American Politics Thread V: We're Just Biden Our Time ...

[Bombadil]

But there's one more component we have to talk about-the moneyed engine of the GOP. In this case, I speak of the Heritage Foundation.

If I type in 'US voter fraud', for example, maybe different for others, but The Heritage Foundation comes up in the top 3 with this link..

Link

Look at those numbers upfront.. 1328 Proven Instances of Voter Fraud.. 1143 Criminal Convictions.. now even as these are really drops in the ocean if you consider some 150M people voted in the 2020 elections.. but..

..check the year drop down and this covers 1979-2021.. that's 42 years..!

I mean, even their own website on the issue is notable for it's paucity of actual evidence, presented somewhat disingenuously, but even then it's.. nothing..

In the words of Trump himself.. SAD!

[Kilobugya]

More to the point, the minimum amount of fraudulent votes necessary for Trump to have "really" won in 2020, is like a million.

More like 42 000 votes in three states (Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin) but sure, 42k votes is enormous number of fraudulent votes, especially concentrated in those three relatively small states. And there is no evidence of fraud in the hundred of votes, much less in the tens of thousands.

The only US presidential election that might have been stolen due to fraud is the 2000 one, were Bush "won" by only 300 votes, some of them in very suspicious conditions. But fraud on 300 votes might have been possible (although it's more things like confusing butterfly ballots so direct fraud), fraud on 42k votes is a completely different world.

[Grave_n_idle]

Based on initial sampling, celebrity presidents do not seem to be a long-term viable prospect, that is true.

Somehow Reagan stuck around

True. But he was awful, and the beginning of the end, so it still applies.

[Vassenor]

True. But he was awful, and the beginning of the end, so it still applies.

So awful, that his baleful presence overcame a Democratic House majority.

And what objective good things did he accomplish?

[Atheris]

And what objective good things did he accomplish?

He declassified GPS.

However, his massive military spending increases and his tax cuts could never have been done without Congress. Of which half was majority Democratic. In the last quarter of his Presidency, so was the Senate.

What a strange contrast with now. Manchin thwarting a Democratic agenda when technically Democrats hold all three seats of power. Reagan is a polarizing figure now but I guess he wasn't then.

I mean, you know. The Soviet Union.

[San Lumen]

But the problem is that Republicans are doing everything they can to rig the election by preventing minorities from voting, and the only way to prevent that is passing HR1 and Manchin opposes it too...

If the Democrats had not committed the massive vote Fraud against Republican President Trump the Republicans like they did, because they hate him and us for over 4 Years anyway, the Republicans would not be making any such laws you guys are interpreting this way.

There was no fraud and you have given no concrete evidence there was. The laws are being passed because Republicans don’t believe in free and fair elections and want to be able to win without getting the most votes .

Counting mail in ballots is not fraud.

If there was such fraud why has no one been investigated or arrested? Why did this massive fraud skip every other election?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

True. But he was awful, and the beginning of the end, so it still applies.

So awful, that his baleful presence overcame a Democratic House majority.

So awful that millions of poor children, especially urban minority children, never knew their dads cause they got caught with a small amount of drugs and immediately sent upstate. Thanks Ronald Reagan, this is why most black and hispanic people thought of you as the devil's own.

[Vassenor]

And what objective good things did he accomplish?

He declassified GPS.

However, his massive military spending increases and his tax cuts could never have been done without Congress. Of which half was majority Democratic. In the last quarter of his Presidency, so was the Senate.

What a strange contrast with now. Manchin thwarting a Democratic agenda when technically Democrats hold all three seats of power. Reagan is a polarizing figure now but I guess he wasn't then.

And how's the trickle down wealth going?

[Gravlen]

And what objective good things did he accomplish?

He declassified GPS.

However, his massive military spending increases and his tax cuts could never have been done without Congress. Of which half was majority Democratic. In the last quarter of his Presidency, so was the Senate.

What a strange contrast with now. Manchin thwarting a Democratic agenda when technically Democrats hold all three seats of power. Reagan is a polarizing figure now but I guess he wasn't then.

He is indeed a polarizing figure. Especially among republicans. Reagan would not be welcome in Trump's Republican party.

[San Lumen]

So awful, that his baleful presence overcame a Democratic House majority.

So awful that millions of poor children, especially urban minority children, never knew their dads cause they got caught with a small amount of drugs and immediately sent upstate. Thanks Ronald Reagan, this is why most black and hispanic people thought of you as the devil's own.

Reagan also didn’t do anything about the AIDS crisis. It was treated as a gay disease and some even considered it punishment.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

So awful that millions of poor children, especially urban minority children, never knew their dads cause they got caught with a small amount of drugs and immediately sent upstate. Thanks Ronald Reagan, this is why most black and hispanic people thought of you as the devil's own.

Reagan also didn’t do anything about the AIDS crisis. It was treated as a gay disease and some even considered it punishment.

Reminds me of Rush Limbaugh celebrating the death of people from HIV. Then he died and I still held my tongue for a week.

[Kilobugya]

Reagan also didn’t do anything about the AIDS crisis. It was treated as a gay disease and some even considered it punishment.

And there is Iran-Contragate... Reagan actually sold weapons to an enemy of the USA (which is treason) in order to finance an extreme-right terrorist group that voluntarily targeted civilians and infrastructure. Committing a major crime in order to commit another major crime is a level of evil rarely seen so directly.

[San Lumen]

Reagan also didn’t do anything about the AIDS crisis. It was treated as a gay disease and some even considered it punishment.

