White Supremacy discussion thread

[Fahran]

The original question was why White Nationalists/Supremacists dislike Jews. The answer to that is the outsized position Jews occupy in finance, politics, the media and the like, from which they exercise considerable influence in society.

This is also predicated on white nationalists not perceiving Jews as white and on white nationalists believing that their own outsized power is acceptable. I mean... that is the whole point. Perpetuating and maximizing non-Jewish white power, no?

[Kowani]

i know that anti-semites love to see conspiracies in everything but jfc
whoever sits on the head of the board of directors of Harvard (or whatever the fuck their governing body is called, it's not really relevant) doesn't impact the content of a study
that's...not how grants work
the university doesn't conduct studies...that's not how science works
the Dean of Yale doesn't say "hey sociology department we need a study proving 80% of american whites actually want the return of the KKK"
the "structural issues" you're alluding to...don't really make much sense in the context of modern academia
there are valid critiques of it, this is not one of them

For example, the Dean of Harvard has no impact on studies being conducted by Harvard?

...no?
that's not part of their job

Likewise, we aren't talking about an opinion poll, which you seem to have confused for an actual academic study given your KKK example.

...these things are not mutually exclusive
especially with mass adoption of the ANES and GSS, "opinion polling" is seeing more academic elements to counteract for all sorts of problems with traditional polling, finding true motivations, demographic correlations.

mate, if you can't tell the difference between "you're wrong lol" and "you're using the same rhetorical tactics that people in your movement have been using for the past 70 years", i don't know what to tell you

That you can't define your objections beyond substance less statements that you literally were complaining about being done to you speaks volumes. If I'm wrong, it should be easy for you to prove it, not just say it and expect that to be enough; that's not how debates work.

it was literally in the original statement lmao
i didn't expect to have to spell it out for you
your allusions to "jewish control" of academia being a reason that a study attempting to address the empirical backing for this conspiracy is the same thing that the far-right has been doing for decades, when someone submits evidence against their position
you're just doing it pre-emptively to try and cover-up for the fact that you have no data to back up your conspiracy mongering
very little of what anti-semites say is original, your arguments do not change

[Fahran]

How White Nationalists isn't really important to the over-arching issue of how Jews seem themselves and, more importantly, how they act in line with that thinking.

I mean... a lot of the reason Jewish people tend to value social justice as much as they do has a lot to do with the experiences of their ancestors in the past few centuries. I'm not certain we can disentangle the perception of white nationalists, and other Anti-Semites, from Jewish self-perception and political behavior. But that's not really the point I was making here. The gripe doesn't make sense as a generalized gripe about representation and power because the gripe isn't generalized. It's specifically about Jews.

Yes, the Census Bureau considers them White, but that is pretty meaningless in context to what the self group identification is.

I mean... a lot of white nationalists and Anti-Semites don't want to see Jews assimilated into whiteness. There's a reason anti-miscegenation laws were passed by the Nazis pretty early on, despite this dramatically slowing the rate of Jewish assimilation.

[Kowani]

...no?
that's not part of their job

Just because that's not part of their job does not mean they cannot exercise pressure in this vein to prevent unfavorable studies of their religious co-ethnics or institutions from being produced. You'd have to be pretty naive to not believe people don't abuse their positions of power on a regular basis, even if it's "not part of their job".

okay that's...not a thing that happens...at all
like, the conspiracy mongering of "the truth is being suppressed" makes no sense when you consider how academia works
there are, in fact, choices of where to publish and work

...these things are not mutually exclusive
especially with mass adoption of the ANES and GSS, "opinion polling" is seeing more academic elements to counteract for all sorts of problems with traditional polling, finding true motivations, demographic correlations.

