67 Palestinian and 7 Israeli Civilians Killed in Conflict

[G-Tech Corporation]

Found some interesting statistics for those who seem to be claiming that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians as a matter of military policy: civilian casualty ratios. During the Chechen Wars, Russia averaged 8.9 civilians killed for every militant. The UN effort in Kosovo had a ratio of more like 4:1. The Iraq War had a ratio of 3:1. Estimates for various points in the Palestinian conflict have ranged as high as 1:30, however, and only ever as low as 1:1.

Thoughts? Discuss?

At a glance it'd seem to have no basis in reality given every time one of these things the majority of Palestinian casualties seem to be random families just caught up in the airstrikes.

Like, 40+ Palestinians were bombed to shit earlier and 16 of them were kids who presumably were not grizzled militants.

At present we don’t have any reliable casualty figures for Palestinian military fatalities, and information coming out of the Strip is understandable focused on human tragedy in a manner which does not offend Hamas - but B’tselem is an Israeli anti-war human rights group, and they have quite reliable figures on civilian casualties in most recent conflicts in Palestine. I find their numbers are usually fairly credible, compared to the Palestinian Red Crescent or official IDF figures.

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... e-of-event

[Ifreann]

At a glance it'd seem to have no basis in reality given every time one of these things the majority of Palestinian casualties seem to be random families just caught up in the airstrikes.

Like, 40+ Palestinians were bombed to shit earlier and 16 of them were kids who presumably were not grizzled militants.

At present we don’t have any reliable casualty figures for Palestinian military fatalities, and information coming out of the Strip is understandable focused on human tragedy in a manner which does not offend Hamas - but B’tselem is an Israeli anti-war human rights group, and they have quite reliable figures on civilian casualties in most recent conflicts in Palestine. I find their numbers are usually fairly credible, compared to the Palestinian Red Crescent or official IDF figures.

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... e-of-event

Maybe there's something I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to be to be anything like a civilian:militant ratio of 1:30, nor even 1:1. That looks to me more like 2:1, closer to 3:1 if we count cops in cop shops as civilian causalities and not militants. And that's just Operation Cast Lead.

[Jutlop]

At a glance it'd seem to have no basis in reality given every time one of these things the majority of Palestinian casualties seem to be random families just caught up in the airstrikes.

Like, 40+ Palestinians were bombed to shit earlier and 16 of them were kids who presumably were not grizzled militants.

At present we don’t have any reliable casualty figures for Palestinian military fatalities, and information coming out of the Strip is understandable focused on human tragedy in a manner which does not offend Hamas - but B’tselem is an Israeli anti-war human rights group, and they have quite reliable figures on civilian casualties in most recent conflicts in Palestine. I find their numbers are usually fairly credible, compared to the Palestinian Red Crescent or official IDF figures.

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... e-of-event

b'tselem is very reliable I'll give you that but the militaint to civillian ratio is not very good

[G-Tech Corporation]

At present we don’t have any reliable casualty figures for Palestinian military fatalities, and information coming out of the Strip is understandable focused on human tragedy in a manner which does not offend Hamas - but B’tselem is an Israeli anti-war human rights group, and they have quite reliable figures on civilian casualties in most recent conflicts in Palestine. I find their numbers are usually fairly credible, compared to the Palestinian Red Crescent or official IDF figures.

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fata ... e-of-event

Maybe there's something I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to be to be anything like a civilian:militant ratio of 1:30, nor even 1:1. That looks to me more like 2:1, closer to 3:1 if we count cops in cop shops as civilian causalities and not militants. And that's just Operation Cast Lead.

The statistics at 1:30 were from 2008, but Operation Cast Lead was 1.2:1, not anywhere near two. But hey, if that’s not a good enough ratio, despite being absolutely exceptionally historically low for any modern force fighting in an urban area - let’s talk the current conflict.

188 Palestinian casualties, at best estimation. What do you think would be a reasonable interference for the number of Hamas fighters who have killed in that figure? No input from me, just a guesstimate - do you think the Israelis have killed 5 Hamas fighters? 20? 50?

[Insaanistan]

Jordanians arrested after crossing border into Israel carrying knives
Lebanese protester killed by Israeli police near the border
Egypt opens the Rafah crossing to allow Palestinians students and injured Palestinians to receive medical attention

[Ifreann]

Maybe there's something I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to be to be anything like a civilian:militant ratio of 1:30, nor even 1:1. That looks to me more like 2:1, closer to 3:1 if we count cops in cop shops as civilian causalities and not militants. And that's just Operation Cast Lead.

The statistics at 1:30 were from 2008, but Operation Cast Lead was 1.2:1, not anywhere near two.

How's that? 764 Palestinians killed who did not take part in hostilities to 352 Palestinians killed who did, 2.1:1. Do Palestinian police officers killed in their police stations count as military casualties?

But hey, if that’s not a good enough ratio, despite being absolutely exceptionally historically low for any modern force fighting in an urban area - let’s talk the current conflict.

188 Palestinian casualties, at best estimation. What do you think would be a reasonable interference for the number of Hamas fighters who have killed in that figure? No input from me, just a guesstimate - do you think the Israelis have killed 5 Hamas fighters? 20? 50?

