NATION

PASSWORD

American Politics Thread V: We're Just Biden Our Time ...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Borderlands of Rojava
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14780
Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:37 am

Kowani wrote:Texas House Republicans pretend they don’t know how the "overturning elections" section made its way into the state's voter suppression bill, say they don't plan to revive it in a special session

In a sweeping overhaul of Texas elections law that Republicans rushed toward approval in the waning hours of the legislative session, one provision stood out to critics as particularly alarming.

The hastily-added clause would have made it easy for a judge to overturn an election, even if there were only thin evidence of fraud. With former President Donald Trump’s historic efforts to nullify his November loss still fresh in their minds, Democrats singled out the measure as irresponsible.

“Just think about that — your election, YOUR election could be overturned without the other side being required to prove actual voter fraud,” said state Rep. Julie Johnson (D), in an impassioned speech on the floor of the Texas House. “The implications of this are unthinkable. To make matters worse, the provision was not in either the Senate or the House version of the bill.”

The bill never passed, dying at midnight on May 31 after the Democrats blocked a vote on it by walking out. Yet policy debates have given way to an even more basic question: Who added the “Overturning Elections” section to it?

One of the members of the conference committee that crafted the final version of the bill, state Rep. Travis Clardy (R), says he doesn’t know. Other top Republicans who worked on the final draft of the legislation say they don’t know either.

What’s more, Clardy now denounces the measures related to overturning elections and says Republicans don’t plan to revive them in a future bill.

“There was zero appetite or intent or willingness to create some low bar where a single judge can overturn the results of an election,” Clardy said in an interview with Hearst Newspapers. “That would be horrendous policy, and it would never be healthy for the democracy.”

Democratic members say there is no way those provisions were inserted by mistake. They say they raised concerns about them with Republicans when there was time to spare for the bill to be revised.

The sections would have lowered the standard of proof to overturn an election from “clear and convincing” evidence to a “preponderance of the evidence.” And they gave judges the ability to void elections even if it couldn’t be demonstrated that fraudulent ballots made a difference in the outcome.

If the bill had passed, Texas would have been one of few states to have lowered the bar so much, opening the door to a flood of potential election challenges, election law experts said.

“If we deliberately design a system that says all you have to do is come up with a simple preponderance — that is, just barely more evidence than the other side — and we’re going to throw out the elections, when we have a whole gamut of election procedures in place that we justifiably expect to produce reliable results in the normal course, we’re really undermining that,” said Steven Huefner, professor of law at the Ohio State University.

The final version of Senate Bill 7 varied greatly from its previous iterations. Such changes are not uncommon at the Texas Capitol, where the Legislature meets once every two years for 140 days of policy-making and political point-scoring. Sometimes the results are sloppy.

When the Texas Legislative Council, the nonpartisan agency whose lawyers and researchers advise the lawmakers drafting legislation, returned the bill, Clardy said he was caught by surprise by some of the new provisions, which he said were not among revisions submitted by the bill’s authors.

In addition to the last-minute provision on overturning elections, another late addition said early voting on Sundays could not start before 1 p.m. Democrats decried the provision as an attempt to undermine “souls to the polls” events organized by Black churches. Clardy later told NPR it was a typo.

“I don’t want to put the blame on the Legislative Council lawyers that worked on this,” Clardy said. “We never intended and never asked for or wrote ourselves some section called overturning elections. That was not the desire at all.”

He added: “I don’t know about what input other conferees may have had with Lege Council; I’m just saying that as a lawyer, and understanding the import and difference in standards, I would never agree with preponderance and would have and will insist on clear and convincing.”

A legislative council spokeswoman declined to comment, saying the drafting of bills is “privileged and confidential.”

State Rep. Nicole Collier, one of three Democrats on the conference committee and chair of the Texas Legislative Black Caucus, wasn’t buying Republicans’ claims that the language was added by mistake.

“They had time to review it,” Collier said. “The fact that the conference report was signed on Saturday” — the day before it went to the House floor — “means that they had read it, and they approved it.”

During the final debate on the bill, House Elections Committee Chair Briscoe Cain, R-Deer Park, said some amendments he supported were mysteriously missing from the final version. Cain said this week he knew as much as Clardy about where the “Overturning Elections” section came from, and had nothing further to add.

Sen. Bryan Hughes (R), Senate chair of the conference committee, declined to comment on the matter. But in a statement posted to Twitter on Thursday about SB 7, Hughes said the House ordered the conference committee draft, “so any errors didn’t ‘come over’ from the Senate.”

