67 Palestinian and 7 Israeli Civilians Killed in Conflict

[Muzehnaya]

Theoretically the egyptians could ship some through Rafah.

I'm skeptical the Egyptian government would be keen on resupplying Hamas or Gaza in general.

That, and the fact that I don't think the Egyptian government is too keen on agitating Israel. They've maintained a peace treaty for a number of years, and Sisi reaffirmed that he would maintain the treaty in July of 2014.

[Celritannia]

So the people don;t need fuel to survive because, god forbid, it might help hamas.

I'm not saying it's right, but this isn't really an uncommon situation when a war goes from being fought conventionally to being fought unconventionally and to the bitter end. World War II, especially, had a lot to do with grinding down the morale on the homefront through systematic bombing and the destruction of vital economic infrastructure. The Syrian Civil War and the Yemeni Civil War have followed similar trajectories, albeit with substantially higher casualties. Egypt is not on friendly terms with Hamas given past agitations, and I doubt the Egyptian government is going to rush to assist an Islamist militant group.

And Israel always tries and take more from both the people of Palestine and the people of the Gaza Strip. They are practical bullies.
Is Hamas good? Of course not. But they want to remove the Israeli occupation.
Israel will always do what it can to take land off the people in their spheres of influence.



Israel will never be satisfied until all those green areas are theirs.

[Fahran]

By all accounts egypt is pushing itself away from the islamic world

This is something of a contentious claim. The Muslim Brotherhood seems to have actually gained a significant amount of influence in recent years. Mohammed Morsi and the Freedom and Justice Party, which won democratic elections in 2011 and 2012, had strong connections to the Muslim Brotherhood and could be described in most contexts as Islamist in their political orientation.

[Saiwania]

Israel will never be satisfied until all those green areas are theirs.

Isn't that just from Israel winning the major wars in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973? I would think that it is fair to say that Palestine would have more land if the deal from Israel was agreed to and Oslo was fully followed by both sides.

[Celritannia]

Israel will never be satisfied until all those green areas are theirs.

Isn't that just from Israel winning the major wars in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973? I would think that it is fair to say that Palestine would have more land if the deal from Israel was agreed to and Oslo was fully followed by both sides.

And who supported Israel? Yeah, Israel could not have won without the millions of Dollars from their allies now, could they?

Israel has now built up a strong military from ambitions military investment from the US, and the Palestinians have little to no support.

[Fahran]

And Israel always tries and take more from both the people of Palestine and the people of the Gaza Strip. They are practical bullies.

Did you mean the West Bank? I would consider both the West Bank and Gaza Strip a proto-state that could hopefully one day evolve into a sovereign Palestine, though that's conditional on mutual recognition, population transfers, and the conclusive settlement of the ongoing land dispute.

Is Hamas good? Of course not. But they want to remove the Israeli occupation.

Hamas has traditionally viewed Israel's existence within internationally recognized borders as an occupation, and have meant something quite different from neoliberals when they talk about occupation - since Americans and Brits tend to use the term to denote the ongoing military occupation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Gaza itself is not really under occupation. It is under blockade and is currently being bombed, but it's not really controlled by Israel internally except in so far as it relies on the import Israeli services.

Israel will always do what it can to take land off the people in their spheres of influence.

Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsula and disengaged from Gaza completely in 2006. All subsequent interactions with Gaza have been informed by the fact that any attempt to lessen restrictions tends to result in an uptick in violence against Israel.

(Image)

Israel will never be satisfied until all those green areas are theirs.

This image is deceptive because it counts only areas inhabitted by Jews as "Jewish land." A lot of the "Palestinian land" was not actually owned or inhabitted by Palestinians in the same respect. Especially in the Negev region. The suggestion that uninhabitted land was Palestinian by default is fundamentally dishonest. And Israel has offered most of the West Bank and Gaza to the PA on two occasions. Likud has only shifted to oppose a two-state solution in the past decade.

[Fahran]

And who supported Israel? Yeah, Israel could not have won without the millions of Dollars from their allies now, could they?

Israel didn't enjoy broad American support until 1973, which, coincidentally, is around the time the Arab-Israeli Conflict narrowed into the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

[Fahran]

That, and the fact that I don't think the Egyptian government is too keen on agitating Israel. They've maintained a peace treaty for a number of years, and Sisi reaffirmed that he would maintain the treaty in July of 2014.

That's only likely to change if we get Arab Spring 2: Electric Boogaloo.

[Fartsniffage]

And who supported Israel? Yeah, Israel could not have won without the millions of Dollars from their allies now, could they?

Israel didn't enjoy broad American support until 1973, which, coincidentally, is around the time the Arab-Israeli Conflict narrowed into the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

What do you think the Palestinians should do?

[Saiwania]

And who supported Israel? Yeah, Israel could not have won without the millions of Dollars from their allies now, could they?
Israel has now built up a strong military from ambitions military investment from the US, and the Palestinians have little to no support.