They are mutually exclusive, because the studies Fahran was talking about apply rigor to figure out the objective truth of how things work. An opinion poll, however, is a the solicitation of the subjective opinion of people on a given thing or issue, which in no way is objective; people can and regularly do believe in wrong things. Massive amounts of studies have found vaccines are safe and effective but large sums of the population in opinion polling believe otherwise; which do you choose as the basis for finding out the truth about vaccines?

oh
we're talking about different things
so when I mentioned "80% of americans actually support the KKK" or whatever, it has nothing to do with Morning Consult or Echelon Insights style polling
rather, public opinion research, which draws from massive "polls"-the aforementioned ANES and GSS are the most common-to find other things than are just answered by the straightforward poll questions
an example of this is relatively simple-In-Group Love and Out-Group Hate: White Racial Attitudes in Contemporary U.S. Elections (Jardina 2020), which uses the vast repository of information in the ANES to find how much of a candidate's electoral support is due to White Identity as compared to Racial Resentment

it was literally in the original statement lmao
i didn't expect to have to spell it out for you
your allusions to "jewish control" of academia being a reason that a study attempting to address the empirical backing for this conspiracy is the same thing that the far-right has been doing for decades, when someone submits evidence against their position
you're just doing it pre-emptively to try and cover-up for the fact that you have no data to back up your conspiracy mongering
very little of what anti-semites say is original, your arguments do not change

Okay but this point flounders on the fact that:

A) no study has been done in the first place, which was me and Fahran were discussing
B) you have yet to present any evidence other than to claim I am wrong

I do have plenty of data to back up my case, which is why I'm back to what I've already asked you and to which you quite obviously side-stepped answering: Do you disagree with any of the stats I have provided in this thread? I can provide the evidence to back every single one of them up. The chief question between me and Fahran is not that these statistics are accurate, but whether or not they are the result of institutional power being wielded by Jews. She thinks its the result of what could be termed natural forces, I feel otherwise, at the very least, in the present; how these outcomes came to be is of lesser importance in the here and now because we are living with them. That I think Jews wield their institutional power to their benefit is also something I can back up, quite obviously.

If you feel this is wrong, then please, explicitly define which points you disagree with. Just saying I'm wrong, as you have continued to do such, just tells me you can't actually argue on the merits of the points themselves.

a comment on a rhetorical technique is not, in fact, a comment on the validity of the statement
that you seem to have held the latter impression the entire time is not really my problem

[Fahran]

The original question that started all of this is why White Nationalists dislike Jews, so generalizing makes literally no sense. It also kinda of a lame gotcha because you're attempting to apply an inconsistence in world view that just doesn't exist for the simple reason White Nationalists/Supremacists/Doughnut Boys/etc are honest about what they are.

The issue isn't that a group holds outsized power and influence. White nationalists don't actually have a problem with a group holding outsized power and influence, so long as that group falls within the definition of whiteness. That's kinda the point I'm making here. It's not an attempt at a gotcha. It's an attempt to get past all the rhetoric that seems angled at wanting fairness or equality, since I think you'll admit that's not what white nationalists really want. They want to advance white interests, even at the expense of fairness and equality.

If, after 2,000 years you haven't assimilated, blaming laws that were only in effect for a few years 70 years ago is a pretty weak excuse. Yes, physiologically Jews look White, but that takes in the weird specifics that the same people making this point usually attack; it's an effort on their part to construct a no win scenario.

Assimilation was largely staved off by a modicum of tolerance being exhibited by certain medieval principalities and by the stratified social hierarchies and laws imposed to ensure separation of distinct religious groups, both by Jewish and Gentile communities. A lot of that changed with the advent of the Enlightenment and the Haskalah. Jewish assimilation actually increased, especially in places where intermarriages could occur. This is why anti-miscegenation laws were introduced under many Anti-Semitic regimes.

[New haven america]

I mean... a lot of the reason Jewish people tend to value social justice as much as they do has a lot to do with the experiences of their ancestors in the past few centuries. I'm not certain we can disentangle the perception of white nationalists, and other Anti-Semites, from Jewish self-perception and political behavior. But that's not really the point I was making here. The gripe doesn't make sense as a generalized gripe about representation and power because the gripe isn't generalized. It's specifically about Jews.