Elizabeth Álvarez-Bingham, the main lawyer who consulted with House Republicans on the bill, said she would not have ever recommended lowering the burden of proof.

“Election contests exist as a role of the judiciary,” Álvarez-Bingham said. “They’re only supposed to override the election if you can meet the highest possible burden, and that’s the way it should be.”

The language in the bill lowering the standard of proof was in an earlier version the Senate approved in April, though there was little discussion about it at the time. State Rep. Cole Hefner, R-Mount Pleasant, had proposed the change in a separate bill that was withdrawn before it could be heard in committee. He did not respond to a request for comment.

State Sen. Paul Bettencourt (R), who served along with Clardy on the conference committee that signed the final version of the legislation, said he also does not want to see the standard of proof lowered and would prefer judges maintain their discretion.

As for the part allowing judges to void elections, no other bills filed this session included the language, according to a search of Texas’ legislative database.

Álvarez-Bingham noted almost identical language already exists in Texas Election Code. It can be found now within a section laying out a judge’s ability to compel voters to reveal their vote during an election contest.

In current law, it is posed as an alternative when the number of illegal votes cannot be calculated. Without that distinction, critics argued, and especially in combination with the lower standard, the provision could have been interpreted to mean judges could reverse an election without making any attempt to determine whether fraudulent votes were numerous enough to change the outcome.

The public never had a chance to vet the new provisions put together, said Sen. Beverly Powell (D), another one of the Democrats on the conference committee.

“Instead, like much of SB7, the provision was crafted behind closed doors and rushed through in the 11th hour without input from minority voter advocacy groups and others,” Powell said in a statement. “I am hopeful that minority voter advocacy groups, local election officials and the public will have a greater say and input during a special session on monumental voting legislation.”

The special session, Clardy said, will give lawmakers a second chance to clean up the bill and include only the language they believe in strongly.

“The proof will be in the pudding on this,” he said. “When we do refile the bills for election integrity, when we come back for a special, whenever the governor sets that and puts us on the call, these matters are going to be corrected.”


They won't revive it in a special session. They'll revive it in a normal session since they're the anti freedom party of Trump.
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:37 am

San Lumen wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Then you'd be very wrong my friend.


Okay anything else besides social issues, what about the economy, or the end of the unjust wage slavery and unfair wealth distribution for the top 1%?


We have better environmental regulations and have increased the amount of protected land too. The economy isn't something you change overnight.

Despite all that regulation had been rolled back over the past 4 years.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
Tarsonis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16625
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:44 am

Dresderstan wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
We really don't. All I've been able to surmise from your posts is that you've watched Hamilton far too many times.

Then you'd be very wrong my friend.



Not really. Spouting off about revolution without having the slightest comprehension about what you actually want to achieve and the cost it will take to get there? We're right about 15 minutes into the run time.

Let me know when Groff shows up, he was the best part.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45464
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:46 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
People are still free to vote for them.



People voted for them in free and fair elections. Obviously that's what they want.

If they're even on the ballot, and don't succumb to the "free press" that one side is evil and the other isn't.

"free and fair" is not what they are.


Hmmmm.

Maybe you should educate this massive base to use the write in section and fight the conspiracy!
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45464
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:52 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Republicans dont' believe in free and fair elections or democracy.

How are our elections not free and fair. You still haven;t answered what you want to happen in your revolution.

Neither do you apparently. Proportional representation is the only free and fair electoral system.


Nah. You have to sell your message better. Build a base by taking town councils and spreading out. That of course takes time which goes against the American desire for instant gratification.

The funny thing? Let’s say your guy (what party are we talking about) magically takes the POTUS in the election. It won’t change much if anything and the person would be a one term.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Picairn
Senator
 
Posts: 4141
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:55 am

Salus Maior wrote:We’re not in the progressive era anymore.

Many issues from that era are still prevalent today (corporations, lobbying, political corruption, unions, welfare, the environment, etc). You think we can't replicate the lessons of the past? The Democratic Party is not doing enough to boost activism at local and state level, as well as failing to concentrate on state and local elections. Such failure is fatal when you realize the states draw the political districts.

Dresderstan wrote:And what has been achieved in the past 30 odd years, or even the past 10?

Obamacare, Dodd-Frank, 2009 Stimulus, CHIP, Paris climate agreement? The Obama presidency was significantly hampered by Republicans because Democrat voters got complacent in 2010 while the Tea Party galvanized Republican turnout. 2010 was also the census year, which allowed Republican-controlled states to gerrymander. https://www.npr.org/2016/03/04/46905202 ... -heres-why

If people can't even bother to vote in midterms, you think they can launch a revolution with you?
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Salus Maior wrote:Nothing we say here actually matters.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Certified brunch-loving liberal and resident optimist of NSG. I'm male. All Hail Biden!

