NationStates

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:"Hey, can I get a dollar? I am starving."

"Hey, how about I buy you a meal?"

"I don't want no fuckin meal."

"???"

This is a typical conversation I have with homeless people outside fast food places or gas stations. There are also the "homeless" people at every highway exit ramp that drive a moped home every night. Oh and the "homeless" couple who park their 2018 extended cab in the Walmart parking lot everyday and hold signs at the entrances until they are handed a few hundred dollars for groceries. I guess they shop at whole foods because they promptly leave.

IMO do homeless deserve some small luxuries? Sure. That does not include drugs, alcohol, and tobacco though. Those are likely a large part of why they are homeless. So donate or volunteer at a shelter. I use to work with habitat for humanity (hand up not hand out). Offer food. Don't hand money do the fakes or the addicts. It won't help.

Do you abstain entirely from caffeine? Do you never have coffee, tea, or cola? If not, that's hypocritical and if so, honestly good for you, I truly with no sarcasm am happy for people who can get through life without any psychoactive substances, I sincerely wish I could, but nonetheless, you have some non-drug equivalent, don't you?

Cannot think of a name wrote:

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Alternatively, they're asking you for a favor. You're entirely within your rights to attach conditions to that favor, and pretending it's some overworked moralism to distrust strangers when it's literally the most basic social more every child is taught from birth is kind of ridiculous.

If you're worried the 'cagey' homeless person is going to outsmart you, maybe you need to wear padding.

Again, what does it matter? What you are or aren't willing to give is none of anyones business but your own. It's your shit, you don't have to give them anything. You can choose to give something. They're free to not want that something and not accept it if they don't want it.

Most homeless in my area are bums who lost everything to vices. Giving them money means I contribute to enforcing such a vicious cycle. Drugs, booze, and now weed--these are the three demons one must slay to remain stable.

Ayytaly wrote:Most homeless in my area are bums who lost everything to vices. Giving them money means I contribute to enforcing such a vicious cycle. Drugs, booze, and now weed--these are the three demons one must slay to remain stable.

But the owning class are also bums who contribute absolutely nothing, but the homeless, unlike them, aren't exploiting anyone.

The Emerald Legion wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:If you're worried the 'cagey' homeless person is going to outsmart you, maybe you need to wear padding.

Again, what does it matter? What you are or aren't willing to give is none of anyones business but your own. It's your shit, you don't have to give them anything. You can choose to give something. They're free to not want that something and not accept it if they don't want it.

You can choose to do a lot of shit. What you don't get to choose is what you think is best for someone else and if they don't fit into your narrow self absorbed sense of what they need then they are faking it and are undeserving of your overly labored 'charity'.

This is the part that whizzing by you as you dodge and weave. Sure, you get to moralistically judge and decree that the only thing this person beneath your human consideration can only be trusted with a hamburger and not your precious dollar an a half change you forgot you had in your pocket, but to then decide that if they will not accept your specifically scripted assistance they are in fact faking their need, well...that just doesn't wash.

Ayytaly wrote:Most homeless in my area are bums who lost everything to vices. Giving them money means I contribute to enforcing such a vicious cycle. Drugs, booze, and now weed--these are the three demons one must slay to remain stable.

Took a comprehensive survey, did you?

Cannot think of a name wrote:

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Again, what does it matter? What you are or aren't willing to give is none of anyones business but your own. It's your shit, you don't have to give them anything. You can choose to give something. They're free to not want that something and not accept it if they don't want it.

You can choose to do a lot of shit. What you don't get to choose is what you think is best for someone else and if they don't fit into your narrow self absorbed sense of what they need then they are faking it and are undeserving of your overly labored 'charity'.

This is the part that whizzing by you as you dodge and weave. Sure, you get to moralistically judge and decree that the only thing this person beneath your human consideration can only be trusted with a hamburger and not your precious dollar an a half change you forgot you had in your pocket, but to then decide that if they will not accept your specifically scripted assistance they are in fact faking their need, well...that just doesn't wash.

