Rise of Domestic US terrorism fueled mostly by far right

[Elwher]

I presume you are using "libertarian" in the narrowly defined American sense to mean so-called "right-libertarianism"?

As that’s the dominant form of libertarianism in the US, yes I am. Left “libertarianism” is riddled with contradictions. Libertarianism champions individual freedom and natural rights, which includes private property, something “libertarian” socialists are opposed to. The left is much more collectivist than the right, and collectivism is incompatible with liberty and limited government. So really, right-libertarianism is really the only form that can call itself libertarian.

While I am a strong supporter of right-libertarianism myself, some forms of left-libertarianism are quite compatible with liberty and small government. As long as the collectives are voluntary and not the result of the seizure of the property of others, they can work out just fine (admittedly, most left-libertarian proposals do include the takeover, by force or by legal trickery, of the means of production).

This particular discussion, however, more properly belongs in the Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me or somewhere similar.

[Alcala-Cordel]

To call him "center-left" is still a bit much. He might not share the same brand of rabid rightism that the GOP does, but he's still very much a rightist in a similar vein.

In American political science, he is center/center-left. He is to the right of President Obama, I will admit that. And in Europe, he would most likely be a member of a center-right political party.

Being to the left of our right-shifted Overton Window doesn’t make him left, and it's misleading to say so

[CoraSpia]

Do you know one thing that all legal employment has in common?

It's voluntary. Nobody is forcing you to work against your will.

Not at all in practice. Most people, if they don’t work, starve or perish to the elements, especially in countries vandalised by capitalism. So no, it’s not voluntary. You get to choose in what manner you are exploited, but not being exploited is not an option. Unless you were born rich, like yourself. I don’t expect much solidarity, therefore.

Were people put here in order to protect one another? Humans are supposed to better themselves as much as possible, whether that is to someone elses disadvantage or not.

The fact that there are some elements within society who want everyone's will to be subsumed to some sort of collective might be yet another reason why right-wing terrorism is on the rise, just to tie it back to the thread.

Even if this egotistical philosophy were true, much more happiness is to be achieved collectively than individually. Unless you measure your success in the disfortune of others.

Even then, capitalism is a lousy way to measure success, even for the very wealthy. In capitalism, no-one is truly free. The poor slave away for meagre wages, the rich have to maintain their riches. It’s absurd.

The fact that some random person I don't know somewhere in the country I live in is leading a happy and healthy life doesn't effect my state of happiness one bit, either positively or negatively. The same is true if I found out that that same random person is not living a happy and healthy life.

As for work: if you don't like the job you're doing, that employer themselves is not forcing you to continue working for them. The system might make it very difficult to survive if you don't work at all, but there is more than one employer, more than one rate of pay and more than one set of working conditions out there. Aside from some employers, such as militaries for example, you will not be penalised by your employer for opting to cease working for them as long as you follow the notice procedure laid out in the contract which it can be assumed for the vast majority of people they weren't forced into signing at gunpoint. Should an employer be refusing to allow you to leave, not paying you or violating your contract in ways that effect your quality of life, the vast majority of countries have legal mechanisms for dealing with such. It is vastly simpler to gain a legal remedy against employers who breach contracts than it is against governments who breach your rights, as (at least where I live) the courts show a cringing level of deference to governmental actions. The two situations are far from being equivalent.

[The Black Forrest]

Considering most legal forms of employment (and some illegal forms, eg prostitution) exist to benefit people other than the one doing them, whether it be through providing information, entertainment, protection, improvement or restoration of physical and/or mental condition, ensuring things get to where they need to go, etc. I don't buy that hypothesis in the least.

If humanity were all about self-improvement to the exception of helping or protecting one another, I honestly don't see how we could have a society. And where is it said that humans are supposed to better themselves as much as possible, whether that is to someone elses disadvantage or not?

Do you know one thing that all legal employment has in common?

It's voluntary. Nobody is forcing you to work against your will.

Not always. Sometimes a shitty job is all that is available. As you like to say “just find another job” it’s not always that simple. In time you need certain levels of income for things like mortgages. Just get a new job doesn’t always pay that. As you get older; you face discrimination. Sure there are laws and yet they don’t actively enforce them. Even the “leftist hellhole” that is California has been putting holes in to get around the laws.

If you don’t want to be homeless. You are forced to work.

[Vassenor]

Do you know one thing that all legal employment has in common?

It's voluntary. Nobody is forcing you to work against your will.

Not always. Sometimes a shitty job is all that is available. As you like to say “just find another job” it’s not always that simple. In time you need certain levels of income for things like mortgages. Just get a new job doesn’t always pay that. As you get older; you face discrimination. Sure there are laws and yet they don’t actively enforce them. Even the “leftist hellhole” that is California has been putting holes in to get around the laws.

If you don’t want to be homeless. You are forced to work.

This is why we need a robust Universal Basic Income.

[The Black Forrest]

Why is the economy worth more than people’s lives?

Was humanity out on this earth just to make the arbitrary number go up?

Were people put here in order to protect one another? Humans are supposed to better themselves as much as possible, whether that is to someone elses disadvantage or not.

Actually they were. We are a group species. You can see this with the apes. Rugged self reliance doesn’t work.

The fact that there are some elements within society who want everyone's will to be subsumed to some sort of collective might be yet another reason why right-wing terrorism is on the rise, just to tie it back to the thread.

Again we are a group oriented species. Even the “right-wing” terrorism works in groups.

[CoraSpia]

Were people put here in order to protect one another? Humans are supposed to better themselves as much as possible, whether that is to someone elses disadvantage or not.