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45464
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:55 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Then you'd be very wrong my friend.



Not really. Spouting off about revolution without having the slightest comprehension about what you actually want to achieve and the cost it will take to get there? We're right about 15 minutes into the run time.

Let me know when Groff shows up, he was the best part.


You say
The price of my love's not a price that you're willing to pay
You cry
In your tea which you hurl in the sea when you see me go by
Why so sad?
Remember we made an arrangement when you went away
Now you're making me mad
Remember, despite our estrangement, I'm your man
You'll be back, soon you'll see
You'll remember you belong to me
You'll be back, time will tell
You'll remember that I served you well
Oceans rise, empires fall
We have seen each other through it all
And when push comes to shove
I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love!
Da da da dat da, dat da da da da ya da
Da da dat dat da ya da!
Da da da dat da, dat da da da da ya da
Da da dat dat da
You say our love is draining and you can't go on
You'll be the one complaining when I am gone
And no, don't change the subject
'Cause you're my favorite subject
My sweet, submissive subject
My loyal, royal subject
Forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever
You'll be back like before
I will fight the fight and win the war
For your love, for your praise
And I'll love you 'til my dying days
When you're gone, I'll go mad
So don't throw away this thing we had
'Cause when push comes to shove
I will kill your friends and family to remind you of my love
Da da da dat da, dat da da da da ya da
Da da dat dat da ya da!
Da da da dat da, dat da da da da ya da
Da da dat-
Everybody!
Da da da dat da, dat da da da da ya da
Da da dat dat da ya da!
Da da da dat da, dat da da da da ya da, da da da
Dat dat da ya da!
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:57 am

Picairn wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:We’re not in the progressive era anymore.

Many issues from that era are still prevalent today (corporations, lobbying, political corruption, unions, welfare, the environment, etc). You think we can't replicate the lessons of the past? The Democratic Party is not doing enough to boost activism at local and state level, as well as failing to concentrate on state and local elections. Such failure is fatal when you realize the states draw the political districts.

Dresderstan wrote:And what has been achieved in the past 30 odd years, or even the past 10?

Obamacare, Dodd-Frank, 2009 Stimulus, CHIP, Paris climate agreement? The Obama presidency was significantly hampered by Republicans because Democrat voters got complacent in 2010 while the Tea Party galvanized Republican turnout. 2010 was also the census year, which allowed Republican-controlled states to gerrymander. https://www.npr.org/2016/03/04/46905202 ... -heres-why

If people can't even bother to vote in midterms, you think they can launch a revolution with you?

No it's because elections and non violent activism isn't doing the job to enact change.

Like I said, all that shit got reversed or had little to no good impact at large.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60318
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:03 am

Dresderstan wrote:
Picairn wrote:Many issues from that era are still prevalent today (corporations, lobbying, political corruption, unions, welfare, the environment, etc). You think we can't replicate the lessons of the past? The Democratic Party is not doing enough to boost activism at local and state level, as well as failing to concentrate on state and local elections. Such failure is fatal when you realize the states draw the political districts.


Obamacare, Dodd-Frank, 2009 Stimulus, CHIP, Paris climate agreement? The Obama presidency was significantly hampered by Republicans because Democrat voters got complacent in 2010 while the Tea Party galvanized Republican turnout. 2010 was also the census year, which allowed Republican-controlled states to gerrymander. https://www.npr.org/2016/03/04/46905202 ... -heres-why

If people can't even bother to vote in midterms, you think they can launch a revolution with you?

No it's because elections and non violent activism isn't doing the job to enact change.

Like I said, all that shit got reversed or had little to no good impact at large.


How about starting with local elections? What is the goal of your revolution?

Not all of it. I’m sorry no one has a magic wand to fix everything tomorrow.
Last edited by San Lumen on Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Picairn
Senator
 
Posts: 4141
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:04 am

Dresderstan wrote:No it's because elections and non violent activism isn't doing the job to enact change.

Again, there has been no major revolution on US soil since 1789. Not even the turbulent 60s had any revolution on a large scale.

Like I said, all that shit got reversed or had little to no good impact at large.

Obamacare is still largely intact (save for the individual mandate). CHIP is still intact. We rejoined the Agreement.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Salus Maior wrote:Nothing we say here actually matters.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Certified brunch-loving liberal and resident optimist of NSG. I'm male. All Hail Biden!

