White Supremacy discussion thread

[Aeritai]

Maybe if the Reps would stop trying to install an authoritarian, fascist regime, and spreading internet propaganda to target people who are already vulnerable because they slashed and mangled their education... We wouldn't be having this issue.

The GOP are not trying to install a fascist regime. Anyone who honestly believes this tired lie has no idea on what fascism is, or they’re just blowing a dog whistle at something they don’t like.

Conservatism doesn't belong in the 21st century, tbh.

When people use the terms “radical left” and “intolerant left” this is what they mean right here. People who do not tolerate views outside of their own and anyone who perpetuates those views must be stopped. One way or another. Honestly this rising majority stance on the left regarding opposing views (from social conservatives to centrists) has the term “horseshoe effect” ricocheting around in my mind.

The worst part is the pushed illusion of “shining magnanimity” and “collective tolerance” among those who are in this camp all while slinging mud.

What's wrong with letting black and LGBT people exist without getting lynched?

Outside of far-right extremists this isn’t a thing. This doesn’t even make up 15-20% of modern social conservatives. The classic folly of painting an entire canvas with one broad brush and one color of paint.

Honestly I think the biggest problem in American Politics, is that both the right and left can be toxic towards you depending on who you vote for.

You vote for Republicans? You get called a racist and a fascist.


You vote for Democrats? You get called a communist soyboy.

[Dejado Atras]

The GOP are not trying to install a fascist regime. Anyone who honestly believes this tired lie has no idea on what fascism is, or they’re just blowing a dog whistle at something they don’t like.

Conservatism doesn't belong in the 21st century, tbh.

When people use the terms “radical left” and “intolerant left” this is what they mean right here. People who do not tolerate views outside of their own and anyone who perpetuates those views must be stopped. One way or another. Honestly this rising majority stance on the left regarding opposing views (from social conservatives to centrists) has the term “horseshoe effect” ricocheting around in my mind.

The worst part is the pushed illusion of “shining magnanimity” and “collective tolerance” among those who are in this camp all while slinging mud.

What's wrong with letting black and LGBT people exist without getting lynched?

Outside of far-right extremists this isn’t a thing. This doesn’t even make up 15-20% of modern social conservatives. The classic folly of painting an entire canvas with one broad brush and one color of paint.

Honestly I think the biggest problem in American Politics, is that both the right and left can be toxic towards you depending on who you vote for.

You vote for Republicans? You get called a racist and a fascist.


You vote for Democrats? You get called a communist soyboy.

Hence my previous post. The political divide has widened to dangerous levels and it’s only getting worse really.

But your statement is quite fair, that said. Both sides have their toxic elements and those who do not tolerate any kind of opposing viewpoints. Though the question of which side is letting their extreme wing get out of control is always up for debate.

[New haven america]

Honestly I think the biggest problem in American Politics, is that both the right and left can be toxic towards you depending on who you vote for.

You vote for Republicans? You get called a racist and a fascist.


You vote for Democrats? You get called a communist soyboy.

Hence my previous post. The political divide has widened to dangerous levels and it’s only getting worse really.

But your statement is quite fair, that said. Both sides have their toxic elements and those who do not tolerate any kind of opposing viewpoints. Though the question of which side is letting their extreme wing get out of control is always up for debate.

Funny that you're ignoring my response to your previous post.

[Dejado Atras]

Hence my previous post. The political divide has widened to dangerous levels and it’s only getting worse really.

But your statement is quite fair, that said. Both sides have their toxic elements and those who do not tolerate any kind of opposing viewpoints. Though the question of which side is letting their extreme wing get out of control is always up for debate.

Funny that you're ignoring my response to your previous post.

There wasn’t much to it really. The GOP is not a fascist party nor are they forwarding fascist agenda. And the comparison is so beyond cringe by now. They are not trying to subjugate anyone as second class citizens.
Of course I suppose that can be disputed depending on one’s idea of “second class citizen”. I’ve met people who think that just having to work for their paycheck and not making what paramedics and construction workers make as a dishwasher is treating them like second class citizens. I’ve met people who think that because they don’t get first pick of everything as someone in a minority grouping that they are seen or treated as second class citizens.