Israel won in 1948 and 1967 fair and square, and didn't get much help from the US either until after 1973 from what I've found. Israel basically needed to prove that it was a viable state in the region for the long term, before other countries would decide to perhaps back them as part of the Cold War or for other reasons.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/to ... 49-present

Assuming the figures are right.

[Celritannia]

And Israel always tries and take more from both the people of Palestine and the people of the Gaza Strip. They are practical bullies.

Did you mean the West Bank? I would consider both the West Bank and Gaza Strip a proto-state that could hopefully one day evolve into a sovereign Palestine, though that's conditional on mutual recognition, population transfers, and the conclusive settlement of the ongoing land dispute.

Is Hamas good? Of course not. But they want to remove the Israeli occupation.

Hamas has traditionally viewed Israel's existence within internationally recognized borders as an occupation, and have meant something quite different from neoliberals when they talk about occupation - since Americans and Brits tend to use the term to denote the ongoing military occupation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Gaza itself is not really under occupation. It is under blockade and is currently being bombed, but it's not really controlled by Israel internally except in so far as it relies on the import Israeli services.

Israel will always do what it can to take land off the people in their spheres of influence.

Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsula and disengaged from Gaza completely in 2006. All subsequent interactions with Gaza have been informed by the fact that any attempt to lessen restrictions tends to result in an uptick in violence against Israel.

(Image)

Israel will never be satisfied until all those green areas are theirs.

This image is deceptive because it counts only areas inhabitted by Jews as "Jewish land." A lot of the "Palestinian land" was not actually owned or inhabitted by Palestinians in the same respect. Especially in the Negev region. The suggestion that uninhabitted land was Palestinian by default is fundamentally dishonest. And Israel has offered most of the West Bank and Gaza to the PA on two occasions. Likud has only shifted to oppose a two-state solution in the past decade.

No, I mean Palestine (although it does refer to both the west bank and the gaza strip, but w/e)
Israel does not want them to be a Sovereign state, no matter what.
Although, legally, Palestine is a rightful sovereign state, but is under the authority and occupation of Israel.

Yeah, that still is classed as occupation, since Israel has all the authority over it.

Considering how often Israel and certain Israel settlers back track on their deals made to the State of Palestine, yeah, I can see why they don't trust the 2 State Solution while Warhawks control the Israeli government.

[Fahran]

What do you think the Palestinians should do?

Accept the deal that Ariel Sharon offered in 2005 as a starting point for negotiations, demand the withdrawal of Israeli settlements from the West Bank, insist on the continued provision of resources and services from Israel as a condition for peace, accept the loss of secular control over East Jerusalem and small portions of the West Bank as the cost of the 1967 War, insist on respect for religious authorities and pilgrimage rights over respective holy sites, and negotiate the provision of economic development aid from the United States and the Arab League.

That said, with Bibi and Likud in charge, that deal may be beyond reach at this point.

[Celritannia]

And who supported Israel? Yeah, Israel could not have won without the millions of Dollars from their allies now, could they?
Israel has now built up a strong military from ambitions military investment from the US, and the Palestinians have little to no support.

Israel won in 1948 and 1967 fair and square, and didn't get much help from the US either until after 1973 from what I've found. Israel basically needed to prove that it was a viable state in the region for the long term, before other countries would decide to perhaps back them as part of the Cold War or for other reasons.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/to ... 49-present

Assuming the figures are right.

Israel won because of its allies, and it certainly did no win fairly.

Your link does not provide black operations or hidden agendas behind the aid, but we all know how much the US helped out the Israelis covertly.

[Herzpunkt]

Israel won in 1948 and 1967 fair and square, and didn't get much help from the US either until after 1973 from what I've found. Israel basically needed to prove that it was a viable state in the region for the long term, before other countries would decide to perhaps back them as part of the Cold War or for other reasons.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/to ... 49-present

Assuming the figures are right.

Israel won because of its allies, so it certainly did no win faily.

Are you crying because israel has strong freinds?

[Celritannia]

Israel won because of its allies, so it certainly did no win faily.

Are you crying because israel has strong freinds?

No, I'm pissed off at how its allies can allow Israel to do this while it willingly removes dictators for this sort of thing.

[Fahran]

No, I mean Palestine (although it does refer to both the west bank and the gaza strip, but w/e)

I was thrown off by you refering to both Palestine and Gaza.

Israel does not want them to be a Sovereign state, no matter what.

Israel offered a path to sovereignty back in 2005. It was rejected out-of-hand in what I consider the biggest blunder in the history of the PLO. It would have been a significant achievement. Really, we were extremely close to a conclusive peace settlement up until the Second Intifada. Intransigence simply got in the way.

Although, legally, Palestine is a rightful sovereign state, but is under the authority and occupation of Israel.

That's a lot more nebulous than you make out.

Yeah, that still is classed as occupation, since Israel has all the authority over it.

Israel does not have all the authority over Gaza. The region is governed internally and gets to allocate the resources it does receive without substantial interference, which is why Hamas has been able to invest in its war effort.