I dunno, is it 6,000 somehow? Is Israel claiming every brick in every collapsed building to be a Hamas commander?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Is Israel claiming every brick in every collapsed building to be a Hamas commander?

I mean

Kinda, yeah

[G-Tech Corporation]

The statistics at 1:30 were from 2008, but Operation Cast Lead was 1.2:1, not anywhere near two.

How's that? 764 Palestinians killed who did not take part in hostilities to 352 Palestinians killed who did, 2.1:1. Do Palestinian police officers killed in their police stations count as military casualties?

But hey, if that’s not a good enough ratio, despite being absolutely exceptionally historically low for any modern force fighting in an urban area - let’s talk the current conflict.

188 Palestinian casualties, at best estimation. What do you think would be a reasonable interference for the number of Hamas fighters who have killed in that figure? No input from me, just a guesstimate - do you think the Israelis have killed 5 Hamas fighters? 20? 50?

I dunno, is it 6,000 somehow? Is Israel claiming every brick in every collapsed building to be a Hamas commander?

Depends who you ask, really. Hamas paid, armed, and controlled police units in the Strip - and there’s great evidence that large proportions of the police killed during the Gaza War had dual identities as policemen and members of the Brigades. I mean, Hamas’ official instructions to the police officers in case of ground incursions by Israeli forces were to respond with armed force.

But hey, we can put that aside. Let’s go with your figure of 2.1:1. Can we draw the conclusion that the Israelis are deliberately attempting to butcher the civilian populace of Palestine if their casualty ratio is equivalent to the best on record in the modern era?

As for commanders and bricks, I’m not saying anything about official IDF figures. I just want to hear your guesstimate. Less than 6000 is a perfectly fine figure.

[Ifreann]

How's that? 764 Palestinians killed who did not take part in hostilities to 352 Palestinians killed who did, 2.1:1. Do Palestinian police officers killed in their police stations count as military casualties?

I dunno, is it 6,000 somehow? Is Israel claiming every brick in every collapsed building to be a Hamas commander?

Depends who you ask, really. Hamas paid, armed, and controlled police units in the Strip - and there’s great evidence that large proportions of the police killed during the Gaza War had dual identities as policemen and members of the Brigades. I mean, Hamas’ official instructions to the police officers in case of ground incursions by Israeli forces were to respond with armed force.

But hey, we can put that aside. Let’s go with your figure of 2.1:1. Can we draw the conclusion that the Israelis are deliberately attempting to butcher the civilian populace of Palestine if their casualty ratio is equivalent to the best on record in the modern era?

Yes, bombing a hospital is still targetting civilians even if there are Hamas fighters killed in the bombing.

As for commanders and bricks, I’m not saying anything about official IDF figures. I just want to hear your guesstimate. Less than 6000 is a perfectly fine figure.

I wouldn't care to guess, I don't see that it's important.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Depends who you ask, really. Hamas paid, armed, and controlled police units in the Strip - and there’s great evidence that large proportions of the police killed during the Gaza War had dual identities as policemen and members of the Brigades. I mean, Hamas’ official instructions to the police officers in case of ground incursions by Israeli forces were to respond with armed force.

But hey, we can put that aside. Let’s go with your figure of 2.1:1. Can we draw the conclusion that the Israelis are deliberately attempting to butcher the civilian populace of Palestine if their casualty ratio is equivalent to the best on record in the modern era?

Yes, bombing a hospital is still targetting civilians even if there are Hamas fighters killed in the bombing.

As for commanders and bricks, I’m not saying anything about official IDF figures. I just want to hear your guesstimate. Less than 6000 is a perfectly fine figure.

I wouldn't care to guess, I don't see that it's important.

Then what is the difference between conducting military operations in an urban setting and deliberately targeting civilians? Since I’m sure you’ll agree that the Gaza Strip isn’t composed completely of hospitals.

Let’s go with a conservative figure then; I’ll say, for purposes of illustration, that no Hamas fighters have been killed in airstrikes which killed civilians. The Israeli military only killed civilians there, all 188 of them.

Now let’s add in the estimated number of militants killed in bunker strikes. Hamas is claiming only 200 fighters killed. Israel says 800. Red Crescent says 400. Let’s go with that low figure, again to illustrate this argument.

If 188 Palestinian civilians have died in this conflict, and 200 Hamas fighters have been killed, where does that leave the IDF’s civilian casualty ratio?

[Ifreann]

Yes, bombing a hospital is still targetting civilians even if there are Hamas fighters killed in the bombing.


I wouldn't care to guess, I don't see that it's important.

Then what is the difference between conducting military operations in an urban setting and deliberately targeting civilians?

Military operations that reduce large buildings to rubble are obviously so indiscriminate that they cannot reasonably be said to not be targetting civilians.

Since I’m sure you’ll agree that the Gaza Strip isn’t composed completely of hospitals.

Certainly less so than it used to be.

Let’s go with a conservative figure then; I’ll say, for purposes of illustration, that no Hamas fighters have been killed in airstrikes which killed civilians. The Israeli military only killed civilians there, all 188 of them.

