NationStates

Shofercia wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
The danger is, especially if excluded from international competitions, serious players are less inclined to join these teams and it all becomes a kind of traveling Harlem Globetrotters experience.

Wouldn't there still be excellent teams in the Champions League? There's has to be more than twelve elite teams in Europe.

I mean there are excellent teams in the CL, so much so that they might place better than these teams, such as Atalanta who are currently in 3rd in Serie A.

And Ajax.. their run a couple years ago of young, exciting attacking players..

The fact there are excellent teams is why they're looking to create this, to exclude their chance of joining the most lucrative competitions, they begrudge the Ajax's and Atalanta's, the Leicester's and the Sevilla's..

Shofercia wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:They're just trying to ruin the entire sport all to satisfy the whims of some power-hungry billionaires who own the elites. UEFA's Swiss Model proposal isn't good either, it's another dumpster fire designed to screw over the "small" teams.

Just want to point out that discussion about the Swiss Model vs the current model is 100% on topic if you want to go into more detail about it.

Teams like Ajax, Porto, Benfica, Zenit, Shakhtar, Atalanta, Leicester, Lyon, and many other smaller teams are essentially fucked no matter what. Nottingham Forest once won two European titles. Now they're in the Championship. Conversely, Man City hasn't done much but now they have Middle Eastern owners. Plastic clubs with zero European pedigree can get in if they have the money and those that once made European history don't because they aren't rich or prestigious enough.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Just want to point out that discussion about the Swiss Model vs the current model is 100% on topic if you want to go into more detail about it.

Teams like Ajax, Porto, Benfica, Zenit, Shakhtar, Atalanta, Leicester, Lyon, and many other smaller teams are essentially fucked no matter what. Nottingham Forest once won two European titles. Now they're in the Championship. Conversely, Man City hasn't done much but now they have Middle Eastern owners. Plastic clubs with zero European pedigree can get in if they have the money and those that once made European history don't because they aren't rich or prestigious enough.

Why not create a Super League with CL winners only? If they want the "elite only" tournament, there's an idea
Obviously it would still destroy football anyway

The Champions League wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:Teams like Ajax, Porto, Benfica, Zenit, Shakhtar, Atalanta, Leicester, Lyon, and many other smaller teams are essentially fucked no matter what. Nottingham Forest once won two European titles. Now they're in the Championship. Conversely, Man City hasn't done much but now they have Middle Eastern owners. Plastic clubs with zero European pedigree can get in if they have the money and those that once made European history don't because they aren't rich or prestigious enough.

Why not create a Super League with CL winners only? If they want the "elite only" tournament, there's an idea
Obviously it would still destroy football anyway

Then the likes of Red Star Belgrade and FCSB will finish dead last alongside Nottingham Forest, but that would be much better than the ESL. Still a crappy one nonetheless, but that one would have history compared to having Arsenal and Tottenham in.

The Champions League wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:Teams like Ajax, Porto, Benfica, Zenit, Shakhtar, Atalanta, Leicester, Lyon, and many other smaller teams are essentially fucked no matter what. Nottingham Forest once won two European titles. Now they're in the Championship. Conversely, Man City hasn't done much but now they have Middle Eastern owners. Plastic clubs with zero European pedigree can get in if they have the money and those that once made European history don't because they aren't rich or prestigious enough.

Why not create a Super League with CL winners only? If they want the "elite only" tournament, there's an idea
Obviously it would still destroy football anyway

Cool, we can cut out Arsenal for a start, given they've never won and are currently 9th in the league..

Bombadil wrote:

The Champions League wrote:Why not create a Super League with CL winners only? If they want the "elite only" tournament, there's an idea
Obviously it would still destroy football anyway

Cool, we can cut out Arsenal for a start, given they've never won and are currently 9th in the league..

We can also cut out City in that scenario given they never were relevant until the UAE takeover.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
Cool, we can cut out Arsenal for a start, given they've never won and are currently 9th in the league..

We can also cut out City in that scenario given they never were relevant until the UAE takeover.

I've always had hope that the Microsoft people who own the Seattle Seahawks could buy my team - Cambridge United - since they're pretty heavily invested around Cambridge for research. At least sponsor them.

Then we could buy some fancy players, pay our way into this competition despite never having played in the Premier League or European competition..

..it makes a mockery of football.

Bombadil wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:We can also cut out City in that scenario given they never were relevant until the UAE takeover.

I've always had hope that the Microsoft people who own the Seattle Seahawks could buy my team - Cambridge United - since they're pretty heavily invested around Cambridge for research. At least sponsor them.

Then we could buy some fancy players, pay our way into this competition despite never having played in the Premier League or European competition..

..it makes a mockery of football.