See, the thing is, I've literally had people ask "Hey, I need money for gas." I don't carry money, so I offer to just go inside pay for the gas. But no, they really want the money. When their actions and their stated goal don't line up, it's 100% legit to be suspicious.
a
You can pretend we're just being moralizing assholes but there really are people who are just scummy and want your money and don't actually need help.

The Emerald Legion wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:You can choose to do a lot of shit. What you don't get to choose is what you think is best for someone else and if they don't fit into your narrow self absorbed sense of what they need then they are faking it and are undeserving of your overly labored 'charity'.

This is the part that whizzing by you as you dodge and weave. Sure, you get to moralistically judge and decree that the only thing this person beneath your human consideration can only be trusted with a hamburger and not your precious dollar an a half change you forgot you had in your pocket, but to then decide that if they will not accept your specifically scripted assistance they are in fact faking their need, well...that just doesn't wash.

See, the thing is, I've literally had people ask "Hey, I need money for gas." I don't carry money, so I offer to just go inside pay for the gas. But no, they really want the money. When their actions and their stated goal don't line up, it's 100% legit to be suspicious.

It seems strange to me that everyone who has this moralistic blanket distrust of people in shitty situations all have the exact same story that just happens to have also appeared in media.

You don't find that strange? I find that strange that your story sounds almost exactly like a scene in a movie or two I've watched. Almost like this can't possibly have happened word for word to everybody.

Also, I've had a lot of people in different positions screw me over. The absolute least of those I'm worried about is someone who might get some loose change from me who most likely will actually be someone in need and not this roaming band of supervillains tricking people out of their pocket change.

The Emerald Legion wrote:a
You can pretend we're just being moralizing assholes but there really are people who are just scummy and want your money and don't actually need help.

Stop using them as an excuse for you to not be interested in the plight of those less fortunate than you. You just don't want to give, it's not a moralistic failing on their part no matter how many anecdotal stories you conjure. You just want an excuse. You don't need one. As you have belabored pointlessly, it's your money. You don't have to do shit with it. You don't need to take an extra shit on people who are struggling just to justify it. It's unseemly.

We’re used to thinking of money as a medium of exchange for services rendered or goods received/taken.

Giving money? It just seems unusual.

It would be like if I said: “I’m going to study the exam material only after the exam is over.” Lots of confusion would arise though it’s not necessarily illogical.

Infected Mushroom wrote:We’re used to thinking of money as a medium of exchange for services rendered or goods received/taken.

Giving money? It just seems unusual.

It would be like if I said: “I’m going to study the exam material only after the exam is over.” Lots of confusion would arise though it’s not necessarily illogical.

But money is transferred without a rendered good or service all the time. Taxes, donations, fines... I think of it like a voucher. It's a piece of paper of arbitrarily assigned value that represents a contribution of some kind, a voucher to be provided a good or service in return for providing someone else a good or service. If you're giving away money, you're letting someone else have that voucher and letting someone else reap the reward of your labor, which happens all the time. What do you think parenting is?

Anagonia wrote:

Ifreann wrote:Or they are homeless and just want your money, not you investigating their life to see if they really deserve help.

So just give homeless people money without considering the consequences based on the circumstances?

Ba-ZINGA! That or pass laws making it illegal for rich people to buy booze and tobacco.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

The Emerald Legion wrote:
See, the thing is, I've literally had people ask "Hey, I need money for gas." I don't carry money, so I offer to just go inside pay for the gas. But no, they really want the money. When their actions and their stated goal don't line up, it's 100% legit to be suspicious.

It seems strange to me that everyone who has this moralistic blanket distrust of people in shitty situations all have the exact same story that just happens to have also appeared in media.

You don't find that strange? I find that strange that your story sounds almost exactly like a scene in a movie or two I've watched. Almost like this can't possibly have happened word for word to everybody.

Also, I've had a lot of people in different positions screw me over. The absolute least of those I'm worried about is someone who might get some loose change from me who most likely will actually be someone in need and not this roaming band of supervillains tricking people out of their pocket change.

The Emerald Legion wrote:a
You can pretend we're just being moralizing assholes but there really are people who are just scummy and want your money and don't actually need help.

Stop using them as an excuse for you to not be interested in the plight of those less fortunate than you. You just don't want to give, it's not a moralistic failing on their part no matter how many anecdotal stories you conjure. You just want an excuse. You don't need one. As you have belabored pointlessly, it's your money. You don't have to do shit with it. You don't need to take an extra shit on people who are struggling just to justify it. It's unseemly.

A fellow came up to me in the street once with a story about how his son was in a nearby hospital but he had gotten a flat tire and needed cash to get it fixed so would I go with him to get some for him out of an ATM. I gave him a $20 because he had come up with an original story to tell me. Ask any economist: if you want poor people to not be poor, just give them money. They are not poor because they are less moral, less intelligent, less able to know what they need or less industrious. They are poor because they have less money. Just give money to the poor.

Ayytaly wrote:Most homeless in my area are bums who lost everything to vices. Giving them money means I contribute to enforcing such a vicious cycle. Drugs, booze, and now weed--these are the three demons one must slay to remain stable.

what if I'm middle class and can do all 3 in a socially acceptable way

I give cash to homeless people.

they beg to people so they can beg when they need to beg

Why shouldn't I care what the homeless spend the money I give them on? Unlike most people, who are able to look at their financial situation and evaluate whether they can afford a daily coffee/a steam game/alcoholism/meth habit and still pay rent, people who are homeless and begging for money have demonstrated by the very act of panhandling that they cannot make that financial decision. Do I think they deserve to be homeless? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the way to help them is through a cash handout they may spend irresponsibly.
On the other hand though, if the local government said they were going to raise taxes a bit to open a new homeless shelter, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I will concede that some people end up homeless as a result of shitty situations beyond their control, but at that point, even if they can be trusted to manage their own finances, there's nothing stopping them from utilizing aid that would be available to any other homeless person to get back on their feet, so they probably aren't the ones panhandling.

Peach The President wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Because I'm not a charity, I pay taxes that go to fund welfare that's enough.

Whether it's enough depends on how much you pay in taxes. If it's $1 because your accountant is that good, then no. Sorry, it's not enough.

A haypenny is enough as far as I'm concerned.

Peach The President wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:A ha'penny is enough as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, the percentage of a ha'penny that goes to fund welfare, would be about a quarter of that. Rounds down to zero, like you care.

(Btw, not including SS or Medicare since those are welfare for you)

I don't need either of them, I'd gladly give up the right to use them if it meant I didn't have to waste money paying in. Social security is a Ponzi scheme and I've got far better insurance than medicare.

Ayytaly wrote:Most homeless in my area are bums who lost everything to vices. Giving them money means I contribute to enforcing such a vicious cycle. Drugs, booze, and now weed--these are the three demons one must slay to remain stable.

Your idea is based on a misconception and stereotype that a lot of folks have about the lower and poorer classes. The whole idea that "Poor/homeless people spend their money on drugs " is an exaggerated truth.

It is quite the opposite actually.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/16/middle-class-consume-more-drugs-and-alcohol-than-poorer-people

Middle-class people consume more alcohol and illegal drugs than those living below the poverty line, according to a report by a cross-party group of academics and campaigners.

The report, compiled by the Social Metrics Commission, compared the circumstances of those living above and below the poverty line. It found two-thirds (66%) of those who are comparatively better off have drunk to excess in the last year, compared with just 58% of the most deprived. It also found 22% had taken illegal drugs, 9% higher than less well-off people.

Vorausen wrote:

Ayytaly wrote:Most homeless in my area are bums who lost everything to vices. Giving them money means I contribute to enforcing such a vicious cycle. Drugs, booze, and now weed--these are the three demons one must slay to remain stable.

Your idea is based on a misconception and stereotype that a lot of folks have about the lower and poorer classes. The whole idea that "Poor/homeless people spend their money on drugs " is an exaggerated truth.

It is quite the opposite actually.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/16/middle-class-consume-more-drugs-and-alcohol-than-poorer-people

Middle-class people consume more alcohol and illegal drugs than those living below the poverty line, according to a report by a cross-party group of academics and campaigners.

The report, compiled by the Social Metrics Commission, compared the circumstances of those living above and below the poverty line. It found two-thirds (66%) of those who are comparatively better off have drunk to excess in the last year, compared with just 58% of the most deprived. It also found 22% had taken illegal drugs, 9% higher than less well-off people.

As it goes, speed is only bad if it doesn't come in a nice little orange bottle. A healthy bottle!

Because I don’t care about them. Just as simple as that.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

The Emerald Legion wrote:
See, the thing is, I've literally had people ask "Hey, I need money for gas." I don't carry money, so I offer to just go inside pay for the gas. But no, they really want the money. When their actions and their stated goal don't line up, it's 100% legit to be suspicious.

It seems strange to me that everyone who has this moralistic blanket distrust of people in shitty situations all have the exact same story that just happens to have also appeared in media.

You don't find that strange? I find that strange that your story sounds almost exactly like a scene in a movie or two I've watched. Almost like this can't possibly have happened word for word to everybody.

Also, I've had a lot of people in different positions screw me over. The absolute least of those I'm worried about is someone who might get some loose change from me who most likely will actually be someone in need and not this roaming band of supervillains tricking people out of their pocket change.

The Emerald Legion wrote:a
You can pretend we're just being moralizing assholes but there really are people who are just scummy and want your money and don't actually need help.

Stop using them as an excuse for you to not be interested in the plight of those less fortunate than you. You just don't want to give, it's not a moralistic failing on their part no matter how many anecdotal stories you conjure. You just want an excuse. You don't need one. As you have belabored pointlessly, it's your money. You don't have to do shit with it. You don't need to take an extra shit on people who are struggling just to justify it. It's unseemly.

So now you're literally calling me a liar.

No, it's not some made up shit from a movie. What kind of movies do you watch that have homeless people scamming folks for money?

And again, it's not an excuse because I do give. Rarely just outright money, but I've happily given other shit. Whether it's food, gas, whatever.

You don't get to decree that other people aren't interested in giving just because they're wary. That's a fucked up stance.

I work hard and pay taxes. The government gave my taxes to the homeless.But will tomorrow's homeless become unhomeless just because of the cash?I don't think it's possible. Few homeless people have a steady job.Why not use the money to create a profitable business? In this way, the government will no longer bear the additional tax burden, the homeless will get jobs, dignity and shelter, and the society will get stability, security and more economic vitality.If the operation is good, the government can get a return on investment as an investor, while enterprises can expand to provide jobs for more homeless people.
Offering cash to the homeless is the laziest, least effective, and most responsive of all.It can give government offices a bit of a good evaluation among some people, but it can't solve the problem

Most of the time its because I lack hard currency on my person, and the second the disenfranchised pull out an interac terminal I'll know we've hit some new terrifying stage of society.
I've offered to buy food if I happen to be going into a fast food place or convenience store, and its rare that I'm refused outright. This is all of course anecdotal, but its my experience on the issue.
Vancouver, Canada for some regional context.

I don't think that giving cash to a homeless person is really going to change things. It may be a natural human response to help someone in need in that moment, and it might make you feel good, but it's not going to change their situation.

In the UK, homeless people can usually get food and help. What people really need is to be helped to help themselves, to take responsibility and build a life. I know that's easier said than done. But it's a better solution for the individual in the long run, then becoming depdendent. There are problems on a bigger scale that we need to tackle, like house prices and rent rates. And jobs. We need to focus on helping people to be independent.

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:I work hard and pay taxes. The government gave my taxes to the homeless.But will tomorrow's homeless become unhomeless just because of the cash?I don't think it's possible. Few homeless people have a steady job.Why not use the money to create a profitable business? In this way, the government will no longer bear the additional tax burden, the homeless will get jobs, dignity and shelter, and the society will get stability, security and more economic vitality.If the operation is good, the government can get a return on investment as an investor, while enterprises can expand to provide jobs for more homeless people.
Offering cash to the homeless is the laziest, least effective, and most responsive of all.It can give government offices a bit of a good evaluation among some people, but it can't solve the problem

Businesses need an address to be registered at.

At least over here