I mean takes like these are barely even worth an initial response because of how skewed they are. And anyone who clings to them so passionately isn’t even worth trying to refute.

[New haven america]

Funny that you're ignoring my response to your previous post.

There wasn’t much to it really. 1. The GOP is not a fascist party nor are they forwarding fascist agenda. 2. And the comparison is so beyond cringe by now. They are not trying to subjugate anyone as second class citizens.
Of course I suppose that can be disputed depending on one’s idea of “second class citizen”. I’ve met people who think that just having to work for their paycheck and not making what paramedics and construction workers make as a dishwasher is treating them like second class citizens. I’ve met people who think that because they don’t get first pick of everything as someone in a minority grouping that they are seen or treated as second class citizens.

3. I mean takes like these are barely even worth an initial response because of how skewed they are. And anyone who clings to them so passionately isn’t even worth trying to refute.

1. Except for the fact that they are and they are currently trying to forward a fascist agenda.
2. So what do you call their latest attempt to reinstitute Jim Crow Laws in places like Georgia because black people didn't vote the way the Reps wanted? How is that not subjugation?
3. You're just unhappy because I'm calling out a truth you don't want to accept.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Yeah, your highlighted part literally says that, and people have been getting elected to do it. I don't know if you thought this was a gotcha but it failed if it was meant to be one.

"It's just about policing bro"

BLM's focus has been less about changing specific laws and more about fighting for a fundamental reordering of society wherein Black lives are free from systematic dehumanization.

Yeah, systemic dehumanization from police and the corrections system is a pretty big deal.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

1. The GOP are not trying to install a fascist regime. 2. Anyone who honestly believes this tired lie has no idea on what fascism is, or they’re just blowing a dog whistle at something they don’t like.

Conservatism doesn't belong in the 21st century, tbh.

3. When people use the terms “radical left” and “intolerant left” this is what they mean right here. People who do not tolerate views outside of their own and anyone who perpetuates those views must be stopped. One way or another. Honestly this rising majority stance on the left regarding opposing views (from social conservatives to centrists) has the term “horseshoe effect” ricocheting around in my mind.

What's wrong with letting black and LGBT people exist without getting lynched?

4. Outside of far-right extremists this isn’t a thing. This doesn’t even make up 15-20% of modern social conservatives. The classic folly of painting an entire canvas with one broad brush and one color of paint.

1. They are.
2. Handy dandy guide on American Fascism for you.
3. Well I'm not on the left so miss me with your worthless buzzwords.
4. No, it's just that the regular right wing wants to restrict their rights into oblivion making them 2nd class citizens.

That's so much better!

Trump could have built auschwitz II and I'm sure people would still be trying to explain how he isn't a fascist.

[The Reformed American Republic]

More like *MIGA

You mean TPUSA?

Toilet Paper USA?

[-Astoria-]

You mean TPUSA?

Toilet Paper USA?

not going to bite, but... this one.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Based on the poster, probably Israel

Correct. Remember, the fascist Republican party gives billions of dollars in aid to Israel, the Jewish psuedo-ethnostate.

Being fascist and being pro Israel aren't contradictory or else the JDL, the ADL and probably modern Israel itself wouldn't exist.

[Nakena]

Trump could have built auschwitz II and I'm sure people would still be trying to explain how he isn't a fascist.

Hyperbole nonsense.

Correct. Remember, the fascist Republican party gives billions of dollars in aid to Israel, the Jewish psuedo-ethnostate.

Being fascist and being pro Israel aren't contradictory or else the JDL, the ADL and probably modern Israel itself wouldn't exist.

At least the ADL researches their stuff properly unlike the trash peddled by the SPLC.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Trump could have built auschwitz II and I'm sure people would still be trying to explain how he isn't a fascist.

Hyperbole nonsense.

Being fascist and being pro Israel aren't contradictory or else the JDL, the ADL and probably modern Israel itself wouldn't exist.

At least the ADL researches their stuff properly unlike the trash peddled by the SPLC.

The ADL thinks antisemitism is when...

Just anytime. Everything is antisemitism to them.