And have the one and only XBOX as the kit sponsor
Man, I loved that jersey for some reason

I love how educational this thread became. And yeah, the Swiss Model is just bizarre. It takes a special kind of scumbaggery to say "we don't want the elite clubs ripping anyone off, that's our job!" I like the idea of a 17 game CL instead of a 13 game CL, but the rest of it is just...

I've always viewed Agnelli, Florentino Perez, City Football Group, and Qatar as the Four Horsemen of Owners in football. We know Qatar will inevitably join the elite competition, but of course Perez and Agnelli are the most dangerous men to football other than Ceferin and Infantino.

If UEFA had any sense, they'd switch the Champions League back to a knockout tournament for the top-tier domestic league champions like it used to be, and just sanction the Super League as an invitational tournament. Because we all know they're just about the money too.

Shofercia wrote:I love how educational this thread became. And yeah, the Swiss Model is just bizarre. It takes a special kind of scumbaggery to say "we don't want the elite clubs ripping anyone off, that's our job!" I like the idea of a 17 game CL instead of a 13 game CL, but the rest of it is just...

One major oddity of this planet is that the US, which likes to tout free-market capitalism, has a pretty socialist sporting construct, with the draft and etc., whereas socialist Europe has a hyper-capitalist sporting structure.

To the extent that, really, the MUs, Liverpools, AC Milan's, Barcelona's etc., are products of a degree of circumstance and luck.. born to wealthy cities that have a large working fanbase, and owe their pedigree to hard-working ancestry.. now they consider themselves some sort of privileged elite and want to shut themselves off from the common teams so as to accrue more wealth to themselves. Seems they'll allow nouveau riche lottery winners like Man C in as well.

London - 3 teams
Manchester - 2 teams (Liverpool right next door and built on the same cotton slave trade)
Milan - 2 teams (Juventus just down the road)
Madrid - 2 teams

I mean that's 11 teams of the 12 from essentially 4 areas..

Bombadil wrote:

Shofercia wrote:I love how educational this thread became. And yeah, the Swiss Model is just bizarre. It takes a special kind of scumbaggery to say "we don't want the elite clubs ripping anyone off, that's our job!" I like the idea of a 17 game CL instead of a 13 game CL, but the rest of it is just...

One major oddity of this planet is that the US, which likes to tout free-market capitalism, has a pretty socialist sporting construct, with the draft and etc., whereas socialist Europe has a hyper-capitalist sporting structure.

To the extent that, really, the MUs, Liverpools, AC Milan's, Barcelona's etc., are products of a degree of circumstance and luck.. born to wealthy cities that have a large working fanbase, and owe their pedigree to hard-working ancestry.. now they consider themselves some sort of privileged elite and want to shut themselves off from the common teams so as to accrue more wealth to themselves. Seems they'll allow nouveau riche lottery winners like Man C in as well.

London - 3 teams
Manchester - 2 teams (Liverpool right next door and built on the same cotton slave trade)
Milan - 2 teams (Juventus just down the road)
Madrid - 2 teams

I mean that's 11 teams of the 12 from essentially 4 areas..

PSG will definitely join in the future and obviously they farm Ligue 1 to death. Before Qatar came in they weren't that relevant while the likes of Lyon, Marseille, and a wide variety of French teams not in Paris won the league title.

The plotters should be rounded up and arrested, and then charged before a special military tribunal.

The Two Jerseys wrote:If UEFA had any sense, they'd switch the Champions League back to a knockout tournament for the top-tier domestic league champions like it used to be, and just sanction the Super League as an invitational tournament. Because we all know they're just about the money too.

The current format has been the most successful format they've implemented, I don't see why they would revert the current 80 format to how it was before, although I do agree the SL could always be an invitational. Hell, there's already that with the ICC, now it would be "official" and not just a random invitational friendly tournament in the preseason.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Bombadil wrote:
One major oddity of this planet is that the US, which likes to tout free-market capitalism, has a pretty socialist sporting construct, with the draft and etc., whereas socialist Europe has a hyper-capitalist sporting structure.

To the extent that, really, the MUs, Liverpools, AC Milan's, Barcelona's etc., are products of a degree of circumstance and luck.. born to wealthy cities that have a large working fanbase, and owe their pedigree to hard-working ancestry.. now they consider themselves some sort of privileged elite and want to shut themselves off from the common teams so as to accrue more wealth to themselves. Seems they'll allow nouveau riche lottery winners like Man C in as well.

London - 3 teams
Manchester - 2 teams (Liverpool right next door and built on the same cotton slave trade)
Milan - 2 teams (Juventus just down the road)
Madrid - 2 teams

I mean that's 11 teams of the 12 from essentially 4 areas..

PSG will definitely join in the future and obviously they farm Ligue 1 to death. Before Qatar came in they weren't that relevant while the likes of Lyon, Marseille, and a wide variety of French teams not in Paris won the league title.

