White Supremacy discussion thread

[Fahran]

There probably isn't for most White supremacists either. I myself won't avoid Kosher food per say, its just that I won't keep Kosher if I don't have to- in the instances where a food is good but doesn't fall under Kosher. A cheeseburger for example, is good in the eyes of lots of people- but it isn't Kosher because a core rule is to never mix meat and dairy. I'm willing to have pork BBQ or shrimp/lobster but none of that is allowed to be considered Kosher because it just isn't within Jewish scriptures.

I'm not trying to take away your cheeseburgers or porkloins. You have my word.

[Galloism]

Fah just said ~25% vote rep.

That means 14 of those donors are donating to Republicans, who have the GOP, who tend to support white nationalism.

Oh, I have no doubt they are both sides of the political divide. One need only look at the Trump and Bush cabinets compared to the Obama/Biden cabinets to see this. What that doesn't change, however, is the centrality of the argument: that Jews are the top political donors and thus wield outsized political influence on the policies of this nation.

Since you are responding again, are you going to answer the questions I asked earlier? Clearly, if I am responding to you still and others, for that matter, I don't consider this a waste of my time. In fact, I would be delighted to continue our earlier discussion.

Ok, and not because “The Jews!!!”, we should probably do something about the problem of political donors wielding such influence on governments.

[Fahran]

Fah just said ~25% vote rep.

That means 14 of those donors are donating to Republicans, who have the GOP, who tend to support white nationalism.

While a little less than a quarter of Jewish Americans vote Republican, I would not simply extrapolate that figure to political donors. It'd be better to actually look at who these people donate to directly to gain insight into their political proclivities. Because assuming their behavior reflects that of American Jews generally is a big assumption.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

I didn't argue that Jews weren't disproportionately benefitting from the system. I simply questioned the mechanism by which these disparities occurred and pointed out that you don't need a cabal of people within institutions actively striving to exclude people when the ground is set for disparate outcomes much earlier through disparities in education, in geographical access, and in cultural inertia. Do you have evidence of an effort to discriminate against non-Jewish white people in these institutions?

Absolutely. And Jews, much like East Asians, seem to have become something of a model minority when it comes to achieving overrepresentation in education.

Like the fact that of the eight ivy league schools, seven are run by Jews? Might that have some effect on education outcomes, no?

I didn't assert that it was the result of "natural forces." I asserted that the overrepresentation of Jews and the overrepresentation of non-Jewish whites was largely achieved through similar social and institutional forces. As for showing it, white nationalists aren't arguing to decrease white overrepresentation. They want to decrease Jewish overrepresentation while ostensibly preserving non-Jewish white overrepresentation at the expense of non-white people, no?

Okay, so are those forces the result of deliberate action or not, and thus "natural"? It is a yes or no issue.

Jews benefit from class and racial inequities b/c they are disproportionately richer and white. I'd wager to say that on balance the trait of Jewishness is a net negative b/c of anti-Semitism. They benefit from the same structures many others benefit from. Other white people benefit from the same structures. They aren't lizard people who run the Illuminati and neither are the Jews.

[Kowani]

$40,000 is actually below the average salary for most Americans.

The average salary nationwide is $49,000 a year. (Note: This doesn't mean middle class)

Mean or median? Because it might well be middle-class in most of the country. It's definitely middle-class in Texas, and comfortably so, especially if you're under thirty and not in energy.

Noting that the pandemic has thrown data collection out of whack...In 2019, Mean was $51,916.27, while the median was $34,248.45

[New haven america]

This lol. It's not some insane evil Jewish plot, some kosher stuff is just better.

I don't think anyone has claimed its an evil plot, but rather it is an outgrowth of Jewish financial power and influence as a rather obvious, daily example in American life.

You do know most Jews in America are white?

[New haven america]

Jews benefit from class and racial inequities b/c they are disproportionately richer and white. I'd wager to say that on balance the trait of Jewishness is a net negative b/c of anti-Semitism. They benefit from the same structures many others benefit from. Other white people benefit from the same structures. They aren't lizard people who run the Illuminati and neither are the Jews.

Somehow they have a net negative because of Anti-Semitism yet they hold more positions of power than Whites and they benefit from the say structures as Whites...which somehow produced the situation where, as just stated, Jews are benefiting to a disproportionate level over other Whites.

That is a contradictory mess you've just stated.

Most Jews are white deary.

Mainly from Europe and North Africa, specifically.