[Nakena]

There wasn’t much to it really. The GOP is not a fascist party nor are they forwarding fascist agenda. And the comparison is so beyond cringe by now. They are not trying to subjugate anyone as second class citizens.
Of course I suppose that can be disputed depending on one’s idea of “second class citizen”. I’ve met people who think that just having to work for their paycheck and not making what paramedics and construction workers make as a dishwasher is treating them like second class citizens. I’ve met people who think that because they don’t get first pick of everything as someone in a minority grouping that they are seen or treated as second class citizens.

I mean takes like these are barely even worth an initial response because of how skewed they are. And anyone who clings to them so passionately isn’t even worth trying to refute.

Most people you are discussing with here are progressive pseudo-marxist who use a VERY broad definition of "fascism" very loosely based on a (misinterpreted) Umberto Eco's take and as well as generic classification for ultimative evil. Basically if something is considered bad enough it will be called "fascist". Basically everything can be "fascist" under that definition. And I have been called repeatedly fascist obviously too for disagreeing with them. Basically the way they use the word fascism is the same way some christians use the word "satanic."

The problem with that of course is when the real thing appears (which does exist!) or shows up it can hide amongst all those things falsely declared at such. I wrote a few times about it too, and it usually gets ignored because people don't want to know. They only want to have their own ideology and moral superiority complex being validated.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Toilet Paper USA?

not going to bite, but... this one.

I know. I posted that to mock the group.

[Dejado Atras]

There wasn’t much to it really. The GOP is not a fascist party nor are they forwarding fascist agenda. And the comparison is so beyond cringe by now. They are not trying to subjugate anyone as second class citizens.
Of course I suppose that can be disputed depending on one’s idea of “second class citizen”. I’ve met people who think that just having to work for their paycheck and not making what paramedics and construction workers make as a dishwasher is treating them like second class citizens. I’ve met people who think that because they don’t get first pick of everything as someone in a minority grouping that they are seen or treated as second class citizens.

I mean takes like these are barely even worth an initial response because of how skewed they are. And anyone who clings to them so passionately isn’t even worth trying to refute.

Most people you are discussing with here are progressive pseudo-marxist who use a VERY broad definition of "fascism" very loosely based on a Umberto Eco's take and as well as generic classification for ultimative evil. Basically if something is considered bad enough it will be called "fascist". Basically everything can be "fascist" under that definition. And I have been called repeatedly fascist obviously too for disagreeing with them. Basically the way they use the word fascism is the same way some christians use the word "satanic."

The problem with that of course is when the real thing appears (which does exist!) or shows up it can hide amongst all those things falsely declared at such. I wrote a few times about it too, and it usually gets ignored because people don't want to know. They only want to have their own ideology and moral superiority complex being validated.

Heavy “this” on what I underlined.

A moot side point but what’s worse is from poking around a bit a lot of these are college age or post college graduate individuals. People argue that this kind of crap doesn’t get rammed down your throat or subtly indoctrinated into student bodies but as someone who graduated from a junior college and had to deal with this and relatable nonsense I can only imagine the severity of it in major universities.

To circle back around to why I made that moot little point, whenever I see or hear “the GOP is fascist” from a bunch of teenagers and twenty something year olds who live in a Democratic first world country (even with its flaws) I cringe so hard. Because they as you’ve alluded made classifications on the ultimate evil.

i.e Anything that disagrees with their agenda/ideals. Uber wutanfall.

[Kubra]

well yeah, what we're getting at is that WASP self-identification is usually right wing idpol.

Except you don't really get the hardline IDpol sorts calling themselves WASPs terribly often. White identitarians will usually refer to themselves as white in the US. There equivalents in the UK'll call themselves English, Scottish, Welsh, or Irish. In the US especially WASP was often a pejorative employed by Scots-Irish authors. Generally though, as expressed previously, it's a useful term for assimilated Anglo-Americans. By default, this carries the bagagge of whiteness, but that's a bit different from characterizing those who use the label, often derisively or innocuously, as IDpol sorts. Beyond that, there has been a lot of attempts to deconstruct the concept of the Anglo-Saxon or the WASP by various lefty types, including attempts to rename Anglo-Saxon Studies departments. I think trying to suppress IDpol with negative IDpol still counts as IDpol.

well not WASP, but identifying as an Anglo Saxon tends to imply the former and the latter categories. Why just the other day I walked into the ethnic aisle at a grocery store, loudly called it the ethnic aisle, and proceeded to buy nothing. But much to my chagrin, the classification of Anglo-Saxon is beyond my reach.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Funny that you're ignoring my response to your previous post.

