What has religion done for humanity?

[Neutraligon]

the way this question is framed is a distinctly atheist one, as though religion were a creation of humanity like technology. humans did not create spirituality, we discovered universal truths (though we have often filled in the gaps in different and conflicting ways). and of course knowledge of our Creator is beneficial

Are you saying that the Greek religion was a spiritual truth? What about the native American religions?

[Insaanistan]

“Look at the atheist who shot up Muslims in Chapel Hill.

Atheism is bad and kills.”

What about Mehmed-i-Feth (May God be pleased with him), HHDI. Was religion bad then?

I would say that religion allows for/pushes extremes. A person who is already set up for charity work and the like can be pushed to do more of that if they are religious. A person already geared to violence would be pushed more in and harder to the extremes of that.

Sure, religion allows for people to go to the extremes. So does any other political or belief system.
Wouldn’t say Allah religions push for it extremes because...

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that The Prophet of God (peace and blessings be upon him) said “So pursue what is good moderately; try to be near to perfection (if you cannot attain it); and receive the good tidings (that you will be rewarded).”

[Insaanistan]

“Look at the atheist who shot up Muslims in Chapel Hill.

Atheism is bad and kills.”

What about Mehmed-i-Feth (May God be pleased with him), HHDI. Was religion bad then?

I mean, Mehmet is a controversial case if you looked at it from Western viewpoints, but well.....

Though to be fair, ideologies/ideals, whether they are religious or secular in nature can be used as justifications to oppress the others.

Here before this thread devolves into a flame war, gets locked/trawled - #EarlyGang

I'm not going to say that this early , but hopefully it can be......as productive as it can be, like the other controversial thread.

Yeah, but I know HHDI reveres Sultan Mehmet as a great figure.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Modern religion is fine, and I’m saying this as an atheist, but it has caused a lot of harm, and I mean a lot. But let’s all be honest, if religion didn’t exist, we’d just find another excuse to kill each other.

[Neutraligon]

I would say that religion allows for/pushes extremes. A person who is already set up for charity work and the like can be pushed to do more of that if they are religious. A person already geared to violence would be pushed more in and harder to the extremes of that.

Sure, religion allows for people to go to the extremes. So does any other political or belief system.
Wouldn’t say Allah religions push for it extremes because...

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that The Prophet of God (peace and blessings be upon him) said “So pursue what is good moderately; try to be near to perfection (if you cannot attain it); and receive the good tidings (that you will be rewarded).”

Sorry I disagree. You can pick and pull various parts from religious texts and use them to justify basically anything. For instance try to be near perfection can be taken as more important in that quote then pursue what is good moderately and so chasing perfection becomes the be all to end all. Like I said religion pushes to extremes, and because it has evolved to strongly take advantage of psychological quirks in humans it can do so much better then other political or belief systems.

[Kilobugya]

First (as my signature says), I need to say I'm an atheist and secular humanist.

•Do you think religion has ultimately done more good or bad for humanity through time? Explain, please.

I admit religion did some good - maintaining social cohesion, sometimes promoting arts and science, encouraging charities. But I do believe the harm done through religious wars, persecution of non-believers, manipulation of the masses, support to oppressive regimes, opposition to social progress, ... outweight the good.

And most importantly I believe religion outlived its usefulness - perhaps it was required to cement primitive civilizations. In the modern age, it definitely does more harm than good.

•Does humanity need religion to be moral and “good”? Does it help at all if it isn’t “needed” per se? Why or why not.

We don't need religion to be moral. If someone behaves morally only because he fears retribution in the afterlife... well, it's not really behaving morally. I don't need a God to tell me I shouldn't kill my neighbor and rape his daughter. Or that I should show compassion to those less fortunate than me and give to charity. There are very virtuous religious people sure, but there are very religious atheists too.

•If humanity never turned to religion would the world be more wholly advanced scientifically, socially, and so forth?

That's a hard question.

Because religion is somewhat inherent to humanity's way of thinking. When we don't have explanations, we invent them. We have an overactive imagination that we tend to listen to. And we are also very good at reproducing memes (in the original sense, units of cultural information similar to genes being units of genetic information) from one generation to another. Those two together produce religion. But the mechanisms are also fundamental in having a coherent society, and to a lesser extend fuel science too. The vivid imagination pushes people to probe the mystery of the universe. It gives insight that we'll later probe. And the scientific process itself is a meme.

•Does very existence itself seem to be meaningless and hollow without a higher power and a “life after” to believe in? Why or why not? (I ask this mostly as a means of garnering an address to the pro-religion point of “without God there is nothing”.)