Even damn Montpellier won the title (also the season where Giroud exploded into scene)
That tells you how Ligue 1 was before the Qatari arrival

The Champions League wrote:

The Two Jerseys wrote:If UEFA had any sense, they'd switch the Champions League back to a knockout tournament for the top-tier domestic league champions like it used to be, and just sanction the Super League as an invitational tournament. Because we all know they're just about the money too.

The current format has been the most successful format they've implemented, I don't see why they would revert the current 80 format to how it was before, although I do agree the SL could always be an invitational. Hell, there's already that with the ICC, now it would be "official" and not just a random invitational friendly tournament in the preseason.

A top four friendly competition between the semifinalists wouldn't be too bad, though the Super Cup is obviously the better friendly game in preseason.

The Champions League wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:PSG will definitely join in the future and obviously they farm Ligue 1 to death. Before Qatar came in they weren't that relevant while the likes of Lyon, Marseille, and a wide variety of French teams not in Paris won the league title.

Even damn Montpellier won the title (also the season where Giroud exploded into scene)
That tells you how Ligue 1 was before the Qatari arrival

Even Lens, Bordeaux, Nantes, and Auxerre has won some in the past.

Outer Sparta wrote:

The Champions League wrote:The current format has been the most successful format they've implemented, I don't see why they would revert the current 80 format to how it was before, although I do agree the SL could always be an invitational. Hell, there's already that with the ICC, now it would be "official" and not just a random invitational friendly tournament in the preseason.

A top four friendly competition between the semifinalists wouldn't be too bad, though the Super Cup is obviously the better friendly game in preseason.

The Champions League wrote:Even damn Montpellier won the title (also the season where Giroud exploded into scene)
That tells you how Ligue 1 was before the Qatari arrival

Even Lens, Bordeaux, Nantes, and Auxerre has won some in the past.

Nantes farmed the league when they won though, same with Lyon, Saint-Etienne, Reims, Marseille
The point is, France has always been a farming league but it always was relatively close, PSG has taken the classic French farming to a whole new level

The Champions League wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:A top four friendly competition between the semifinalists wouldn't be too bad, though the Super Cup is obviously the better friendly game in preseason.

Even Lens, Bordeaux, Nantes, and Auxerre has won some in the past.

Nantes farmed the league when they won though, same with Lyon, Saint-Etienne, Reims, Marseille
The point is, France has always been a farming league but it always was relatively close, PSG has taken the classic French farming to a whole new level

It's worse in smaller leagues like in Austria with Salzburg farming them and in Croatia with Dinamo Zagreb, but they're not the subject of an elite ESL since they're not part of the big ones.

Outer Sparta wrote:

The Champions League wrote:Nantes farmed the league when they won though, same with Lyon, Saint-Etienne, Reims, Marseille
The point is, France has always been a farming league but it always was relatively close, PSG has taken the classic French farming to a whole new level

It's worse in smaller leagues like in Austria with Salzburg farming them and in Croatia with Dinamo Zagreb, but they're not the subject of an elite ESL since they're not part of the big ones.

At least Zagreb has history behind them, Salzburg doesn't

The Champions League wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:It's worse in smaller leagues like in Austria with Salzburg farming them and in Croatia with Dinamo Zagreb, but they're not the subject of an elite ESL since they're not part of the big ones.

At least Zagreb has history behind them, Salzburg doesn't

Unforunately, I see Bayern will eventually join them. Red Bull's Leipzig a surefire bet. That would leave PSG as the 15th and last founding team.

Outer Sparta wrote:

The Champions League wrote:At least Zagreb has history behind them, Salzburg doesn't

Unforunately, I see Bayern will eventually join them. Red Bull's Leipzig a surefire bet. That would leave PSG as the 15th and last founding team.

If Bayern or any other German team not named RB Leipzig joins them they'll simply go against the DFB and Bundesliga values exemplified by the 50+1 rule

The Champions League wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:Unforunately, I see Bayern will eventually join them. Red Bull's Leipzig a surefire bet. That would leave PSG as the 15th and last founding team.

If Bayern or any other German team not named RB Leipzig joins them they'll simply go against the DFB and Bundesliga values exemplified by the 50+1 rule

Dortmund better not join and corrupt their values.

Outer Sparta wrote:

The Champions League wrote:If Bayern or any other German team not named RB Leipzig joins them they'll simply go against the DFB and Bundesliga values exemplified by the 50+1 rule

Dortmund better not join and corrupt their values.

The fans have a lot more say in German clubs, so it's not a case of some executive owner who doesn't much care for the team over lining their pockets to just make a call.

Bombadil wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:Dortmund better not join and corrupt their values.

The fans have a lot more say in German clubs, so it's not a case of some executive owner who doesn't much care for the team over lining their pockets to just make a call.

Red Bull is a lot different from typical Bundesliga teams and Red Bull GmBH will gladly accept that ticket to the ESL.