White Supremacy discussion thread

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

ALM is often just used to respond to BLM, so basically 'Hey, black lives matter! Stop disregarding that!'

'You idiot everyone's life matters.'

'Yes, but mine also does so please stop--'

'ARE YOU SOME BLACK SUPREMACIST?????'

Very few people are actually killed by police use of force in this country. According to this article, about 400 unarmed blacks were killed by U.S. police from 2013 through 2019, representing about one-third of unarmed people killed by police. What is especially funny is that when you consider the proportion of crimes they commit rather than their proportion of the general population they are actually underrepresented in this regard and should instead comprise about one-half of the aforesaid. And I consider generally that no matter how much training they are put through, people will always be accidentally or mistakenly killed by police, just perhaps at a lower rate. There is legitimate cause for grief by the friends and families of those affected, but I fail to see how they can serve as a basis for a political movement, or for the looting and burning of cities. It is, essentially, a Black racialist movement with a political veneer to fool gullible whites into its ranks.

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

that's funny, everything you just said was wrong. I've been on here for five minutes and I've already had enough for the week, gosh dang your opinions suck.

not an argument.

I don't feel like effort posting on my lazy Saturday afternoon, thank you.

[Kubra]

Very few people are actually killed by police use of force in this country. According to this article, about 400 unarmed blacks were killed by U.S. police from 2013 through 2019, representing about one-third of unarmed people killed by police. What is especially funny is that when you consider the proportion of crimes they commit rather than their proportion of the general population they are actually underrepresented in this regard and should instead comprise about one-half of the aforesaid. And I consider generally that no matter how much training they are put through, people will always be accidentally or mistakenly killed by police, just perhaps at a lower rate. There is legitimate cause for grief by the friends and families of those affected, but I fail to see how they can serve as a basis for a political movement, or for the looting and burning of cities. It is, essentially, a Black racialist movement with a political veneer to fool gullible whites into its ranks.

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

just wait until you get to his 13/50 bits

[East Blepia]

snip

The police count almost everything as a weapon. The white homeless man shot in a Portland park last night had an airsoft gun on him, which probably counts as a weapon, but he definitely did not need to be shot.

Permit that one-half of those victims of police violence designated as 'armed' were in fact unarmed, or not sufficiently armed. This means, during a period of seven years, an additional eight hundred unarmed Blacks killed by police, for a total of twelve hundred. I still fail to see how this is political, or how it can be fixed.

It's ironic seeing you accuse people of being racialists.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I would not have blacks work against their interests. I am just calling it like it is.

And as an aside, I took a good 10 minutes doing the research and writing that up and here you go responding in 30 seconds. What is wrong with you forum people? /s

[Kowani]

ALM is often just used to respond to BLM, so basically 'Hey, black lives matter! Stop disregarding that!'

'You idiot everyone's life matters.'

'Yes, but mine also does so please stop--'

'ARE YOU SOME BLACK SUPREMACIST?????'

Very few people are actually killed by police use of force in this country. According to this article, about 400 unarmed blacks were killed by U.S. police from 2013 through 2019, representing about one-third of unarmed people killed by police. What is especially funny is that when you consider the proportion of crimes they commit rather than their proportion of the general population they are actually underrepresented in this regard and should instead comprise about one-half of the aforesaid. And I consider generally that no matter how much training they are put through, people will always be accidentally or mistakenly killed by police, just perhaps at a lower rate. There is legitimate cause for grief by the friends and families of those affected, but I fail to see how they can serve as a basis for a political movement, or for the looting and burning of cities. It is, essentially, a Black racialist movement with a political veneer to fool gullible whites into its ranks.

taps sign

so a while back i wrote this effortpost on why policing is fundamentally broken and in need of a serious overhaul

but this thread focuses a lot more on race and policing, so I'd figured I should address that
I believe that most of the regular thread participants are aware of the reality of racial (and gendered) policing bias, thankfully.
but for the lurkers, here we go. Note: Most of the data here focuses on black people in policing, as an artifact of what is essentially sampling and information bias-there's just much more data on African-American/white experiences than there is any other group.

We know, for example, that the racial attitudes of police are more regressive than the broader population. Specifically, officers are more likely believe that black people are more violent compared to most whites (a relationship that did not hold for black police officers). In fact, "being a white police officer made the respondent more than nine times as likely (odds ratio =9.013) as a nonpolice citizen to agree that African Americans are more violent than are white people." It was also more likely to make you more racially resentful than the general population: twice as likely to reject the idea that discrimination created obstacles for African Americans, 3x more likely to believe that whites are discriminated against in the workplace, 3x more likely to resent supposed 'special treatment for African-Americans." And note that all of that is exclusive to white officers-black officers don't fall into that trap at all. (The general white population, by the way, is a lot more racially resentful than we'd like to think-the average white American will score a 0.6 on the 0-1 racial resentment score, a fascinating why that's off topic).