The original question that started all of this is why White Nationalists dislike Jews, so generalizing makes literally no sense. It also kinda of a lame gotcha because you're attempting to apply an inconsistence in world view that just doesn't exist for the simple reason White Nationalists/Supremacists/Doughnut Boys/etc are honest about what they are.

I mean... a lot of white nationalists and Anti-Semites don't want to see Jews assimilated into whiteness. There's a reason anti-miscegenation laws were passed by the Nazis pretty early on, despite this dramatically slowing the rate of Jewish assimilation.

If, after 2,000 years you haven't assimilated, blaming laws that were only in effect for a few years 70 years ago is a pretty weak excuse. Yes, physiologically Jews look White, but that takes in the weird specifics that the same people making this point usually attack; it's an effort on their part to construct a no win scenario.

Jewish assimilation is actually at an all time high. It's just like any other religion now, tbh.

Again, this isn't the 1300's.

[Galloism]

okay that's...not a thing that happens...at all
like, the conspiracy mongering of "the truth is being suppressed" makes no sense when you consider how academia works
there are, in fact, choices of where to publish and work

Ok, there’s no evidence of the anti white whatever whatever here, but we do know for a fact academia does have a history of trying to bury unpopular facts on things like domestic violence parity.

I’ve actually shared that data with you before, and some of the extreme actions taken to maintain it.

This is a thing that happens in academia via peer review, especially when there’s relatively few peer reviewers in a particular area and some have outsized influence within it.

Won’t get into a huge discussion of this particular area because it’s not Germaine to the thread, but this is a thing that happens in some contexts.

[Benjamin Butthurt]

Well yeah, what else are we going to laugh at?

[Fahran]

Won’t get into a huge discussion of this particular area because it’s not Germaine to the thread, but this is a thing that happens in some contexts.

I see what you did there.

[Galloism]

Won’t get into a huge discussion of this particular area because it’s not Germaine to the thread, but this is a thing that happens in some contexts.

I see what you did there.

So that was actually an autocorrect from the iPad, but I choose to own it now and pretend I intended it all along.

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Since we’re now talking about Jews and anti Semitism, I’d like to throw something into the pot as well.
While I REALLY dislike modern Jewish culture, I don’t do so out of hatred of them as an ethnicity. Rather, I dislike them for always putting Israel before their Motherland, and having a very large and influential lobby in most of western governments.
I have no problem with a person being Jewish, even religious Jewish as long as he values my country and works hard for its people.

[Fahran]

Which is still a gotcha because you're defacto implying they ever claimed to represent such.

I didn't really think the NJP's framing of their platform was honest. As I said before, they went to great lengths to not sound like Richard Spencer post-Charlottesville. They employed words like "equality" and "representation." As you mentioned, that's not what they want, something belied by the first provision of their platform. It didn't stop them from pursuing such rhetoric though.

In which case we've had almost what, 300 to 500 years?

At best, you might be able to argue that we have fifty to seventy years in most of Europe and the Americas. And that probably doesn't hold true for a lot of places.

[Dejado Atras]

Since we’re now talking about Jews and anti Semitism, I’d like to throw something into the pot as well.
While I REALLY dislike modern Jewish culture, I don’t do so out of hatred of them as an ethnicity. Rather, I dislike them for always putting Israel before their Motherland, and having a very large and influential lobby in most of western governments.
I have no problem with a person being Jewish, even religious Jewish as long as he values my country and works hard for its people.

Zionism then, if I'm correct.

I'm curious as to how you (and others) feel about other people's and groups who put other thing's over their home country and it's laws and society in general.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Since we’re now talking about Jews and anti Semitism, I’d like to throw something into the pot as well.
While I REALLY dislike modern Jewish culture, I don’t do so out of hatred of them as an ethnicity. Rather, I dislike them for always putting Israel before their Motherland, and having a very large and influential lobby in most of western governments.
I have no problem with a person being Jewish, even religious Jewish as long as he values my country and works hard for its people.

Can we drop the double loyalty canard?

[Cisairse]

White supremacy always seemed to me to have serious epistemological problems.

That is, it seems like first they decide that whites are superior, then they try to figure out what "white" actually means.

Now, I'm no consequentialist, but if I were a supremacist of some flavor I would probably try to examine different categories and determine if a given category was superior before espousing such.

I don't believe in supremacy but I'm just saying that if white supremacists fixed their flawed epistemological and metaethnic analyses maybe people would take them more seriously.

[Yankeedomland]

White supremacy always seemed to me to have serious epistemological problems.

That is, it seems like first they decide that whites are superior, then they try to figure out what "white" actually means.

Now, I'm no consequentialist, but if I were a supremacist of some flavor I would probably try to examine different categories and determine if a given category was superior before espousing such.

I don't believe in supremacy but I'm just saying that if white supremacists fixed their flawed epistemological and metaethnic analyses maybe people would take them more seriously.

bruh maybe if white supremacists showed a clear metaphysical value attached to the contingent essence of "white" then maybe ill take em seriously

[Cisairse]

White supremacy always seemed to me to have serious epistemological problems.

That is, it seems like first they decide that whites are superior, then they try to figure out what "white" actually means.

Now, I'm no consequentialist, but if I were a supremacist of some flavor I would probably try to examine different categories and determine if a given category was superior before espousing such.

I don't believe in supremacy but I'm just saying that if white supremacists fixed their flawed epistemological and metaethnic analyses maybe people would take them more seriously.

bruh maybe if white supremacists showed a clear metaphysical value attached to the contingent essence of "white" then maybe ill take em seriously

Don't they? I mean, isn't that their entire schitck?

They attach a whole host of attributes to "whiteness," which certainly requires metaphysical beliefs about race and whatnot.

Of course there is no justifiable defense of a metaphysical system which incorporates objective traits of a consciousness (or group consciousness), which is why the supremacist argument fails. They believe not only in great races, but they also believe in great man. No such "great man theory" can ever succeed at accurately describing the world.

[Dejado Atras]

White supremacy always seemed to me to have serious epistemological problems.

That is, it seems like first they decide that whites are superior, then they try to figure out what "white" actually means.

Now, I'm no consequentialist, but if I were a supremacist of some flavor I would probably try to examine different categories and determine if a given category was superior before espousing such.

I don't believe in supremacy but I'm just saying that if white supremacists fixed their flawed epistemological and metaethnic analyses maybe people would take them more seriously.

bruh maybe if white supremacists showed a clear metaphysical value attached to the contingent essence of "white" then maybe ill take em seriously

Well your modern skinheads and Aryan Brotherhood types typically identify "white" as Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, and Nordic for example.

[Cisairse]

bruh maybe if white supremacists showed a clear metaphysical value attached to the contingent essence of "white" then maybe ill take em seriously

Well your modern skinheads and Aryan Brotherhood types typically identify "white" as Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, and Nordic for example.

Aye, the problem is that "for example."

[Dejado Atras]

Well your modern skinheads and Aryan Brotherhood types typically identify "white" as Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, and Nordic for example.

Aye, the problem is that "for example."

Well, what was I supposed to say in your book? I was giving an example of what many white supremacists call "white".

[Fahran]

Equality for their own and representation for their own. Using such rhetoric in regards to their own.

Except they don't want equality or representation for their own. They want dominance/hegemony/supremacy within both society and its institutions for their own.

Okay, then why did you say assimilation picked up speed with the Enlightenment? Unless I am currently in an alternate universe, you're contradicting yourself.

Because, despite existing inequalities and prejudices, it did begin picking up speed. The point is that the Enlightenment, the Haskalah, and Jewish Emancipation weren't immediate fixes to the factors that had prevented assimilation. Discrimination against the US persisted in the US well into the 1960s. It's still around in Russia and Poland. You also had deliberate attempts to slow assimilation in Germany during the 1930s and 1940s. Even using initial Jewish Emancipation in the US (1790), France (1791), Prussia (1812), Germany (1871), the UK (1858), Canada (1832), Mexico (1865), and Brazil (1890), we have about 231 years at most. In Romania, it hasn't even been a century yet. In Russia, they only just recently passed the century mark.