Now let’s add in the estimated number of militants killed in bunker strikes. Hamas is claiming only 200 fighters killed. Israel says 800. Red Crescent says 400. Let’s go with that low figure, again to illustrate this argument.

If 188 Palestinian civilians have died in this conflict, and 200 Hamas fighters have been killed, where does that leave the IDF’s civilian casualty ratio?

Again, I don't see that it's important.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Then what is the difference between conducting military operations in an urban setting and deliberately targeting civilians?

Military operations that reduce large buildings to rubble are obviously so indiscriminate that they cannot reasonably be said to not be targetting civilians.

Since I’m sure you’ll agree that the Gaza Strip isn’t composed completely of hospitals.

Certainly less so than it used to be.

Let’s go with a conservative figure then; I’ll say, for purposes of illustration, that no Hamas fighters have been killed in airstrikes which killed civilians. The Israeli military only killed civilians there, all 188 of them.

Now let’s add in the estimated number of militants killed in bunker strikes. Hamas is claiming only 200 fighters killed. Israel says 800. Red Crescent says 400. Let’s go with that low figure, again to illustrate this argument.

If 188 Palestinian civilians have died in this conflict, and 200 Hamas fighters have been killed, where does that leave the IDF’s civilian casualty ratio?

Again, I don't see that it's important.

Hmm. Okay. So, I don’t want to put words in your mouth here. Can you think of a different military who might be more capable of conducting operations with minimal civilian casualties?

[Ifreann]

Military operations that reduce large buildings to rubble are obviously so indiscriminate that they cannot reasonably be said to not be targetting civilians.


Certainly less so than it used to be.

Again, I don't see that it's important.

Hmm. Okay. So, I don’t want to put words in your mouth here. Can you think of a different military who might be more capable of conducting operations with minimal civilian casualties?

I expect that the missiles operate the same way regardless of what flag is painted on them. I really cannot fathom what you are getting at here. Is this meant to be some kind of defence of Israel? Arguing that their war crimes are no worse than the war crimes of other nations?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm. Okay. So, I don’t want to put words in your mouth here. Can you think of a different military who might be more capable of conducting operations with minimal civilian casualties?

I expect that the missiles operate the same way regardless of what flag is painted on them. I really cannot fathom what you are getting at here. Is this meant to be some kind of defence of Israel? Arguing that their war crimes are no worse than the war crimes of other nations?

Oh hardly. I’m mainly interested to see what amount of civilian casualties in urban warfare you would consider reasonable.

[Ifreann]

I expect that the missiles operate the same way regardless of what flag is painted on them. I really cannot fathom what you are getting at here. Is this meant to be some kind of defence of Israel? Arguing that their war crimes are no worse than the war crimes of other nations?

Oh hardly. I’m mainly interested to see what amount of civilian casualties in urban warfare you would consider reasonable.

I wouldn't judge it numerically.

[Herzpunkt]

Hmm. Okay. So, I don’t want to put words in your mouth here. Can you think of a different military who might be more capable of conducting operations with minimal civilian casualties?

I expect that the missiles operate the same way regardless of what flag is painted on them. I really cannot fathom what you are getting at here. Is this meant to be some kind of defence of Israel? Arguing that their war crimes are no worse than the war crimes of other nations?

People have spent pages here doing exactly that for the Palestine side when hamas attacks civilians

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh hardly. I’m mainly interested to see what amount of civilian casualties in urban warfare you would consider reasonable.

I wouldn't judge it numerically.

How would you judge it then? Case by case? By what criterion?

[Herzpunkt]

https://youtu.be/GLSqkFmhCbg

Based

[Takomah]

Thank fuck for Iron Dome then.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I expect that the missiles operate the same way regardless of what flag is painted on them. I really cannot fathom what you are getting at here. Is this meant to be some kind of defence of Israel? Arguing that their war crimes are no worse than the war crimes of other nations?

People have spent pages here doing exactly that for the Palestine side when hamas attacks civilians

Question: Who? Cause I don't think any of us like hamas.

[Takomah]

People have spent pages here doing exactly that for the Palestine side when hamas attacks civilians

Question: Who? Cause I don't think any of us like hamas.

Well...

Not me in any case.

[Herzpunkt]

People have spent pages here doing exactly that for the Palestine side when hamas attacks civilians

Question: Who? Cause I don't think any of us like hamas.

I didnt say “like” im saying that people have used “proportionality” as a defence against israel

[Ifreann]

I wouldn't judge it numerically.

How would you judge it then? Case by case? By what criterion?

¯\(°_o)/¯

[G-Tech Corporation]

How would you judge it then? Case by case? By what criterion?

¯\(°_o)/¯

I mean, I don’t like civilian casualties either. But I don’t think anyone does. But they do kinda tend to happen when modern warfare occurs. And the Israelis seem to be trying pretty hard to avoid them.

[Ifreann]

¯\(°_o)/¯

I mean, I don’t like civilian casualties either. But I don’t think anyone does. But they do kinda tend to happen when modern warfare occurs. And the Israelis seem to be trying pretty hard to avoid them.

I don't really think that they are trying very hard to avoid them.