I agree that living only for yourself, with nothing, is meaningless and hollow. But you don't need a God to not live entirely for yourself - caring for loved ones, dedicating to arts or science, or to the betterment of humanity as a whole are different ways to fill that desire of higher purpose, that don't require a God-like figure. And actually, they can give us a more legitimate and real purpose - if there is no God, then the future is entirely up to us.

[Cekovia]

the way this question is framed is a distinctly atheist one, as though religion were a creation of humanity like technology. humans did not create spirituality, we discovered universal truths (though we have often filled in the gaps in different and conflicting ways). and of course knowledge of our Creator is beneficial

Are you saying that the Greek religion was a spiritual truth? What about the native American religions?

can i respectfully ask u to please not try to engage in debate with me because i quite frankly think it is impossible to engage in a truthful way without getting warned for flaming

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Look at the Christchurch mosque attacks and jihadist organizations in other Islamic countries. religion is bad and kills

“Look at the atheist who shot up Muslims in Chapel Hill.

Atheism is bad and kills.”

What about Mehmed-i-Feth (May God be pleased with him), HHDI. Was religion bad then?

The 15th century and the 21st century are not the same. When your health deteriorates, is it a science or a religious book that saves you.

[Neutraligon]

Yet there's the Old Testament. Some of it only applies to Jews, but other parts (like the Commandments) are Christian source material. Used in sermons etc.

Doesn't the adoption of a Jewish book as part of the Christian bible make "Judeo-Christianity" very much a thing?

Not when the interpretation of the events are so different. Also there have been changes between the Torah and the Old Testament.

[Dowaesk]

Yet there's the Old Testament. Some of it only applies to Jews, but other parts (like the Commandments) are Christian source material. Used in sermons etc.

Doesn't the adoption of a Jewish book as part of the Christian bible make "Judeo-Christianity" very much a thing?

No. Judeo-Christianity was more political related

[Samudera Darussalam]

I would say that religion allows for/pushes extremes. A person who is already set up for charity work and the like can be pushed to do more of that if they are religious. A person already geared to violence would be pushed more in and harder to the extremes of that.

Sure, religion allows for people to go to the extremes. So does any other political or belief system.
Wouldn’t say Allah religions push for it extremes because...

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that The Prophet of God (peace and blessings be upon him) said “So pursue what is good moderately; try to be near to perfection (if you cannot attain it); and receive the good tidings (that you will be rewarded).”

Well, that may be in theory, but in practice I tend to agree with the NS resident Batman. People aren't dogmatic in nature, so trying to understand people's relationship with faith won't be enough by just quoting verses because allegedly, that's what God said (or meant to say). Religion indeed may push people to do extreme things - like Daesh, for example. They sincerely believe that what they did and do have justifications in Islam, something that both you and I are likely to disagree.

[Insaanistan]

Sure, religion allows for people to go to the extremes. So does any other political or belief system.
Wouldn’t say Allah religions push for it extremes because...

Sorry I disagree. You can pick and pull various parts from religious texts and use them to justify basically anything. For instance try to be near perfection can be taken as more important in that quote then pursue what is good moderately and so chasing perfection becomes the be all to end all. Like I said religion pushes to extremes, and because it has evolved to strongly take advantage of psychological quirks in humans it can do so much better then other political or belief systems.

You can also use the Constitution to justify things that weren’t even implied.

Can it be taken as the pursue perfection part being more important? No. Was that the course of the quote? Not even a little.

Also:

Towards the latter times a people will come who have little knowledge; are deficient in intellect; will speak quoting the best of people; have thick beards; wearing shortened garments; have shaved heads; have good speech but foul actions; claiming to act upon the Book of God but have no relation to it; they recite the Quran but it doesn’t pass their throats; and they exit from Islam as an arrow exits from its bow.

-Muhammad (pbuh)

[Dogmeat]

Truth is justified unto itself. Religion is not true and that is all that matters.

[Neutraligon]

Sorry I disagree. You can pick and pull various parts from religious texts and use them to justify basically anything. For instance try to be near perfection can be taken as more important in that quote then pursue what is good moderately and so chasing perfection becomes the be all to end all. Like I said religion pushes to extremes, and because it has evolved to strongly take advantage of psychological quirks in humans it can do so much better then other political or belief systems.

You can also use the Constitution to justify things that weren’t even implied.

Can it be taken as the pursue perfection part being more important? No. Was that the course of the quote? Not even a little.

Also:

Towards the latter times a people will come who have little knowledge; are deficient in intellect; will speak quoting the best of people; have thick beards; wearing shortened garments; have shaved heads; have good speech but foul actions; claiming to act upon the Book of God but have no relation to it; they recite the Quran but it doesn’t pass their throats; and they exit from Islam as an arrow exits from its bow.

