Another Russia themed Hoax...

[Shofercia]

Following 1989 Russia was actually on good terms with the US but it all went sour with NATO's expansion and the colour revolutions.

So, no, you're wrong, the US is exceedingly more hostile today that it has been for the past 30 years.

No. Not really. I remember 2001 when Bush was all gung-ho about putting missile defense on Russia's borders. That was significantly more hostile than anything since.

I'd say Clinton's handling of the Pristina incident was way more hostile, considering it almost led to WWIII, prevented by a British rock star. Someone's got a great story for the grandkids.

You have, by proxy: in Georgia, Syria and Ukraine. The conflicts were initiated by the West/US. Russia just reacted to events.

Ha! Yeah. The US forced them to annex Crimea. Sure thing.

The coups in Ukraine and in Georgia were initiated and supported by the US. Crimea's been wanting to merge with Russia since the break up of the USSR, this was another chance that Crimeans successfully exploited.

[Neanderthaland]

Does anyone even watch TYT anymore?

Anyway, yeah. The US is no saint. But they're not actively gunning to start WW3, or to destabilize the Russian government. In fact, the thing you just pointed out was a good example of the US being more interested in maintaining a stable Russian government then they were in upholding their own values.

The Yeltsin Administration was destabilizing Russia. In 1993 they had tanks shooting at a democratically elected Parliament. In 1996 there was massive election rigging. In 1998 a massive economic crash, primarily due to the actions of the Yeltsin Administration and their cohorts. By 1999, Yeltsin's laissez-faire approach to the Caucasus caused Dagestan to be invaded by Chechnya and the Russian Armed Forces were in full revolt, as was evident by the Pristina Incident. When Yeltsin ordered withdrawal, he was told to "fuck off" but in much stronger language. My point's that supporting the Yeltsin Administration was destabilizing Russia, a nuclear power.

As for TYT, judging by Cenk's ill-fated Congressional run, that produced much lolcowdom and his spat with Bernie Sanders, (Bernie was 100% correct,) probably not.

You're not going to find me defending Yeltsin.

At the same time, though, this is a tail wagging the dog scenario. Where Yeltsin is trying to convince the USA that they have to support him, or else madness and chaos will ensue. Everything will go to hell, and who knows where the nukes will end up. So the US supported him. The US is prone to falling for this sort of bullshit. Ngo Dinh Diem and Saddam Hussein pulled something similar. As did any number of South and Central American despots.

[Shofercia]

The Yeltsin Administration was destabilizing Russia. In 1993 they had tanks shooting at a democratically elected Parliament. In 1996 there was massive election rigging. In 1998 a massive economic crash, primarily due to the actions of the Yeltsin Administration and their cohorts. By 1999, Yeltsin's laissez-faire approach to the Caucasus caused Dagestan to be invaded by Chechnya and the Russian Armed Forces were in full revolt, as was evident by the Pristina Incident. When Yeltsin ordered withdrawal, he was told to "fuck off" but in much stronger language. My point's that supporting the Yeltsin Administration was destabilizing Russia, a nuclear power.

As for TYT, judging by Cenk's ill-fated Congressional run, that produced much lolcowdom and his spat with Bernie Sanders, (Bernie was 100% correct,) probably not.

You're not going to find me defending Yeltsin.

At the same time, though, this is a tail wagging the dog scenario. Where Yeltsin is trying to convince the USA that they have to support him, or else madness and chaos will ensue. Everything will go to hell, and who knows where the nukes will end up. So the US supported him. The US is prone to falling for this sort of bullshit. Ngo Dinh Diem and Saddam Hussein pulled something similar. As did any number of South and Central American despots.

That's a fair counterargument, thank you for engaging in constructive debate.

[Nilokeras]

I've been watching his show, definitely doesn't seem like a grifter.

See his charming behaviour on twitter in the whole 'bring Medicare for All to a vote' kerfuffle for example. Definitely tried to make himself the face of that particular movement on a wave of vitriol.

As for being a ladder climber, what YouTuber isn't?

There are certainly people on social media who aren't doing it for the grift. They just tend not to be injected straight into the eyeballs of people by the algorithms of sites like Youtube quite as much.