There wasn’t much to it really. The GOP is not a fascist party nor are they forwarding fascist agenda. And the comparison is so beyond cringe by now. They are not trying to subjugate anyone as second class citizens.
Of course I suppose that can be disputed depending on one’s idea of “second class citizen”. I’ve met people who think that just having to work for their paycheck and not making what paramedics and construction workers make as a dishwasher is treating them like second class citizens. I’ve met people who think that because they don’t get first pick of everything as someone in a minority grouping that they are seen or treated as second class citizens.

I mean takes like these are barely even worth an initial response because of how skewed they are. And anyone who clings to them so passionately isn’t even worth trying to refute.

Barely getting by on the paycheck you make tends to count in my mind as being a second class citizen. I'm reminded of it too when low wage workers inevitably lose the job they barely got by on to machines.

[Dejado Atras]

There wasn’t much to it really. The GOP is not a fascist party nor are they forwarding fascist agenda. And the comparison is so beyond cringe by now. They are not trying to subjugate anyone as second class citizens.
Of course I suppose that can be disputed depending on one’s idea of “second class citizen”. I’ve met people who think that just having to work for their paycheck and not making what paramedics and construction workers make as a dishwasher is treating them like second class citizens. I’ve met people who think that because they don’t get first pick of everything as someone in a minority grouping that they are seen or treated as second class citizens.

I mean takes like these are barely even worth an initial response because of how skewed they are. And anyone who clings to them so passionately isn’t even worth trying to refute.

Barely getting by on the paycheck you make tends to count in my mind as being a second class citizen. I'm reminded of it too when low wage workers inevitably lose the job they barely got by on to machines.

“Barely getting by” is also debatable. Especially as it is possible to get by on 20K a year for example. Housekeepers and janitors are two low qualifying jobs that typically make this kind of pay. For two years I lived on 23K, yes I had to make adjustments and sacrifices, but that’s called living on a low paying budget. And while I understand that extenuating circumstances are a thing and not everyone has the same advantages and disadvantages, one can make a living in this country if they budget well and make good choices.

Look at this.
In 2019 the poverty rate in America was 11% (rounded up). The poverty line steadily decreasing over the past few years.

This past year’s unemployment rate was just 6%. And mind you we have things in the US like welfare, food stamps, and snap meant to service lower income and impoverished people. There are homeless shelters that work to help people get work. None of this sounds like a country that mistreats it’s citizens.

Of course, if your maintained idea of being second class is just being poor alone, I don’t know what to say to that. Because poverty is everywhere in the world and we can’t all live like kings after all.

[-Astoria-]

not going to bite, but... this one.

I know. I posted that to mock the group.

Ah; couldn't tell.

Curious side note; would that be political nicknaming, though?

[Fahran]

The ADL thinks antisemitism is when...

Just anytime. Everything is antisemitism to them.

The ADL has a pretty reliable track record compared to most organizations. Again, I think a lot of the accusations coming from the left in this regard have more to do with them getting really, really comfortable around Anti-Zionists who use Antisemitic canards on a routine basis. Sorry, y'all, but the Palestinian ranting about how Jews control the universities and the American political system doesn't just hate Israel. He hates Jews too.

[Fahran]

2. Handy dandy guide on American Fascism for you.

There have been a lot of bad takes here tonight.

Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism" is useful but it was not intended to provide a precise framework with which to identify fascism as an ideology or fascism in practice. In fact, Eco specifically asserted that it's impossible to organize the fourteen general properties of fascism into a coherent system. He goes on to say "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it." The problem with using the argument presented in "Ur-Fascism" in the way that Ifreann did is that the general properties are so broad that they can apply to any number of modern ideologies or paradigms - from conservatism, to progressivism, to socialism.