With all that said, it is not enough to merely examine beliefs, though it appears that they have an effect on decisions to shoot anyway.

So we've examined beliefs and their effect in the lab. But now, let's flip to empirical evidence.
It starts small-with language. Looking at traffic stops, a process through which nearly a quarter of the US population will come into contact with the police, even after controlling for the race of the officer, the severity of the infraction, the location of the stop, and the outcome of the stop, police are less likely to treat black citizens with respect (though elderly people and women were also more likely to receive respect)-a thing which I believe we can all agree is necessary for fostering trust and good communal relations. And those disparities persisted even in stops when no arrest or search was made, and before the person being stopped had even said anything.

So lets keep going with traffic stops, because they're a wonderful window into this.
So this is an absolutely massive dataset of nearly 100,000,000 traffic stops across 31 different states, from 2011-2018. The results weren't pretty; "In particular, among state patrol stops, the annual per-capita stop rate for black drivers was 0.10 compared to 0.07 for white drivers; and among municipal police stops, the annual per-capita stop rate for black drivers was 0.20 compared to 0.14 for white drivers." (A disparity that decreased when the sun went down). Searches weren't any better-the bar for being searched for black and Hispanic drivers was much lower than that of white people.
But of course, it doesn't stop there. Being a minority makes you less likely to receive a discount on your speeding ticket-and that's caused by 40% of officers. And that's relevant, because fines don't increase proportionately with your speed. They increase in what are essentially brackets-and white people are substantially more likely to have the officer slot them into a lower punishment bracket than minorities are. (To calculate a differential probability of discount by an average officer, we use the fact that two-thirds of tickets are written by lenient officers and scale accordingly, finding that an average encounter leads to a 4 percentage point higher discount probability for white drivers, off a base of 30%.") And that's not because minorities are worse drivers- "Model estimates indicate that, within location, forcing all officers to treat minority drivers the same as they treat white drivers removes 83% of the gap in discounting. Only 17% of the gap is due to minorities driving faster.' Here, minority and female officers were less likely to be discriminatory, but they did not eliminate it entirely. (Older drivers and female drivers also are more likely to receive a discount, but the stop being in a majority-minority county made officers less lenient on average).

In the use of stop-and-frisk, things aren't any better. Looking to New York City, the program was excessively poor: blacks and Hispanics were stopped disproportionately often compared with their population, their crime rate, or the percentage of stops that led to arrests.

This sort of thing is what part of we mean when we say that minorities are overpoliced-the police presence exists in a way that's not justified by the conditions of their communities or their responses. And in the age of police militarization, that's only gotten worse.

Now, we turn to the big one: shootings. And for good reason, it's the most final and extreme use of force by the police, the one we can't reverse or compensate for a large portion of the time.
And it's the one where the largest debate is, because there's a vested interest in asserting that the police are justified in the majority of cases, with a "few bad apples" being the exceptions.
There's two ways to do that. The first, arguing that while minorities make up a disproportionate amount of police use-of-force deaths, they also make up a disproportionate amount of crime, so police should encounter them more often. The other, arguing that the police are justified in using self-defense methods to protect themselves.
Lets tackle the second one first, because its easier and doesn't make me cry about bad data collection.
The problem is, the evidence doesn't back it up. In fatal police shootings, civilians from minority groups were significantly more likely than Whites to have not been attacking the officer(s) or other civilians, and Black civilians were more than twice as likely as White civilians to have been unarmed. But not all shootings are technically unjustified-in some cases, civilians were armed or attacking others, and thankfully, most uses of force don't escalate to death. For example, last year, police killed "only" 1,127 people last year.
But that same year, there were

(Image)

So what happens if we adjust for those things?
It doesn't get any better.
"The results, which appear in Table 2, show that black civilians have 27 percent higher odds of experiencing force during a stop than white civilians and 28 percent higher odds of officers drawing their guns (OR = 1.27 and 1.28, respectively). Importantly, these findings are net of alternative explanations including civilian behavior, the success of the stop, local crime rates, and neighborhood context."
The issue most apologists make is assuming that nationwide crime rates are good at all. Pretty much everyone draws on FBI crime statistics,, which are entirely voluntary, represent about 3% of the country, are skewed towards white and rural areas, don't have any data from Mississippi at all, and has no way of ensuring the accuracy of the little data they do receive

Now as you might have noticed, a lot of the data has noted that even after you adjust for all these other confounding factors, the racial disparity continues to exist. And that's a major theme-the other factors-poverty, crime rates, the neighborhood-they all make the living situation worse-but the problem still exists anyway.

It's a large part of how absolutely toxic the institution of policing is-you can't reform it with the administrative, managerial reforms that get promoted by the state right now. The rot runs deep, and a large part of it is the fault of larger societal attitudes and trends. Body-cameras, punishing the worst offenders, proper use-of-force guidelines help, but the institution is far too gone to be saved.

there is so very little you have to say that has not already been addressed
it's almost boring in how predictable it all is

that's funny, everything you just said was wrong. I've been on here for five minutes and I've already had enough for the week, gosh dang your opinions suck.

this is not an argument

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

just wait until you get to his 13/50 bits

*yawn* A statistic is a statistic. It just happens to be that 13% of the population commits 50% of the crime, not much you or I can do about it.

[East Blepia]

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

Hello, based department?

[Kubra]

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

Hello, based department?

hey while you're here there's a couple articles in the other thread that folks are dying to get your input on

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

Hello, based department?

lol

There's one statistic that debunks nearly every anti-cop sentiment in the US right now (which I absolutely cannot be bothered to link right now, you can look it up yourself), and that is every minority group wants the same level of police presence or more in their neighborhoods as they had before. Let me say that again. The vast majority of minorities want MORE COPS in their neighborhoods. But of course, don't listen to them, listen to the white woke liberals and rich BLM activists that know exactly what all these people want, oh yeah. Clearly, minorities do not agree with this bullcrap. But defund and strip the cops anyway, and watch as crime rates skyrocket (which has already happened, btw).

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Permit that one-half of those victims of police violence designated as 'armed' were in fact unarmed, or not sufficiently armed. This means, during a period of seven years, an additional eight hundred unarmed Blacks killed by police, for a total of twelve hundred. I still fail to see how this is political, or how it can be fixed.

It's ironic seeing you accuse people of being racialists.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I would not have blacks work against their interests. I am just calling it like it is.

And as an aside, I took a good 10 minutes doing the research and writing that up and here you go responding in 30 seconds. What is wrong with you forum people? /s

Because your research is extremely biased. Hundreds of people being killed in an unjustified manner by police each year isn't a non political issue.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Very few people are actually killed by police use of force in this country. According to this article, about 400 unarmed blacks were killed by U.S. police from 2013 through 2019, representing about one-third of unarmed people killed by police. What is especially funny is that when you consider the proportion of crimes they commit rather than their proportion of the general population they are actually underrepresented in this regard and should instead comprise about one-half of the aforesaid. And I consider generally that no matter how much training they are put through, people will always be accidentally or mistakenly killed by police, just perhaps at a lower rate. There is legitimate cause for grief by the friends and families of those affected, but I fail to see how they can serve as a basis for a political movement, or for the looting and burning of cities. It is, essentially, a Black racialist movement with a political veneer to fool gullible whites into its ranks.

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

I Respect all Persons Rights to Strongly Disagree with Me and Post It Too Me and All of US on NS, Discord and off NS and Discord, I Am The Real Thing - This Man Always Says What He Means - I'm Based - It is All on My New Sig.

[Crysuko]

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

i have a braib.

we only have your word for it

[Crysuko]

we only have your word for it

stopjv.

ask nicely

[Crysuko]

ask nicely

please fsuf if.

I will fsuf if when you fgsfds

[East Blepia]

so a while back i wrote this effortpost on why policing is fundamentally broken and in need of a serious overhaul

but this thread focuses a lot more on race and policing, so I'd figured I should address that
I believe that most of the regular thread participants are aware of the reality of racial (and gendered) policing bias, thankfully.
but for the lurkers, here we go. Note: Most of the data here focuses on black people in policing, as an artifact of what is essentially sampling and information bias-there's just much more data on African-American/white experiences than there is any other group.

We know, for example, that the racial attitudes of police are more regressive than the broader population. Specifically, officers are more likely believe that black people are more violent compared to most whites (a relationship that did not hold for black police officers). In fact, "being a white police officer made the respondent more than nine times as likely (odds ratio =9.013) as a nonpolice citizen to agree that African Americans are more violent than are white people." It was also more likely to make you more racially resentful than the general population: twice as likely to reject the idea that discrimination created obstacles for African Americans, 3x more likely to believe that whites are discriminated against in the workplace, 3x more likely to resent supposed 'special treatment for African-Americans." And note that all of that is exclusive to white officers-black officers don't fall into that trap at all. (The general white population, by the way, is a lot more racially resentful than we'd like to think-the average white American will score a 0.6 on the 0-1 racial resentment score, a fascinating why that's off topic).

Well, police officers, along with other public service workers, have a higher degree of interaction with blacks than the general population. It makes sense that they would know more about them.

With all that said, it is not enough to merely examine beliefs, though it appears that they have an effect on decisions to shoot anyway.
[quote[
So we've examined beliefs and their effect in the lab. But now, let's flip to empirical evidence.
It starts small-with language. Looking at traffic stops, a process through which nearly a quarter of the US population will come into contact with the police, even after controlling for the race of the officer, the severity of the infraction, the location of the stop, and the outcome of the stop, police are less likely to treat black citizens with respect (though elderly people and women were also more likely to receive respect)-a thing which I believe we can all agree is necessary for fostering trust and good communal relations. And those disparities persisted even in stops when no arrest or search was made, and before the person being stopped had even said anything.

So lets keep going with traffic stops, because they're a wonderful window into this.
So this is an absolutely massive dataset of nearly 100,000,000 traffic stops across 31 different states, from 2011-2018. The results weren't pretty; "In particular, among state patrol stops, the annual per-capita stop rate for black drivers was 0.10 compared to 0.07 for white drivers; and among municipal police stops, the annual per-capita stop rate for black drivers was 0.20 compared to 0.14 for white drivers." (A disparity that decreased when the sun went down). Searches weren't any better-the bar for being searched for black and Hispanic drivers was much lower than that of white people.
But of course, it doesn't stop there. Being a minority makes you less likely to receive a discount on your speeding ticket-and that's caused by 40% of officers. And that's relevant, because fines don't increase proportionately with your speed. They increase in what are essentially brackets-and white people are substantially more likely to have the officer slot them into a lower punishment bracket than minorities are. (To calculate a differential probability of discount by an average officer, we use the fact that two-thirds of tickets are written by lenient officers and scale accordingly, finding that an average encounter leads to a 4 percentage point higher discount probability for white drivers, off a base of 30%.") And that's not because minorities are worse drivers- "Model estimates indicate that, within location, forcing all officers to treat minority drivers the same as they treat white drivers removes 83% of the gap in discounting. Only 17% of the gap is due to minorities driving faster.' Here, minority and female officers were less likely to be discriminatory, but they did not eliminate it entirely. (Older drivers and female drivers also are more likely to receive a discount, but the stop being in a majority-minority county made officers less lenient on average).

In the use of stop-and-frisk, things aren't any better. Looking to New York City, the program was excessively poor: blacks and Hispanics were stopped disproportionately often compared with their population, their crime rate, or the percentage of stops that led to arrests.

This sort of thing is what part of we mean when we say that minorities are overpoliced-the police presence exists in a way that's not justified by the conditions of their communities or their responses. And in the age of police militarization, that's only gotten worse.

Now, we turn to the big one: shootings. And for good reason, it's the most final and extreme use of force by the police, the one we can't reverse or compensate for a large portion of the time.
And it's the one where the largest debate is, because there's a vested interest in asserting that the police are justified in the majority of cases, with a "few bad apples" being the exceptions.
There's two ways to do that. The first, arguing that while minorities make up a disproportionate amount of police use-of-force deaths, they also make up a disproportionate amount of crime, so police should encounter them more often. The other, arguing that the police are justified in using self-defense methods to protect themselves.
Lets tackle the second one first, because its easier and doesn't make me cry about bad data collection.
The problem is, the evidence doesn't back it up. In fatal police shootings, civilians from minority groups were significantly more likely than Whites to have not been attacking the officer(s) or other civilians, and Black civilians were more than twice as likely as White civilians to have been unarmed. But not all shootings are technically unjustified-in some cases, civilians were armed or attacking others, and thankfully, most uses of force don't escalate to death.

Yes, blacks are disproportionately stopped by police, and suffer disproportionate use of force in comparison to the percentage of the population they comprise. But one must also consider that they commit crimes disproportionately. When you can look at something as obvious as skin color, and tell from that that a black person is three times more likely to commit crimes than a white person, of course you are going to use it in policing.

And before you tell me that not all blacks are criminal, it is your cohort saying that 'all cops are bastards'. Perhaps a Black Lives Matter movement should be founded to try to convince blacks to quit killing each other (2491 blacks were murdered in 2013, of which 2245 were killed by other blacks, but of course murder cannot be ended, just as police violence cannot be ended.)

For example, last year, police killed "only" 1,127 people last year.

But that same year, there were

(Image)

Yes. It's a tragedy, but it cannot really be solved. A bit like car accidents, I suppose.
So what happens if we adjust for those things?

It doesn't get any better.
"The results, which appear in Table 2, show that black civilians have 27 percent higher odds of experiencing force during a stop than white civilians and 28 percent higher odds of officers drawing their guns (OR = 1.27 and 1.28, respectively). Importantly, these findings are net of alternative explanations including civilian behavior, the success of the stop, local crime rates, and neighborhood context."

Again, that is actually lower than would be proportional to their crime rates. Police officers are doing them a favor.

The issue most apologists make is assuming that nationwide crime rates are good at all. Pretty much everyone draws on FBI crime statistics,, which are entirely voluntary, represent about 3% of the country, are skewed towards white and rural areas, don't have any data from Mississippi at all, and has no way of ensuring the accuracy of the little data they do receive

What do you propose that we use?

Now as you might have noticed, a lot of the data has noted that even after you adjust for all these other confounding factors, the racial disparity continues to exist. And that's a major theme-the other factors-poverty, crime rates, the neighborhood-they all make the living situation worse-but the problem still exists anyway.

that could be because there are significant genetic differences between the races

It's a large part of how absolutely toxic the institution of policing is-you can't reform it with the administrative, managerial reforms that get promoted by the state right now. The rot runs deep, and a large part of it is the fault of larger societal attitudes and trends. Body-cameras, punishing the worst offenders, proper use-of-force guidelines help, but the institution is far too gone to be saved.

[/quote]
Do you really think we ought to get rid of the police?

[Alcala-Cordel]

Very few people are actually killed by police use of force in this country. According to this article, about 400 unarmed blacks were killed by U.S. police from 2013 through 2019, representing about one-third of unarmed people killed by police. What is especially funny is that when you consider the proportion of crimes they commit rather than their proportion of the general population they are actually underrepresented in this regard and should instead comprise about one-half of the aforesaid. And I consider generally that no matter how much training they are put through, people will always be accidentally or mistakenly killed by police, just perhaps at a lower rate. There is legitimate cause for grief by the friends and families of those affected, but I fail to see how they can serve as a basis for a political movement, or for the looting and burning of cities. It is, essentially, a Black racialist movement with a political veneer to fool gullible whites into its ranks.

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

Do you realize you're agreeing with a white supremacist or no?

[East Blepia]

Do you realize you're agreeing with a white supremacist or no?

muh ebil nazis

[Esthe]

You misspelled supremacist in the poll.

[Esthe]

Do you realize you're agreeing with a white supremacist or no?

Som w(at wrap woym bark a fox perspn.

Okay, that is so misspelled that it has to be on purpose.

I feel like I’m an English teacher here.

[National Capitalist United States]

Som w(at wrap woym bark a fox perspn.

Okay, that is so misspelled that it has to be on purpose.

I feel like I’m an English teacher here.

Yeah, I think it may be a bait account, based on the spelling.

[Esalia]

not an argument.

I don't feel like effort posting on my lazy Saturday afternoon, thank you.

"Everything you said is wrong but I'm not going to put an ounce of effort into explaining why anything you said is wrong".

Truly a marvel, and definitely not a complete waste of time.

[Fahran]

Oh. My. Goodness. There's someone with a brain here on NSG? Oh praise the Lord, this is truly a blessing. Maybe there is hope after all...?

Hello, based department?

Sir, why are you in my office? Why are you sitting in my chair? That take wasn't even based. It was cringe.

[Fahran]

muh ebil nazis

It's not so much that your ideology is pernicious and unethical in this instance, though I do consider those problems, as that you're chronically wrong about most of the subjects you've broached thus far in the thread. Did you ever get around to reading the numerous sources that were put up for you on education, cognition, and standardized testing? And would you like me to point to more interesting polymorphisms that, while not making your argument any stronger, will at least make it more hilarious?

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

not an argument.

I don't feel like effort posting on my lazy Saturday afternoon, thank you.

Also, when quoting long posts, snip.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Do you realize you're agreeing with a white supremacist or no?

muh ebil nazis

...yeah...