[Fahran]

Like the fact that of the eight ivy league schools, seven are run by Jews? Might that have some effect on education outcomes, no?

It hypothetically could, but we shouldn't simply assume that without a review of the policies in place and their impact on the demographics of universities. Likewise, we shouldn't assume a disparity is evidence of discrimination either until we have concrete proof. With Jewish overrepresentation broadly, it's not unreasonable to point to institutional factors and privilege. But, when we get into the actual mechanisms, we need to look at data and do some analysis.

Okay, so are those forces the result of deliberate action or not, and thus "natural"? It is a yes or no issue.

Institutional disparities don't have to be the result of deliberate action to exist. In fact, if you're only looking for deliberate action, you're probably going to overlook a lot of the root causes behind institutional disparities. You're using arguments about institutional power in much the same way that less well-read progressives do. For instance, patriarchy existing means that men have to be evil or white people having an advantage means that the system has to be exactly like Jim Crow. But that's not always how it works.

I would look at Lumi's earlier post on educational disparities as an example.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Jews benefit from class and racial inequities b/c they are disproportionately richer and white. I'd wager to say that on balance the trait of Jewishness is a net negative b/c of anti-Semitism. They benefit from the same structures many others benefit from. Other white people benefit from the same structures. They aren't lizard people who run the Illuminati and neither are the Jews.

Somehow they have a net negative because of Anti-Semitism yet they hold more positions of power than Whites and they benefit from the say structures as Whites...which somehow produced the situation where, as just stated, Jews are benefiting to a disproportionate level over other Whites.

That is a contradictory mess you've just stated.

You'll note I said the "trait of Jewishness." They probably benefit partially in hiring from the model minority stereotype, but that is counterbalanced by anti-Semitism.

Also, intersectionalism is a thing. They are hurt by being Jewish, but helped by being rich and white.

[New haven america]

You do know most Jews in America are white?

According to the census definition, yes, but on a cultural or self identification level?

Yes.

US census considers those from Europe, North Africa, and The Middle East as white. Guess where most Jews in America happen to be from?

Chances are you run into at least 1-5 Jewish people a day and don't even know it.

[Kowani]

Oh, I have no doubt they are both sides of the political divide. One need only look at the Trump and Bush cabinets compared to the Obama/Biden cabinets to see this. What that doesn't change, however, is the centrality of the argument: that Jews are the top political donors and thus wield outsized political influence on the policies of this nation.

Since you are responding again, are you going to answer the questions I asked earlier? Clearly, if I am responding to you still and others, for that matter, I don't consider this a waste of my time. In fact, I would be delighted to continue our earlier discussion.

Ok, and not because “The Jews!!!”, we should probably do something about the problem of political donors wielding such influence on governments.

you know, I'm just spitballing here
but maybe political influence is a tad more complex than "which ethnic group donates the most money"
radical idea
but not all political spending is equally effective, and "whatever the fuck jewish interests" are might be bit hard to pinpoint as being tied to campaign finance
not even the Israel issue works that way, since American Jews...aren't a hivemind

[Fahran]

According to the census definition, yes, but on a cultural or self identification level?

Most people would likely consider me white until I told them I was Jewish.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

You do know most Jews in America are white?

According to the census definition, yes, but on a cultural or self identification level?

There aren't that many racists that go around questioning people as to the intricacies of their self-perceived racial and cultural identity before imposing racial judgements on them.

[Xmara]

According to the census definition, yes, but on a cultural or self identification level?

There aren't that many racists that go around questioning people as to the intricacies of their self-perceived racial and cultural identity before imposing racial judgements on them.

IDK most racists I've encountered have also been anti-semitic to some degree

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

There aren't that many racists that go around questioning people as to the intricacies of their self-perceived racial and cultural identity before imposing racial judgements on them.

IDK most racists I've encountered have also been anti-semitic to some degree

As in, if they look white, the racist isn't going to suspend judgement until they walk up and ask if they are Jewish.

[Xmara]

IDK most racists I've encountered have also been anti-semitic to some degree

As in, if they look white, the racist isn't going to suspend judgement until they walk up and ask if they are Jewish.

Fair point

Though they tend to change their tune if they learn the white person they were just talking to is Jewish. Absurd as it is, that is the mindset of many a racist.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Yes.

US census considers those from Europe, North Africa, and The Middle East as white. Guess where most Jews in America happen to be from?

Yes, as I literally just said the census considers them such; perhaps you are hard of reading? As I said though, on a self identification level or culturally?

Atlanta Jewish TImes: Are Jews White? Yes. And No.
Slate: Are Jews White? A recent judicial ruling defining Jewish as a protected race follows a long and often ugly history.
The New York Times: I’m Jewish and Don’t Identify as White. Why Must I Check That Box?

why is this relevant?

[Kowani]

It hypothetically could, but we shouldn't simply assume that without a review of the policies in place and their impact on the demographics of universities. Likewise, we shouldn't assume a disparity is evidence of discrimination either until we have concrete proof. With Jewish overrepresentation broadly, it's not unreasonable to point to institutional factors and privilege. But, when we get into the actual mechanisms, we need to look at data and do some analysis.

So, in other words obfuscate the point and then to defer to peer review studies to be conducted by whom? The institutions themselves? Or people educated by said institutions?

"the jews run academia" is a good way of spotlighting the typical reactionary reason for their lack of data to back up the assertions
you all run on the same strategy, it hasn't gotten any better since Hitler rejected the nuclear bomb because of muh jewish physics

[New haven america]

Yes.

US census considers those from Europe, North Africa, and The Middle East as white. Guess where most Jews in America happen to be from?

Yes, as I literally just said the census considers them such; perhaps you are hard of reading? As I said though, on a self identification level or culturally?

Atlanta Jewish TImes: Are Jews White? Yes. And No.
Slate: Are Jews White? A recent judicial ruling defining Jewish as a protected race follows a long and often ugly history.
The New York Times: I’m Jewish and Don’t Identify as White. Why Must I Check That Box?

Are you ever going to make an actual point or just sit here screaming "THE JEWS!!!11!!11!"?

It's like reading a book that never stops starting.

[New haven america]

Yes, as I literally just said the census considers them such; perhaps you are hard of reading? As I said though, on a self identification level or culturally?

Atlanta Jewish TImes: Are Jews White? Yes. And No.
Slate: Are Jews White? A recent judicial ruling defining Jewish as a protected race follows a long and often ugly history.
The New York Times: I’m Jewish and Don’t Identify as White. Why Must I Check That Box?

why is this relevant?

Because he thinks that if they don't identify as white, then they don't get the same privileges that other rich white people do.

Also, most Jews in America identify as white, so, you know.

[Fahran]

So, in other words obfuscate the point and then to defer to peer review studies to be conducted by whom? The institutions themselves? Or people educated by said institutions?

It's not really an obfuscation to point out that systematic racism is a lot more complex than your earlier argument suggests. Here's an example that points out how wealth and other factors can impact institutional access and outcomes beginning at a young age.

Okay so let the actual teacher working on a Master’s degree explain to you how these tests work and why they don’t measure intelligence:
1.) Standardized testing specifically focuses more on testing skills than content knowledge. Tests like the ACT and SAT are taken in a single day, and generally are very disconnected from the curriculum the students are learning in school. Just because you have a graph showing the disparity doesn’t mean you actually know what that disparity represents or where it is coming from.

2.) Your first graph specifically measures average white and black students, rich students, and poor students. Grenartia is correct that rich students get higher scores, as they tend to have more access to resources. I have observed and tutored in a variety of schools. One was a private school with an enormous library, media, and digital resources. This school was predominantly white, wealthier students, snuggled in the back of a well-to-do neighborhood. The other school was in an abandoned neighborhood, which was in development for some time and then abandoned after Hurricane Katrina. Most of these students were minority children. Black and Hispanic children are not less intelligent, they primarily live in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods with less access to resources.

3.) Third-grade reading proficiency is complex. No Child Left Behind’s goal was to have all children reading at grade-level at 3rd grade. However, if a child is living in a lower socioeconomic condition, they are a lot less likely to develop their fundamental skills to reach grade level. Some of these skills include:

Fluency: Studies on childhood literacy development show that a student’s understanding of vocabulary come from a child being read to, discussing literature, and specifically asking complex questions. Students from lower socioeconomic conditions oftentimes are either not read to or talked to, due to parents working often or children not having access to proper books. Furthermore, by the age of 3, the poorest children know 30 million less words than their richer counterparts. This puts minority children especially at a significant disadvantage to reach their fundamental fluency goals.

Reading comprehension: Reading less books and having less access to the arts puts children behind in reading comprehension. This is not helped when some of the most prominent cities in the nation are ‘reading deserts’ where children do not have access to books. Again, most of the children affected by this disparity are minority children.

Phonics: Phonics has been tossed to the wayside by our standardized-testing-driven curriculums, and this is a bad thing. Especially for poor children. Overall a lack of phonics education is terrible for reaching 3rd-grade standards. And when children from lower socioeconomic conditions are thrown in front of the bus of standardized testing without a strong phonics background...it’s a horrible accident waiting to happen.

Education has plenty to do with race, but not in the way you think it does. Minority children and poor children often face an incredible amount of obstacles, many of which are due to a lack of a focus on the fundamentals in many public schools. Others are due to the fact that their parents are working multiple jobs, they have no parent reading to them, or they are not reading the right books. Oversimplifying this issue does no service to the betterment of education, so why don’t you leave that to the people who actually have a degree in the job, and to other citizens who genuinely care for education and who aren’t trying to score brownie points with their porn-spamming buddies from Stormfront.

It's a yes or no question.

Then, no, the mechanism you suggested likely isn't present to a significant degree, at least not when it comes to an active effort to exclude non-Jewish whites from institutions by Jewish whites. I think a lot of these specific disparities are not deliberate.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

If they look white, a racist isn't going to suspend judgement until they walk up and ask if someone is Jewish. Self-identification is irrelevant. If they pass as white to others, then they get the advantages of being white.

Plenty of light skinned mixed-race people back in the day got to be "white" because they passed, regardless of self-identification.

[Kowani]

"the jews run academia" is a good way of spotlighting the typical reactionary reason for their lack of data to back up the assertions
you all run on the same strategy, it hasn't gotten any better since Hitler rejected the nuclear bomb because of muh jewish physics

You seem hard of reading, because the post I was responding to specifically noted no studies have been done to examine this and was advocating for such to be done. My points were to note the very real structural issues that would come with such; do you consider an entity to be doing an assessment on itself to be objective?

i know that anti-semites love to see conspiracies in everything but jfc
whoever sits on the head of the board of directors of Harvard (or whatever the fuck their governing body is called, it's not really relevant) doesn't impact the content of a study
that's...not how grants work
the university doesn't conduct studies...that's not how science works
the Dean of Yale doesn't say "hey sociology department we need a study proving 80% of american whites actually want the return of the KKK"
the "structural issues" you're alluding to...don't really make much sense in the context of modern academia
there are valid critiques of it, this is not one of them

If your point was meant to be about the wider statistics I've cited in this thread, what in particular do you mean? Do you disagree that 55 of the 100 top political donors are Jewish? Do you also disagree that seven of the eight ivy league schools are run by Jews. In another thread, you made the complaint that others were just naysaying what you wrote without giving anything of substance. Perhaps you should follow your own advice here and put it into practice.

mate, if you can't tell the difference between "you're wrong lol" and "you're using the same rhetorical tactics that people in your movement have been using for the past 70 years", i don't know what to tell you

[Fahran]

Which I don't disagree with, the question is thus one of the chicken or the egg: how did Jews amass said wealth? How have they kept it in an increasingly diversifying nation?

I imagine cultural factors such as placing a high value on education and particular methods of child-rearing, concentration in some of the wealthiest regions of 1920s America, earlier restrictions on land ownership in Europe, and institutional inertia all likely contributed to Jewish wealth. Diversity likely hasn't muted this much for many of the same reasons that it hasn't muted similar factors for non-Jewish whites in the suburbs.

Okay, they how do they form and do you oppose them being removed?

Some of the factors I listed above, as well as others. Theoretically, we could mute some of these disparities by improving institutional access to high-quality education and functional families. I don't imagine this would erase all such disparities, in part because that would require us to not give people a choice of careers, but it would likely lead to more black and Latino representation especially. It also wouldn't require anything especially draconian to achieve. Of course, there are other factors to address - such as criminal justice and unconscious biases - but I'm offering a start here. Oddly enough, a lot of these policies would have massive benefits for rural whites.

[San Lumen]

If they look white, a racist isn't going to suspend judgement until they walk up and ask if someone is Jewish. Self-identification is irrelevant. If they pass as white to others, then they get the advantages of being white.

How they are viewed by others is irrelevant to in group preference, which is really what we are talking about here. 18 of the Top 25 most wealthy hedge fund managers are also Jewish, for another statistic. How exactly did this come about and do you agree that wealth equals power?

Who cares if they are Jewish? What are you trying to imply?