Actually they were. We are a group species. You can see this with the apes. Rugged self reliance doesn’t work.

The fact that there are some elements within society who want everyone's will to be subsumed to some sort of collective might be yet another reason why right-wing terrorism is on the rise, just to tie it back to the thread.

Again we are a group oriented species. Even the “right-wing” terrorism works in groups.

Would they be voluntary groups or groups you're forced to join by being born on a particular patch of earth?

[North Washington Republic]

Not always. Sometimes a shitty job is all that is available. As you like to say “just find another job” it’s not always that simple. In time you need certain levels of income for things like mortgages. Just get a new job doesn’t always pay that. As you get older; you face discrimination. Sure there are laws and yet they don’t actively enforce them. Even the “leftist hellhole” that is California has been putting holes in to get around the laws.

If you don’t want to be homeless. You are forced to work.

This is why we need a robust Universal Basic Income.

I take issue with people making 75k+ getting UBI

[Nakena]

This is why we need a robust Universal Basic Income.

I take issue with people making 75k+ getting UBI

Where do you get that number from? Something like 24k is far more likely at best.

[The Alma Mater]

This is why we need a robust Universal Basic Income.

I take issue with people making 75k+ getting UBI

Why ?

[The Black Forrest]

Actually they were. We are a group species. You can see this with the apes. Rugged self reliance doesn’t work.



Again we are a group oriented species. Even the “right-wing” terrorism works in groups.

Would they be voluntary groups or groups you're forced to join by being born on a particular patch of earth?

Our closest cousins are the apes. They are group oriented. All through history; we formed groups and communities. You do have the crazy lone wolf types. Majority of people form groups for the purpose.

[The Black Forrest]

Not always. Sometimes a shitty job is all that is available. As you like to say “just find another job” it’s not always that simple. In time you need certain levels of income for things like mortgages. Just get a new job doesn’t always pay that. As you get older; you face discrimination. Sure there are laws and yet they don’t actively enforce them. Even the “leftist hellhole” that is California has been putting holes in to get around the laws.

If you don’t want to be homeless. You are forced to work.

This is why we need a robust Universal Basic Income.

We are heading into that direction. What’s funny? The main driver will be the corporations and the free market types. Employees cost too much. Except the mgt of course. Executives? They are always way underpaid.

With AI, robotics and automation; we will find ourselves in a situation where we have too many people for available jobs. The free market will not solve this problem.

[Galloism]

This is why we need a robust Universal Basic Income.

We are heading into that direction. What’s funny? The main driver will be the corporations and the free market types. Employees cost too much. Except the mgt of course. Executives? They are always way underpaid.

With AI, robotics and automation; we will find ourselves in a situation where we have too many people for available jobs. The free market will not solve this problem.

I personally look forward to the robot future where I get to hang out on the beach all day every day.

[The Black Forrest]

We are heading into that direction. What’s funny? The main driver will be the corporations and the free market types. Employees cost too much. Except the mgt of course. Executives? They are always way underpaid.

With AI, robotics and automation; we will find ourselves in a situation where we have too many people for available jobs. The free market will not solve this problem.

I personally look forward to the robot future where I get to hang out on the beach all day every day.

Exactly; a star trek world where you focus on improving your mind and body.

[Genivaria]

Considering most legal forms of employment (and some illegal forms, eg prostitution) exist to benefit people other than the one doing them, whether it be through providing information, entertainment, protection, improvement or restoration of physical and/or mental condition, ensuring things get to where they need to go, etc. I don't buy that hypothesis in the least.

If humanity were all about self-improvement to the exception of helping or protecting one another, I honestly don't see how we could have a society. And where is it said that humans are supposed to better themselves as much as possible, whether that is to someone elses disadvantage or not?

Do you know one thing that all legal employment has in common?

It's voluntary. Nobody is forcing you to work against your will.

So you're saying that if I don't work I can be paid anyway? Because I really like not being homeless.

[Genivaria]

This is why we need a robust Universal Basic Income.

We are heading into that direction. What’s funny? The main driver will be the corporations and the free market types. Employees cost too much. Except the mgt of course. Executives? They are always way underpaid.

With AI, robotics and automation; we will find ourselves in a situation where we have too many people for available jobs. The free market will not solve this problem.

Under capitalism automation is the enemy of the worker, under socialism automation is the liberation of the worker.

[Genivaria]

Would they be voluntary groups or groups you're forced to join by being born on a particular patch of earth?

Our closest cousins are the apes. They are group oriented. All through history; we formed groups and communities. You do have the crazy lone wolf types. Majority of people form groups for the purpose.

Also 'lone wolves' are themselves a myth in nature. Wolves and humans are both very social creatures.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I presume you are using "libertarian" in the narrowly defined American sense to mean so-called "right-libertarianism"?

As that’s the dominant form of libertarianism in the US, yes I am. Left “libertarianism” is riddled with contradictions. Libertarianism champions individual freedom and natural rights, which includes private property, something “libertarian” socialists are opposed to. The left is much more collectivist than the right, and collectivism is incompatible with liberty and limited government. So really, right-libertarianism is really the only form that can call itself libertarian.

Collectivism and freedom are not automatically opposed. We live in a society, we have obligations to it and each other. That doesn't mean you need to be an unthinking drone. But you shouldn't live only for yourself. At least for me, my reason to be is to aid others and try and improve the world even if in the smallest of ways. I am a left libertarian. I still very much support things like the right to hold whatever opinion you want, the right to bare arms, freedom from violence, and most importantly the right to live. The collective and the individual can be balanced.

[Diarcesia]

Back on the topic, the rise of domestic US terrorism is one of the consequences of agitprop gone wild.