Considering how often Israel and certain Israel settlers back track on their deals made to the State of Palestine, yeah, I can see why they don't trust the 2 State Solution while Warhawks control the Israeli government.

There's literally been no back-tracking on deals despite claims to the contrary. At this point, the Likudnikkim simply have no vested interest in pursuing further negotiations as laid out by the Oslo Accords because there's a widespread perception that said negotiations failed in the early 2000s.

[Kowani]

Number of displaced Palestinians hits 58,000

[Saiwania]

Israel won because of its allies, and it certainly did no win fairly. Your link does not provide black operations or hidden agendas behind the aid, but we all know how much the US helped out the Israelis covertly.

I'd say Israel at least won 1948 entirely on its own. The British and entire rest of the world certainly didn't help them. British were keen to not have the Mandate of Palestine anymore and were withdrawing from the region. Everybody expected the Arab Coalition to push them into the sea but the Zionist side won against all expectations.

[Celritannia]

No, I mean Palestine (although it does refer to both the west bank and the gaza strip, but w/e)

I was thrown off by you refering to both Palestine and Gaza.

Israel does not want them to be a Sovereign state, no matter what.

Israel offered a path to sovereignty back in 2005. It was rejected out-of-hand in what I consider the biggest blunder in the history of the PLO. It would have been a significant achievement. Really, we were extremely close to a conclusive peace settlement up until the Second Intifada. Intransigence simply got in the way.

Although, legally, Palestine is a rightful sovereign state, but is under the authority and occupation of Israel.

That's a lot more nebulous than you make out.

Yeah, that still is classed as occupation, since Israel has all the authority over it.

Israel does not have all the authority over Gaza. The region is governed internally and gets to allocate the resources it does receive without substantial interference, which is why Hamas has been able to invest in its war effort.

Considering how often Israel and certain Israel settlers back track on their deals made to the State of Palestine, yeah, I can see why they don't trust the 2 State Solution while Warhawks control the Israeli government.

There's literally been no back-tracking on deals despite claims to the contrary. At this point, the Likudnikkim simply have no vested interest in pursuing further negotiations as laid out by the Oslo Accords because there's a widespread perception that said negotiations failed in the early 2000s.

Fair.

The tensions were already high, especially after the failed Camp David Summit of 2000.

No, not really.

But Israel controls the people going between their enclaves, and between Gaza and the West Bank.
It also has placed partitions up around areas between the Palestine Enclaves and Israel.
Not to mention, despite the majority of the world recognising Palestine as a lawful state, all the western democracies, surprisingly don't. I wonder why.
War effort? Has there been a declaration of war? Or is this an act of terrorism that Israel has decided to punish all of Palestine for?

DEspite the colonial efforts of Israeli settlers though.

[Celritannia]

Israel won because of its allies, and it certainly did no win fairly. Your link does not provide black operations or hidden agendas behind the aid, but we all know how much the US helped out the Israelis covertly.

I'd say Israel at least won 1948 entirely on its own. The British and entire rest of the world certainly didn't help them. British were keen to not have the Mandate of Palestine anymore and were withdrawing from the region. Everybody expected the Arab Coalition to push them into the sea but the Zionist side won against all expectations.

And many Israeli soldiers would have been trained by British Soldiers to deal with threats, wouldn't they? Since it was a protectorate until 1948.

[Herzpunkt]

I'd say Israel at least won 1948 entirely on its own. The British and entire rest of the world certainly didn't help them. British were keen to not have the Mandate of Palestine anymore and were withdrawing from the region. Everybody expected the Arab Coalition to push them into the sea but the Zionist side won against all expectations.

And many Israeli soldiers would have been trained by British Soldiers to deal with threats, wouldn't they? Since it was a protectorate until 1948.

Iran arms and trains hamas, your point?

[Fartsniffage]

I'd say Israel at least won 1948 entirely on its own. The British and entire rest of the world certainly didn't help them. British were keen to not have the Mandate of Palestine anymore and were withdrawing from the region. Everybody expected the Arab Coalition to push them into the sea but the Zionist side won against all expectations.

And many Israeli soldiers would have been trained by British Soldiers to deal with threats, wouldn't they? Since it was a protectorate until 1948.

Not at all. They bombed the shit out of British positions. We didn't train any Jews in 47/48.

[Celritannia]

And many Israeli soldiers would have been trained by British Soldiers to deal with threats, wouldn't they? Since it was a protectorate until 1948.

Iran arms and trains hamas, your point?

I meant in 1946, not now.
Although, I'd like evidence to back up that claim.

[Celritannia]

And many Israeli soldiers would have been trained by British Soldiers to deal with threats, wouldn't they? Since it was a protectorate until 1948.

Not at all. They bombed the shit out of British positions. We didn't train any Jews in 47/48.

But many who fought against the British post-WW2 would have fought with the British before then.

[Fartsniffage]

And many Israeli soldiers would have been trained by British Soldiers to deal with threats, wouldn't they? Since it was a protectorate until 1948.

Iran arms and trains hamas, your point?

You clearly have no idea about the history. Feel free to shut up and not look stupid.