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:05 am

San Lumen wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:No it's because elections and non violent activism isn't doing the job to enact change.

Like I said, all that shit got reversed or had little to no good impact at large.


How about starting with local elections? What is the goal of your revolution?

Not all of it. I’m sorry no one has a magic wand to fix everything tomorrow.

Yes because local elections that have turnout in the 30s will change everything /s

And what has "free and fair elections" and "non violent activism" gotten us, nowhere.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45464
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:06 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
How about starting with local elections? What is the goal of your revolution?

Not all of it. I’m sorry no one has a magic wand to fix everything tomorrow.

Yes because local elections that have turnout in the 30s will change everything /s

And what has "free and fair elections" and "non violent activism" gotten us, nowhere.


*shrugs* You have to sell your message better.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:07 am

Picairn wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:No it's because elections and non violent activism isn't doing the job to enact change.

Again, there has been no major revolution on US soil since 1789. Not even the turbulent 60s had any revolution on a large scale.

Like I said, all that shit got reversed or had little to no good impact at large.

Obamacare is still largely intact (save for the individual mandate). CHIP is still intact. We rejoined the Agreement.

Convenient to just ignore the civil war entirely.

Useless as healthcare is still expensive as fuck, CHIP matters little, and too little too late to rejoin.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60318
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:07 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
How about starting with local elections? What is the goal of your revolution?

Not all of it. I’m sorry no one has a magic wand to fix everything tomorrow.

Yes because local elections that have turnout in the 30s will change everything /s

And what has "free and fair elections" and "non violent activism" gotten us, nowhere.


How about getting more people to vote or selling your message better? Amazing concept I know.

Tell me what the goal of this Revolution is and you expect to get any support or sympathy once you enter the Capitol?
Last edited by San Lumen on Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:08 am

San Lumen wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Yes because local elections that have turnout in the 30s will change everything /s

And what has "free and fair elections" and "non violent activism" gotten us, nowhere.


How about getting more people to vote? Amazing concept I know.

Tell me what the goal of this Revolution is and you expect to get any support or sympathy once you enter the Capitol?

Yes because the solution is to get more people voting in a corrupt system. /s

You already know this.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
Kilobugya
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5997
Founded: Apr 05, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kilobugya » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:09 am

Dresderstan wrote:Convenient to just ignore the civil war entirely.


The civil war was actually an attempt at "violent revolution" (even if a reactionary, counter-revolution). And it failed. And it was at a time and situation where it had a much better chance of working than anything you could try in modern USA.
Secular humanist and trans-humanist, rationalist, democratic socialist, pacifist, dreaming very high to not perform too low.
Economic Left/Right: -9.50 - Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:10 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Convenient to just ignore the civil war entirely.


The civil war was actually an attempt at "violent revolution" (even if a reactionary, counter-revolution). And it failed. And it was at a time and situation where it had a much better chance of working than anything you could try in modern USA.

It was still a violent revolution with over 600,000 men dead.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45464
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:12 am

Dresderstan wrote:
Kilobugya wrote:
The civil war was actually an attempt at "violent revolution" (even if a reactionary, counter-revolution). And it failed. And it was at a time and situation where it had a much better chance of working than anything you could try in modern USA.

It was still a violent revolution with over 600,000 men dead.


Still; it wasn’t about the two party system.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Kilobugya
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5997
Founded: Apr 05, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kilobugya » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:13 am

Dresderstan wrote:Yes because the solution is to get more people voting in a corrupt system. /s


It's not like there is the solution. Politics is a struggle of power, and in order to have your side prevail, you need to use more than one magical solution. You've to combine air and land and sea and espionage and propaganda and ... to win a war, the same way you've to combine methods to prevail in politics. If you do just voting, or just protesting, or just boycotting or ... you'll fail. And no, violence is not a part of it, for ethical reasons but also because it'll undermine nearly all the rest.

Then, yes, even in a "corrupt" system voting can change things. It makes it harder, but not impossible.
Secular humanist and trans-humanist, rationalist, democratic socialist, pacifist, dreaming very high to not perform too low.
Economic Left/Right: -9.50 - Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60318
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:15 am

Dresderstan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
How about getting more people to vote? Amazing concept I know.

Tell me what the goal of this Revolution is and you expect to get any support or sympathy once you enter the Capitol?

Yes because the solution is to get more people voting in a corrupt system. /s

You already know this.


Corrupt because your candidates don’t always win? You yourself called California gerrymandered because Los Angeles had a large number of seats and called some districts too large showing you don’t understand population density.

You called your states elections unfair because the winner got less land area.