[Shofercia]

I've been watching his show, definitely doesn't seem like a grifter.

See his charming behaviour on twitter in the whole 'bring Medicare for All to a vote' kerfuffle for example. Definitely tried to make himself the face of that particular movement on a wave of vitriol.

As for being a ladder climber, what YouTuber isn't?

There are certainly people on social media who aren't doing it for the grift. They just tend not to be injected straight into the eyeballs of people by the algorithms of sites like Youtube quite as much.

Medicare for All should've been brought to a vote. Is that all you got? He's a grifter because he wanted to provide struggling Americans with free medicine, got tired of the political bullshit, and ranted like a newbie? Yeah, not buying that.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Take anything Tucker Carlson says with an enter league of legends competitive match worth of salt.

[Aguaria Major]

It looks like the Russian trolls have found their way to NS as well;

Even as a socialist who is largely disgusted with the US's actions on the international stage (namely our overthrowing democratically-elected governments that we deemed to be "too far to the left" in the past), anyone who believes that letting Russia or China annex land to their hearts' content or letting them become the new hegemonic powers (because, be real, that is what will happen if the US rescinds its overseas influence) will be better for basic human freedoms and rights, much less worker ownership of the economy,

is lying to themselves.

Get outta here with that "Russia is just misunderstood or being used as a boogeyman, therefore the US should let it do what it wants" crap;

Russia is an expansionist fascist dictatorship and China is an expansionist, ultra-capitalist Orwellian surveillance state. If you truly think nations with those values will somehow foster peace, stability, prosperity for anyone but their oligarchs, or extensions of human freedom, then I don't know what to do in order to help your mental condition.

I've yet to see an explanation of how Russia/China would take over the World if the US stops being the World's policeman, but wanting the US to continue to police the world, while supporting socialism in the US which leads to even more taxes on the middle class, will simply drive the productive members of society elsewhere.

1) The only goal of the Chinese at this point is world domination - they have no democratic traditions and their government is a ruthless, moral-less capitalist hellscape that is bent on putting China back in its "rightful place" at the center of world trade like it was in the old days before Europe and the Americas gained status as world powers by any means necessary;

the Chinese believe, thanks to their ancient history as the capital of world trade, that they are inherently superior than the rest of the world, and thus deserve to be on top of it thanks to the old imperial concept of the Mandate from Heaven. And thus, they call the last 150 years of European and then American domination the "Century of Humiliation", as they think the people dictating the world should be THEM.

Xi has openly stated that he would "end the Century of Humiliation" and "force the world to learn more about China". They've done everything short of saying, "yes, we're trying to take over the world." They've learned all their techniques of neocolonialism from European empires as well - extorting nations along the Indian Ocean coast into selling them ports is a copy of the Dutch String of Pearls strategy. They've learned their strategy for dealing with the Uyghurs from the US native American genocide. They've learned the strategy of constantly harassing Taiwan into exhaustion from the Russians.

China has no predilections about a better, more equitable world for humanity either - Xi very openly stated that representative democracy is one of the biggest threats to their existence, and has already demonstrated that he will happily and brutally suppress dissent against has actions on the home front, all the while his nation has 1 out of every 7 people on the planet and thus vastly more people to throw at its foreign resistors.

It has become the dictionary definition of a fascist nation - an ultracapitalist, expansionist, false-populist dictatorship centered around the delusion of bringing the perceived "glory" of the ancient days (in this case, when China was at the center of old-world trade) to the present.

And on top of all of this, China has made itself into the world's factory. This gives them a soft power advantage over the entire world that NATO could only dream of.

The only thing preventing them from achieving world domination at this point is the US; if we rescind our foreign presence, they will take our place, as there will be nothing to stop them.

Russia is only focused on being a regional power and securing its western front against NATO while having access to a warm-water port, so it is doing nothing new. But Russia is best friends with China and will happily jump on the Chinese bandwagon of world domination if it means they can escape irrelevance and take regional territory away from all their neighbors.

Together, they are a very great threat. China threatens the world while Russia threatens Europe.

2) "Raising taxes on the middle class" - if you call people taking in over $400,000/year, "middle class", you are part of what is killing the actual middle class in this country.

3) "Driving the more productive members of society elsewhere"- the repetitiveness of that argument is just never lost on capitalists, is it? Socialism is worker ownership of the economy; if it were mandated by law that every business were employee owned and that employees got to vote, based on yearly company profits minus taxes, to set their salaries (as well who their bosses are, which is called workplace democracy) in addition to the simultaneous implementation of a guaranteed universal basic income, then not only would more people come here to take advantage of the opportunity to live in a society with such low rates of poverty, but it would also grant more individuals than ever before the power to start their own businesses. Plus, when workers are actually payed enough so that they aren't constantly under stress about their rent or next meal, they are undoubtedly more productive. Even Henry Ford knew that, so why you do not is a mystery to me.

A few billionaires might leave, yes, but I say good riddance. Millions of local business owners will take their place and reclaim the market from oligopoly.

[The Sovereign Realist State]

"Dehumanizing" a government isn't a real thing.

I'm sure there are many critiques that have been leveled at the Russians, but I don't think them being "irrational" is a particularly prevalent one. And I sort of wonder where the hell you got that idea. People think Putin is an evil, authoritarian strongman. Not crazy.

LOL, no not crazy, just evil... well that is not dehumanizing at all...

No. Not really. I remember 2001 when Bush was all gung-ho about putting missile defense on Russia's borders. That was significantly more hostile than anything since.

Well that was when it started to become antagonistic, yes. And apart from the Trump hiatus, everytime the neocons are in charge, Russia is a target.

Ha! Yeah. The US forced them to annex Crimea. Sure thing.

The US forced a coup in Ukraine which triggered a conflict, yes. It wasn't Russia who was interested in destabilizing Ukraine, obviously.

I'm guessing that being invaded by the Russians has destabilized them more than the US.

Prior to the invasion (the locals would call it liberation) there was an unconstitutional regime-change campaign, then violent insurrections legitmised by the US, then a violent coup, then repression of the pro-Russian elements, including the banning of any pro-Russian parties, then the persecution of any Yanukovych supporters and the murder of dozens of them as it happened in Odessa AND THEN there was a Russian invasion.

Ukraine was perfectly stable until the US started interfering.

Nice try! You did a good job except for everything you said was wrong.

Such as?

[Nilokeras]

The only goal of the Chinese at this point is world domination - they have no democratic traditions and their government is a ruthless, moral-less capitalist hellscape that is bent on putting China back in its "rightful place" at the center of world trade like

some powerful projection going on here

[Aguaria Major]

The only goal of the Chinese at this point is world domination - they have no democratic traditions and their government is a ruthless, moral-less capitalist hellscape that is bent on putting China back in its "rightful place" at the center of world trade like

some powerful projection going on here

The US is a democracy, if a flawed one. We are also not pursuing some Versailles-esque vendetta based on our perceived ancient superiority.

Plus, nowhere thus far have I said the US isn't out to police the world; I have only said that a world under China will be much worse, and listed all that crap from the post you quoted there to prove to the person I was responding to in it that China is, in fact, bent on world domination.

Please: if you think they are not, then tell me why. Give me examples of their respect for the sovereignty of poorer, smaller nations coughSOUTHCHINASEAcough .

[Nilokeras]

The US is a democracy, if a flawed one. We are also not out on some Versailles-esque vendetta based on our perceived ancient superiority.

American education must be getting real bad if they don't even teach you about the Munroe doctrine anymore

Plus, nowhere thus far have I said the US isn't out to police the world; I have only said that a world under China will be much worse

Worse to who?

[Aguaria Major]

The US is a democracy, if a flawed one. We are also not out on some Versailles-esque vendetta based on our perceived ancient superiority.

American education must be getting real bad if they don't even teach you about the Munroe doctrine anymore

Plus, nowhere thus far have I said the US isn't out to police the world; I have only said that a world under China will be much worse

Worse to who?

1) It's spelled, "Monroe". I take it you're not from the US then?

Plus, the Monroe Doctrine doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the country is a democracy, and is in no way proof that we're somehow, in the present-day, out on a quest of vengeance against the world to re-create a trade empire we used to have but don't anymore.

2) For literally every nation on earth except for the Chinese. That bit was obvious from context. But for starters - how about Vietnam? China considers them a vassal state of culturally inferior people and will gladly jump at the opportunity to annex the entire country. How about Taiwan? They'll go from being a democracy to being part of an Orwellian surveillance state that wants to punish them for their "disobedience" of separating from the PRC.

I also can't help but notice that you didn't actually give me any examples of how China isn't out to dominate the world, like I asked you to.

So please: answer that question and stop pivoting if you want me to treat you as a good-faith actor and not a member of the Wumao.

[Mannixa Prime]

If you don’t realize that the entire US political establishment (both parties and corporate elites) is seeking conflict with Russia what’s the point? You are either a neoliberal or simply ignorant. Not my goal to educate people on basic concepts.

Dude, if you're going to pull things from your ass, wipe them off first.

Ah ignorant and crass, now that’s attractive

[Cannot think of a name]

Dude, if you're going to pull things from your ass, wipe them off first.

Ah ignorant and crass, now that’s attractive

I'm not tryin' to fuck you, dude, I'm trying to get you to support your argument.

But you're not gonna. I get your shtick now. Good luck with that.

[Mannixa Prime]

Ah ignorant and crass, now that’s attractive

I'm not tryin' to fuck you, dude, I'm trying to get you to support your argument.

But you're not gonna. I get your shtick now. Good luck with that.

That escalated quickly! Like I said to the caveman nation should we debate gravity and evolution to?

The US war machine craves conflict with Russia

[Sengoku Americas]

The US is a democracy, if a flawed one. We are also not out on some Versailles-esque vendetta based on our perceived ancient superiority.

American education must be getting real bad if they don't even teach you about the Munroe doctrine anymore

Plus, nowhere thus far have I said the US isn't out to police the world; I have only said that a world under China will be much worse

Worse to who?

Domination is domination, no matter under who. But right now it's quite clear that the US is a larger issue.

[Sengoku Americas]

some powerful projection going on here

The US is a democracy, if a flawed one. We are also not pursuing some Versailles-esque vendetta based on our perceived ancient superiority.

Plus, nowhere thus far have I said the US isn't out to police the world; I have only said that a world under China will be much worse, and listed all that crap from the post you quoted there to prove to the person I was responding to in it that China is, in fact, bent on world domination.

Please: if you think they are not, then tell me why. Give me examples of their respect for the sovereignty of poorer, smaller nations coughSOUTHCHINASEAcough .

American exceptionalism and economic imperialism has been all those hypothetical 'dominations', but they've actually happened in real life. And if you actually believe the US is democratically representative (at least for its common people), then I don't know what to say.

[Sengoku Americas]

I'm not tryin' to fuck you, dude, I'm trying to get you to support your argument.

But you're not gonna. I get your shtick now. Good luck with that.

That escalated quickly! Like I said to the caveman nation should we debate gravity and evolution to?

The US war machine craves conflict with Russia

The US war machine craves conflict in general, hyping up anti-Russian sentiment and trying to support an opposition leader who'd be just as bad if not worse than Putin.

[Cannot think of a name]

I'm not tryin' to fuck you, dude, I'm trying to get you to support your argument.

But you're not gonna. I get your shtick now. Good luck with that.

That escalated quickly! Like I said to the caveman nation should we debate gravity

Drop any object that is not filled with a lighter than air gas equal or greater than the weight of the object. It will fall straight down unless acted on by another force. That is gravity. The Cavendish experiment demonstrates the affect on two bodies.

and evolution to?

A fossil record and DNA testing of species on the planet demonstrates both a relation to other species and the transition of them and their shared ancestors. More direct examples of the mechanism of evolution can be seen in moths in London during the industrial revolution. White moths were predominant until pollution from the factories turned the white tree trunks black, then black moths dominated, reversing again when coal pollution reduced. Similarly with crabs who have shells that look like samuarai face masks because anyone that did the Japanese fishers would throw back. THere are further examples if you need them.

Do you see how quick and easy that was? And evolution and gravity weren't even part of my argument, that was just more random crap your threw in the air in the hopes it would make you sound clever and not desperate and having no idea what you're talking about.

Imagine what could happen if you just answered this question directly? But you can't because you don't fucking know. You assumed we'd all buy this level of vague nonsense bullshit.

The US war machine craves conflict with Russia

But you gotta do better than this. We're not a Hannity call in show or the Yahoo comments section. Support your shit. Or don't. You won't be around long enough for me to care.

[Mannixa Prime]

That escalated quickly! Like I said to the caveman nation should we debate gravity

Drop any object that is not filled with a lighter than air gas equal or greater than the weight of the object. It will fall straight down unless acted on by another force. That is gravity. The Cavendish experiment demonstrates the affect on two bodies.

and evolution to?

A fossil record and DNA testing of species on the planet demonstrates both a relation to other species and the transition of them and their shared ancestors. More direct examples of the mechanism of evolution can be seen in moths in London during the industrial revolution. White moths were predominant until pollution from the factories turned the white tree trunks black, then black moths dominated, reversing again when coal pollution reduced. Similarly with crabs who have shells that look like samuarai face masks because anyone that did the Japanese fishers would throw back. THere are further examples if you need them.

Do you see how quick and easy that was? And evolution and gravity weren't even part of my argument, that was just more random crap your threw in the air in the hopes it would make you sound clever and not desperate and having no idea what you're talking about.

Imagine what could happen if you just answered this question directly? But you can't because you don't fucking know. You assumed we'd all buy this level of vague nonsense bullshit.

The US war machine craves conflict with Russia

But you gotta do better than this. We're not a Hannity call in show or the Yahoo comments section. Support your shit. Or don't. You won't be around long enough for me to care.

Wow somone is mad! Hahah


I won’t be around long enough? Ooh tough guy

[Mannixa Prime]

Sorry I forgot America is suuuuper peaceful and would never hurt a fly! Just ignore everything it’s leaders talk about and it’s history!

[Tsaivao]

Sorry I forgot America is suuuuper peaceful and would never hurt a fly! Just ignore everything it’s leaders talk about and it’s history!

I don't think anyone here is insinuating America only does the right thing and never does any wrong. Not even the strongest of patriots would say that we are a pacifistic nation.

Now, whether or not the Russian bounties are fake, I still think the US should take a stance against China and Russia as they're becoming increasingly destabilizing influences. If we appease them and let them have what they want all the time, we only legitimize their behavior.

[Shofercia]

I've yet to see an explanation of how Russia/China would take over the World if the US stops being the World's policeman, but wanting the US to continue to police the world, while supporting socialism in the US which leads to even more taxes on the middle class, will simply drive the productive members of society elsewhere.

1) The only goal of the Chinese at this point is world domination - they have no democratic traditions and their government is a ruthless, moral-less capitalist hellscape that is bent on putting China back in its "rightful place" at the center of world trade like it was in the old days before Europe and the Americas gained status as world powers by any means necessary;

the Chinese believe, thanks to their ancient history as the capital of world trade, that they are inherently superior than the rest of the world, and thus deserve to be on top of it thanks to the old imperial concept of the Mandate from Heaven. And thus, they call the last 150 years of European and then American domination the "Century of Humiliation", as they think the people dictating the world should be THEM.

Xi has openly stated that he would "end the Century of Humiliation" and "force the world to learn more about China". They've done everything short of saying, "yes, we're trying to take over the world." They've learned all their techniques of neocolonialism from European empires as well - extorting nations along the Indian Ocean coast into selling them ports is a copy of the Dutch String of Pearls strategy. They've learned their strategy for dealing with the Uyghurs from the US native American genocide. They've learned the strategy of constantly harassing Taiwan into exhaustion from the Russians.

China has no predilections about a better, more equitable world for humanity either - Xi very openly stated that representative democracy is one of the biggest threats to their existence, has already demonstrated that he will happily and brutally suppress dissent against has actions on the home front, all the while his nation has 1 out of every 7 people on the planet and thus vastly more people to throw at its foreign resistors.

It has become the dictionary definition of a fascist nation - an ultracapitalist, expansionist, false-populist dictatorship centered around the delusion of bringing the perceived "glory" of the ancient days (in this case, when China was at the center of old-world trade) to the present.

And on top of all of this, China has made itself into the world's factory. This gives them a soft power advantage over the entire world that NATO could only dream of.

The only thing preventing them from achieving world domination at this point is the US; if we rescind our foreign presence, they will take our place, as there will be nothing to stop them.

Russia is only focused on being a regional power and securing its western front against NATO while having access to a warm-water port, so it is doing nothing new. But Russia is best friends with China and will happily jump on the Chinese bandwagon of world domination if it means they can escape irrelevance and take regional territory away from all their neighbors.

Together, they are a very great threat. China threatens the world while Russia threatens Europe.

2) "Raising taxes on the middle class" - if you call people taking in over $400,000/year, "middle class", you are part of what is killing the actual middle class in this country.

3) "Driving the more productive members of society elsewhere"- the repetitiveness of that argument is just never lost on capitalists, is it? Socialism is worker ownership of the economy; if it were mandated by law that every business were employee owned and that employees got to vote, based on yearly company profits minus taxes, to set their salaries (as well who their bosses are, which is called workplace democracy) in addition to the simultaneous implementation of a guaranteed universal basic income, then not only would more people come here to take advantage of the opportunity to live in a society with such low rates of poverty, but it would also grant more individuals than ever before the power to start their own businesses. Plus, when workers are actually payed enough so that they aren't constantly under stress about their rent or next meal, they are undoubtedly more productive. Even Henry Ford knew that, so why you do not is a mystery to me.

A few billionaires might leave, yes, but I say good riddance. Millions of local business owners will take their place and reclaim the market from oligopoly.

China has moved quite a few people from the lower class into the middle class, which effectively destroys your argument for World domination, since your argument is predicated on China being a ruthless expansionist. In reality China's just focusing on the South China Sea, the rest of the expansion being economic in nature. If I wanted my country to dominate the World militarily, I wouldn't create a massive lower class; economically - that's a difference story, but even the US is struggling to keep up economic domination, and I'm not seeing China doing it.

Biden claiming that only people making $400k+ will see their taxes increase is a joke, and if you think that the US can continue to throw massive cash infusions into projects, you haven't been paying any attention to what's going on with the IMF. The "I'll only raise taxes on those making $400k+" is unrealistic, if Biden actually wants to fund his policies.

Yeah, I've seen those reclamation numbers, as a result of the COVID-19 response, trillions in net wealth were transferred from the small business owners to Democrat funders like Amazon, while California's about to experience a population decline for the first time in its history. The Democrats take your taxes and hand them out to special interest groups, whereas the Republicans cut taxes for their special interest groups, but good luck with that Socialism Building in the US, it's like California's High Speed Rail, under construction - indefinitely.

[Nilokeras]

Plus, the Monroe Doctrine doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the country is a democracy, and is in no way proof that we're somehow, in the present-day, out on a quest of vengeance against the world to re-create a trade empire we used to have but don't anymore.

The Monroe doctrine was the earliest and most explicit statement of American imperialism and right to interfere in the affairs of other sovereign nations, and was explicitly aimed at protecting markets where America had an interest from European empires. That process never stopped.

2) For literally nation on earth except for the Chinese.

Literally every nation on earth? Gee whiz

I also can't help but notice that you didn't actually give me any examples of how China isn't out to dominate the world, like I asked you to.

So please: answer that question and stop pivoting if you want me to treat you as a good-faith actor and not a member of the Wumao.

it's amazing that the only possible political positions are 'we must nuke Beijing to secure the future of American imperium' and 'I am a paid CCP shill'

[Katganistan]

He says, while linking the most popular mainstream media personality in the nation.

Is Tucker MSM now? I thought MSM was more like the AG, Reuters, the big three networks

Fox is NOT MSM? Seriously?

THAT is propaganda right there.