The Haskalah also picks up steam in the nineteenth century. Oddly enough, Prussian Jewry were early pioneers of the movement.

[The Alma Mater]

Aye, the problem is that "for example."

Well, what was I supposed to say in your book? I was giving an example of what many white supremacists call "white".

But they asked for an actual meaningful definition of the properties that make someone "white". A list with examples is just arbitrary.

[New haven america]

Jewish assimilation is actually at an all time high. It's just like any other religion now, tbh.

Again, this isn't the 1300's.

1. What defines assimilation? 2. What is different from the 1300s? 3. More importantly, what relevancy does this have to anything?

And, finally, you continue to respond: how come you don't answer the questions I asked you earlier?

1. Them being normal members of the society they're apart of.
2. Well... The Black Death is basically dead, we've discovered 3 new continents, new styles of art/math/science, books are easily available, horses are no longer our primary form of transportation, we've discovered how to harness and control electricity and nuclear energy...

But I assume you mean in relation to Judaism. In this case, there is no longer Church doctrine that disallows Christians from being bankers (The Church doesn't even have power in any developed countries anymore), as well as the fact that most Jews now live in North America instead of North Africa, specifically in the US which is a multi-cultural nation. So the 2 biggest factors of the "Double Loyalty" conspiracy are out the window. Judaism is on every continent on the planet now, just as Christianity and Islam are.

3. The reason why Jews were so hated in Rome is because they didn't submit to Roman rule, which got them kicked out of Israel and Sent to Europe and North Africa. Now, newly Christianized Europe specifically, after The Fall of Rome (Western Rome specifically) all the way through The Dark Ages, hated Jews due to the fact that Christians weren't allowed to do most banking work if they could do any at all due to Church doctrine about Greed, while Jews were. Jews didn't follow the rules of The Church, so they could do the most lucrative banking jobs and own their own banks, which really ticked off non-Jewish Europeans as banking was the most lucrative business at that time.

This is where the idea of the whole "Rich Jewish Businessman" controlling the world comes from, peasants mad at Jews because of something their Church is actually responsible for.

You're basically using a grudge from a system that hasn't existed for >500 years to justify your hated. You can work at a bank now, get over it.

[Cisairse]

Aye, the problem is that "for example."

Well, what was I supposed to say in your book? I was giving an example of what many white supremacists call "white".

That's my point! "Whiteness," as defined by your average supremacist, is not really objective. And yet they still find ways to ascribe metaphysical categories to a group they cannot even admit is a physical category.

That's the supremacist conceit.

[Yankeedomland]

bruh maybe if white supremacists showed a clear metaphysical value attached to the contingent essence of "white" then maybe ill take em seriously

Don't they? I mean, isn't that their entire schitck?

They attach a whole host of attributes to "whiteness," which certainly requires metaphysical beliefs about race and whatnot.

Of course there is no justifiable defense of a metaphysical system which incorporates objective traits of a consciousness (or group consciousness), which is why the supremacist argument fails. They believe not only in great races, but they also believe in great man. No such "great man theory" can ever succeed at accurately describing the world.

the failure of white supremacist ideology is due to a "transformation problem" of the input-output values of a given racial value matrix, simply: assigned metaphysical hierarchies plugged into a system of arranged values of certain "positive" qualities in a matrix doesn't equal out on both sides of the equation.

if white supremacists were able to equalize the equation, through some 3rd condition (like a passing of time which distributes values into a matrix in a way that could accommodate the plugged in metaphysical hierarchies), maybe i could consider their arguments. however, it becomes useless after a certain point because the racial "transformation problem" is not just an empirical demonstration of values, but reflects a simpler argument:

the apriori ideas of race white supremacists have don't align with reality in such a way that they could be considered justified true belief, or in any other case, logically correct.