-Muhammad (pbuh)

Sure you can, and it has been done. Like I said quoting verses does not do anything, because people will believe that their more extreme interpretation is the correct one and can use either the same verses to back themselves up, or find others that can back them up. The verse you quoted to me, they can use to say that your more moderate form is actually wrong, as you quote verse but do not follow what they believe the book to say.

[Cekovia]

Truth is justified unto itself. Religion is not true and that is all that matters.

how do U know.

[Resilient Acceleration]

It has done some good and as an atheist I will admit that. It has been one of the biggest vectors for morality over the years of the past.

But millennia of jihads, holy wars, Crusades, religious terrorism, the history of the Catholic Church in general (I say this as someone raised Catholic), insertion into politics and the subsequent genocides and persecutions based on faith which continue to this day, all outweigh the good thanks to the sheer number of deaths these phenomena have resulted in;

Religion as a whole has probably killed more than most of history's deadliest diseases.

Plus, as of right now thanks to the wide availability of information, religion is becoming less and less necessary for the foundation of moral and ethical values, which make any positive value it did have obsolete.

So, to recap: its negative values which already outweighed its positives are still going strong while its positive values are now worthless.

We are much better off without religion.

To be fair, the Catholic Church is the only meritocratic (as opposed to purely dynastical) large institution that exist in Europe in their heydays. If you have a big brain, there isn't really a better career option than the church. A big and unignoreable chunk of scientific and humanistic developments and universities that house them are sponsored by the church's influence and money. The same also goes for many religious institutions, such as during the Islamic golden age. Obviously, dogmatism (which is always bad, no matter the belief or ideology—think Lysenkoism) came in and also hinder innovation, seen most clearly following the end of the Islamic golden age with books of scientific scholars being burned by fundamentalists and whatnot.

[Insaanistan]

Sure, religion allows for people to go to the extremes. So does any other political or belief system.
Wouldn’t say Allah religions push for it extremes because...

Well, that may be in theory, but in practice I tend to agree with the NS resident Batman. People aren't dogmatic in nature, so trying to understand people's relationship with faith won't be enough by just quoting verses because allegedly, that's what God said (or meant to say). Religion indeed may push people to do extreme things - like Daesh, for example. They sincerely believe that what they did and do have justifications in Islam, something that both you and I are likely to disagree.

Key word: they sincerely believe.

Their beliefs in the religion are what pushed them to do those heinous acts, despite the texts themselves saying quite the opposite.

When I say “religion doesn’t push people to...”, I mean the religion itself isn’t at fault and the religion itself isn’t saying to do so: extremists simply interpret religion that way, to no fault of the faith itself.

[Insaanistan]

You can also use the Constitution to justify things that weren’t even implied.

Can it be taken as the pursue perfection part being more important? No. Was that the course of the quote? Not even a little.

Also:
-Muhammad (pbuh)

Sure you can, and it has been done. Like I said quoting verses does not do anything, because people will believe that their more extreme interpretation is the correct one and can use either the same verses to back themselves up, or find others that can back them up. The verse you quoted to me, they can use to say that your more moderate form is actually wrong, as you quote verse but do not follow what they believe the book to say.

I fully agree with this. But my point is it isn’t the religion’s fault.

[Dowaesk]

Sure, religion allows for people to go to the extremes. So does any other political or belief system.
Wouldn’t say Allah religions push for it extremes because...

Well, that may be in theory, but in practice I tend to agree with the NS resident Batman. People aren't dogmatic in nature, so trying to understand people's relationship with faith won't be enough by just quoting verses because allegedly, that's what God said (or meant to say). Religion indeed may push people to do extreme things - like Daesh, for example. They sincerely believe that what they did and do have justifications in Islam, something that both you and I are likely to disagree.

In hadith it says “It is not befitting for anyone to punish using fire, other than the Lord of the Fire (Allah).”
Meanwhile Daesh burned Jordanian Pilot Muath al-Kasasbeh (May Allah accept him as a martyr and grant him a special place in paradise) . I wonder what Daesh pulled from Quran to justify this. And this is just one of the many incidents. They did this as individuals representing themselves or the organisation, not Islam.

[Neutraligon]

Well, that may be in theory, but in practice I tend to agree with the NS resident Batman. People aren't dogmatic in nature, so trying to understand people's relationship with faith won't be enough by just quoting verses because allegedly, that's what God said (or meant to say). Religion indeed may push people to do extreme things - like Daesh, for example. They sincerely believe that what they did and do have justifications in Islam, something that both you and I are likely to disagree.

Key word: they sincerely believe.

Their beliefs in the religion are what pushed them to do those heinous acts, despite the texts themselves saying quite the opposite.

When I say “religion doesn’t push people to...”, I mean the religion itself isn’t at fault and the religion itself isn’t saying to do so: extremists simply interpret religion that way, to no fault of the faith itself.

Except that they think that they are following the faith. More then that, it agrees with my point. A person who is already geared towards violence can have religion push them to greater violence because they believe they have the backing of god/a god. The text of the book is in many ways largely irrelevant, except that it can be used to justify and push their already existent tendencies. At the same time those who are born into the religion can have their minds altered and pushed from a young age, allowing for a continuation of the extremes into the next generation.

Sure you can, and it has been done. Like I said quoting verses does not do anything, because people will believe that their more extreme interpretation is the correct one and can use either the same verses to back themselves up, or find others that can back them up. The verse you quoted to me, they can use to say that your more moderate form is actually wrong, as you quote verse but do not follow what they believe the book to say.

I fully agree with this. But my point is it isn’t the religion’s fault.

I am not blaming a particular religion, more saying that it is quirk of human psychology that happens. The very nature or religion itself pushes for extremes of all types, from extreme charity to extreme bloodlust.

[Resilient Acceleration]

You can also use the Constitution to justify things that weren’t even implied.

Can it be taken as the pursue perfection part being more important? No. Was that the course of the quote? Not even a little.

Also:
-Muhammad (pbuh)

Sure you can, and it has been done. Like I said quoting verses does not do anything, because people will believe that their more extreme interpretation is the correct one and can use either the same verses to back themselves up, or find others that can back them up.

The reverse is also true, though, especially if politics is involved and the ruling power happened to align with the moderates. Hardline ideologies tend to appear during harsh conditions, too. The end of the Islamic golden age was precipitated by factors including worsening climate that affects agriculture, while the capitalist West are far less religious than their forefathers.

[Dogmeat]

Truth is justified unto itself. Religion is not true and that is all that matters.

how do U know.

Because I'm a good boy. Good boys don't lie.

[Samudera Darussalam]

Well, that may be in theory, but in practice I tend to agree with the NS resident Batman. People aren't dogmatic in nature, so trying to understand people's relationship with faith won't be enough by just quoting verses because allegedly, that's what God said (or meant to say). Religion indeed may push people to do extreme things - like Daesh, for example. They sincerely believe that what they did and do have justifications in Islam, something that both you and I are likely to disagree.

In hadith it says “It is not befitting for anyone to punish using fire, other than the Lord of the Fire (Allah).”
Meanwhile Daesh burned Jordanian Pilot Muath al-Kasasbeh. I wonder what Daesh pulled from Quran to justify this. And this is just one of the many incidents. They did this as individuals representing themselves or the organisation, not Islam.

I mean, when you think that anybody outside your group are infidels, and - sorry, I hate to say this - are legal to kill, you might do that. That's perhaps what they use as justifications or whatever.

Though maybe I should have used religious beliefs. In the end, it can be interpreted in many ways.

Well, that may be in theory, but in practice I tend to agree with the NS resident Batman. People aren't dogmatic in nature, so trying to understand people's relationship with faith won't be enough by just quoting verses because allegedly, that's what God said (or meant to say). Religion indeed may push people to do extreme things - like Daesh, for example. They sincerely believe that what they did and do have justifications in Islam, something that both you and I are likely to disagree.

Key word: they sincerely believe.

Their beliefs in the religion are what pushed them to do those heinous acts, despite the texts themselves saying quite the opposite.

When I say “religion doesn’t push people to...”, I mean the religion itself isn’t at fault and the religion itself isn’t saying to do so: extremists simply interpret religion that way, to no fault of the faith itself.

On that, agreed.

[Cekovia]

how do U know.

Because I'm a good boy. Good boys don't lie.

can't argue with that. i myself am an aspiring good girl

[Neutraligon]

Sure you can, and it has been done. Like I said quoting verses does not do anything, because people will believe that their more extreme interpretation is the correct one and can use either the same verses to back themselves up, or find others that can back them up.

The reverse is also true, though, especially if politics is involved and the ruling power happened to align with the moderates. Hardline ideologies tend to appear during harsh conditions, too. The end of the Islamic golden age was precipitated by factors including worsening climate that affects agriculture, while the capitalist West are far less religious than their forefathers.

Oh indeed, people tend to turn to religion in times of uncertainty. It gives a stable community and among other things that are emotionally stabilizing. Like I said the ability of religion to hold vastly different and disparate communities together can be both a positive and negative thing. For the positive side of things, simply look towards the various communities rising up together to defend even those outside the community against those who cause harm. Look to their ability to gather charity.