In fact, Eco has to consciously return, again and again, to the notion that these general properties are most applicable in instances where modernity is criticized in ethical terms. Otherwise, things like the "the cult of action for action's sake", "[casting enemies as both] too strong and too weak", and "disagreement is treason" find uncanny reflections amid echo chambers of every sort. In summation, I think not only is the use of "Ur-Fascism" in this instance and in this manner improper, but, beyond that, Eco's thoughts should warrant criticism on their own merit.

We get fascinating discussions of fascism from more insightful scholars as far back as the 1950s. Hannah Arendt composed arguments regarding the use of terror under totalitarianism in "The Rise of Totalitarianism", Walter Benjamin gave us the definition of fascism as the "aestheticization of the political", and we've had various other definitions of fascism that emphasize more concrete political and economic organization. And this is before we arrive at the theorizing of the fascists themselves - a few of whom were preeminent scholars of continental philosophy and jurisprudence in their own time and who gave us treatises and tomes to sift through.

I previously defined Fascism as by necessity possessing all of the characterstics below when it has come to fruition. I find the notion of a "free-market" fascist untenable from the economic angle, from the totalitarian angle, and from the anti-liberal angle. I could grant the absence of Hegelian and Marxist philosophy in the case of Neo-Fascism, as well as the ubiquitous talk of a collective spiritual "will to power", but, in my mind, the GOP seem, broadly, in ideological terms at least, to be liberals.

• Palingenetic Ultranationalism
• Corporatism, National Syndicalism, or Third-Way economic policies
• Totalitarianism - emphasis of the state at the expense of other institutions
• Hegelian Philosophy and Marxism, though quite obviously not applied in conventional ways
• Anti-Liberalism, Anti-Communism, and Anti-Conservatism
• Rejection of the Enlightenment
• Militarism
• Reactionary
• Revolutionary

And I will point out that being racist is a time-honored tradition within liberal political philosophy, albeit not one necessarily intrinsic to the political philosophy in any of its varied forms. One does not need to be a fascist to be a racist or to thrive on racial resentment, white identity, etc.

[Fahran]

well not WASP, but identifying as an Anglo Saxon tends to imply the former and the latter categories.

Perhaps, but calling yourself an Anglo, Anglo-American, or English does not. Again, I would not look so much at the identification itself as everything surrounding the identification. If someone called themselves an "Anglo-Saxon" or "of Anglo-Saxon" stock, it might send a red flag up. If they begin dog-whistling about the Irish, Poles, Jews, or blacks, I can conclude they're probably the old type of racist who would have been at home in the nineteenth century. If it's just a cultural and linguistic label, I'll let them have it - the same way I let people have any identity that is somewhat sensible, however weird it may be to me.

As for the term in academia, I quite like it in truth. It's descriptive and I know precisely what period is being referenced.

Why just the other day I walked into the ethnic aisle at a grocery store, loudly called it the ethnic aisle, and proceeded to buy nothing.

Don't do this.

But much to my chagrin, the classification of Anglo-Saxon is beyond my reach.

Same. lol

[Kowani]

i would question why we expect american fascism-using the contested term broadly-to fit into the blocks of european fascism, instead of being an analogue to it
beyond the fact that one is mostly run by idiots and astroturfed (and out of control) disinformation chambers, which i feel is somewhat critical to any discussion of it

[The Reformed American Republic]

I know. I posted that to mock the group.

Ah; couldn't tell.

Curious side note; would that be political nicknaming, though?

I don't know. I don't think so, but if so, ops, I guess. I thought political nicknaming was when you insult political figures, such as saying "Hitlery" instead of "Hillary," or something along those lines.

[Fahran]

i would question why we expect american fascism-using the contested term broadly-to fit into the blocks of european fascism, instead of being an analogue to it

beyond the fact that one is mostly run by idiots and astroturfed (and out of control) disinformation chambers, which i feel is somewhat critical to any discussion of it

I mean... there has been at least some distinction between American white nationalists and fascists/Nazis traditionally, hence why I would caution against even using the term when the other trappings and ideological tenets of fascism are absent from an ideology. A lot of self-declared antifascists seem to want it to be a meaninglessly catch-all term for political ideologies they dislike, regardless of how they might differ. Hence NVA using it to describe neocons on a routine basis.