I don’t know what your goal is. You’ve yet to elaborate other than I want Revolution.

User avatar
Picairn
Senator
 
Posts: 4141
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:16 am

Dresderstan wrote:Convenient to just ignore the civil war entirely.

Revolution for slavery. Yeah, good example. Aside from the fact that there was no mass revolt by the populace for a noble cause and it was more of the states seceding to preserve the institution of slavery, the result was total abolition of slavery, citizenship and voting rights for black people. The opposite of what the Southern states intended.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Salus Maior wrote:Nothing we say here actually matters.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.
♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Certified brunch-loving liberal and resident optimist of NSG. I'm male. All Hail Biden!

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:16 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Yes because the solution is to get more people voting in a corrupt system. /s


It's not like there is the solution. Politics is a struggle of power, and in order to have your side prevail, you need to use more than one magical solution. You've to combine air and land and sea and espionage and propaganda and ... to win a war, the same way you've to combine methods to prevail in politics. If you do just voting, or just protesting, or just boycotting or ... you'll fail. And no, violence is not a part of it, for ethical reasons but also because it'll undermine nearly all the rest.

Then, yes, even in a "corrupt" system voting can change things. It makes it harder, but not impossible.

No it doesn't, if voting, and protesting doesn't work, violence is the only option and considering all that we've had for years the same non violence BS is not working.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
Borderlands of Rojava
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14780
Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:17 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Yes because the solution is to get more people voting in a corrupt system. /s


It's not like there is the solution. Politics is a struggle of power, and in order to have your side prevail, you need to use more than one magical solution. You've to combine air and land and sea and espionage and propaganda and ... to win a war, the same way you've to combine methods to prevail in politics. If you do just voting, or just protesting, or just boycotting or ... you'll fail. And no, violence is not a part of it, for ethical reasons but also because it'll undermine nearly all the rest.

Then, yes, even in a "corrupt" system voting can change things. It makes it harder, but not impossible.


It's like how as a socialist, I don't wanna live in a society where markets are a thing. But if I have to, I'm gonna use the money to the best of my abilities to help others. If it costs money to purchase food, we gotta buy food to give out to others who cannot. If it costs money to get representation in court, we gotta pool money to do that. Voting isn't perfect but I will say that sometimes you gotta vote, especially on a local level.
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

User avatar
Dresderstan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6203
Founded: Jan 18, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Dresderstan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:17 am

San Lumen wrote:
Dresderstan wrote:Yes because the solution is to get more people voting in a corrupt system. /s

You already know this.


Corrupt because your candidates don’t always win? You yourself called California gerrymandered because Los Angeles had a large number of seats and called some districts too large showing you don’t understand population density.

You called your states elections unfair because the winner got less land area.

I don’t know what your goal is. You’ve yet to elaborate other than I want Revolution.

Stop lying and get over yourself.
22 year old, PA male. Love sports like baseball, hockey and American football, enjoy video games and TV. Music chart nerd, can't live without it. I'm gay. Anti-government revolutionary, one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Revolution for America
Imagine being shocked about the fact of greed, corruption, and abuse of power in government.
The media is a propaganda tool fueling the two parties hyperpartisanship and killing the country, it's time to end the "freedom of the press"
Violence against the government is and should be accepted by the people, especially when said government wants to and is actively stripping away your constitutional rights.
Remake the Free World, wipe the slate clean, a nation born and baptized in blood and fire shall be reborn again.

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45464
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:19 am

Dresderstan wrote:
Kilobugya wrote:
It's not like there is the solution. Politics is a struggle of power, and in order to have your side prevail, you need to use more than one magical solution. You've to combine air and land and sea and espionage and propaganda and ... to win a war, the same way you've to combine methods to prevail in politics. If you do just voting, or just protesting, or just boycotting or ... you'll fail. And no, violence is not a part of it, for ethical reasons but also because it'll undermine nearly all the rest.

Then, yes, even in a "corrupt" system voting can change things. It makes it harder, but not impossible.

No it doesn't, if voting, and protesting doesn't work, violence is the only option and considering all that we've had for years the same non violence BS is not working.


Wake me when the revolution is over.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Andsed, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Cokoland, Dogmeat, Draconikus, Engadine Mcdonalds 1997, Enormous Gentiles, Ethel mermania, Galloism, Heloin, Ifreann, Infected Mushroom, LibRight Libertarianism, Lower Nubia, Omniabstracta, Pasong Tirad, Quartia and Karafuto, SD_Film Artists, The Huskar Social Union, The Jamesian Republic, Union of Socialist Council-Republics, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads