Fahran wrote:Kowani wrote:will read the study, then get back to you
You're gonna hate me.
Gonna?
no, as punishment, i'm upping the scale and depth of my own effortpost. I'm so out of my element now it isn't even funny
Also, Dr. Shinde's argument seems much weaker than I remember.
admittedly, genetics is not my thing, and I am pretty sure I've misinterpreted something
but I am not certain the authors of Scroll and I are reading the same
Cell study
they seem to be using it as evidence
for the Aryan Migration Hypothesis
but the words of the study don't seem to hold that conclusion
see, this is from the Scroll page:
Thanks to the Cell paper released on September 5, we now know that the people of the Indus Valley had no Steppe DNA. They mainly had a mixture of Iranian-farmer-related DNA as well as some DNA from Ancient Ancestral South Indians.
but
this is from the
Cell study
A genome from the Indus Valley Civilization is from a population that is the largest source for South Asians. The population has no detectable ancestry from Steppe pastoralists or from Anatolian and Iranian farmers, suggesting farming in South Asia arose from local foragers rather than from large-scale migration from the West.
on the other hand, the
Science study doesn't seem to agree with the idea that the people of the Indus valley had no steppe connections-
Our results not only provide evidence against an Iranian plateau origin for Indo-European languages in South Asia but also evidence for the theory that these languages spread from the Steppe.
now, in regards to Dr. Shinde's argument
so firstly, he's broadly correct that calling it a "migration" rather than "a movement of people" would appear to overstate the case
However, Steppe pastoralist ancestry appeared in outlier individuals at BMAC sites by the turn of the second millennium BCE around the same time as it appeared on the southern Steppe. Using data from ancient individuals from the Swat Valley of northernmost South Asia, we show that Steppe ancestry then integrated further south in the first half of the second millennium BCE, contributing up to 30% of the ancestry of modern groups in South Asia.
his secondary point that the Harappans were speaking Sanskrit, however, may be less less supported:
The strong correlation between ASI ancestry and present-day Dravidian languages suggests that the ASI, which we have shown formed as groups with ancestry typical of the Indus Periphery Cline moved south and east after the decline of the IVC to mix with groups with more AASI ancestry, most likely spoke an early Dravidian language.
but there's a contradiction I think is worth noting-the two papers take different positions on the "primary groups"
From
Cell:
Our analysis of data from one individual from the IVC, in conjunction with 11 previously reported individuals from sites
in cultural contact with the IVC, demonstrates the existence of an ancestry gradient that was widespread in farmers to the northwest of peninsular India at the height of the IVC, that had little if any genetic contribution from Steppe pastoralists or western Iranian farmers or herders,and that had a primary impact on the ancestry of later South Asians.
From
Science:
This cline extended to the desert oases of Central Asia and was the primary source of ancestry in peoples of the Bronze Age Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC). This supports the idea that the archaeologically documented dispersal of domesticates was accompanied by the spread of people from multiple centers of domestication. The main population of the BMAC carried no ancestry from Steppe pastoralists and did not contribute substantially to later South Asians.
that
that was terrible
i think i deleted a paragraph every time i went back to confirm something and saw i misread it