And there is Iran-Contragate... Reagan actually sold weapons to an enemy of the USA (which is treason) in order to finance an extreme-right terrorist group that voluntarily targeted civilians and infrastructure. Committing a major crime in order to commit another major crime is a level of evil rarely seen so directly.

There is no evidence Reagan had direct knowledge of the extent of the program.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Reagan also didn’t do anything about the AIDS crisis. It was treated as a gay disease and some even considered it punishment.

And there is Iran-Contragate... Reagan actually sold weapons to an enemy of the USA (which is treason) in order to finance an extreme-right terrorist group that voluntarily targeted civilians and infrastructure. Committing a major crime in order to commit another major crime is a level of evil rarely seen so directly.

Reagan also didn't wanna embargo apartheid south africa. That could partially be due to his hatred of communism and partially due to his hatred of black people.

[Atheris]

And how's the trickle down wealth going?

I mentioned GPS. You countered with one of his slogans.

Democrats in the House signed off on those heinous tax cuts. Clinton oversaw tax increases, but gee golly, with a Republican Congress! Then George Bush, more tax cuts with House on his side but a 50/50 Senate!

What's going on here? It's almost like not everything government does can be pinned on the President!

Trump's third round of crazy, give-to-the-rich tax cuts did however have the support of a completely Republican Congress. There should probably be a lesson there for Democrats. Do not give to a Reagan, what you are not prepared to have taken by a Trump.

Reagan wasn't that bad. Some nasty foreign adventures that no-one should approve. It's hugely unfortunate that he got credit (with some) for what Gorbachev did, but really that's just luck. "Trickle down economics" is just his name for something the US government did, and if Democrats then felt the way you do now, they wouldn't have voted for it.

Mmmmmmgh.

Wrong thread, but it wasn't Gorbachev who killed the USSR. It was the GKChP.

[Vassenor]

And how's the trickle down wealth going?

I mentioned GPS. You countered with one of his slogans.

Democrats in the House signed off on those heinous tax cuts. Clinton oversaw tax increases, but gee golly, with a Republican Congress! Then George Bush, more tax cuts with House on his side but a 50/50 Senate!

What's going on here? It's almost like not everything government does can be pinned on the President!

Trump's third round of crazy, give-to-the-rich tax cuts did however have the support of a completely Republican Congress. There should probably be a lesson there for Democrats. Do not give to a Reagan, what you are not prepared to have taken by a Trump.

Reagan wasn't that bad. Some nasty foreign adventures that no-one should approve. It's hugely unfortunate that he got credit (with some) for what Gorbachev did, but really that's just luck. "Trickle down economics" is just his name for something the US government did, and if Democrats then felt the way you do now, they wouldn't have voted for it.

And I'm asking how his policies were an objective benefit to Americans.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I will go out on a limb and say that before the foolish pursuit of "bipartisanship" there was a culture of political trade. "Give me this thing you hate, and I will give you that thing I hate". If that can be done again, then Biden and McConnell are the moribund elder statesmen to get it done.

I mean sure... should we let GOP elect their own electorate if they give us something?

[Kalaron]

Tbh, I agree there was no fraud, but I think it would have really helped their reputation of not cheating if the DNC hadn't made every effort to cheat their own primary in favor of Biden.
Like, once it becomes obvious that someone is willing to mouth the word "Democracy" while sabotaging any candidate who's not "friendly to DNC interests", it becomes kind of hard to convince people that you aren't cheating after, no matter how many people to wrangle up to say "Yes there was no cheating"

Think of it like playing with a pool shark. He might be an OK guy, and he might be telling the truth when he says he's never played a game of Poker in his life either, but you probably aren't going to trust him about it.

[Vassenor]

And I'm asking how his policies were an objective benefit to Americans.

You're all questions and no answers. I'm not feeling a conversation here.

You talk about his policies being a good thing then run away when pushed about how that turned out in practice.

[Dogmeat]

Tbh, I agree there was no fraud, but I think it would have really helped their reputation of not cheating if the DNC hadn't made every effort to cheat their own primary in favor of Biden.
Like, once it becomes obvious that someone is willing to mouth the word "Democracy" while sabotaging any candidate who's not "friendly to DNC interests", it becomes kind of hard to convince people that you aren't cheating after, no matter how many people to wrangle up to say "Yes there was no cheating"

Think of it like playing with a pool shark. He might be an OK guy, and he might be telling the truth when he says he's never played a game of Poker in his life either, but you probably aren't going to trust him about it.

This is dumb. Primaries are under no obligation to be democratic, and make up their own rules. The party can put forward literally any candidate they want, and it's nobody's choice but theirs. If they involve other people in the decision making at all, that's purely their choice.

Nothing at all like a national election.

[Kilobugya]

Tbh, I agree there was no fraud, but I think it would have really helped their reputation of not cheating if the DNC hadn't made every effort to cheat their own primary in favor of Biden.
Like, once it becomes obvious that someone is willing to mouth the word "Democracy" while sabotaging any candidate who's not "friendly to DNC interests", it becomes kind of hard to convince people that you aren't cheating after, no matter how many people to wrangle up to say "Yes there was no cheating"

They didn't commit fraud in favor of Biden during the primaries either. They weren't fair, sure, like in 2016 in favor of Clinton against Sanders, but there is a huge difference between being unfair in "soft" ways and actually committing a fraud (tempering with ballots, ...).

[The Archregimancy]

And I'm asking how his policies were an objective benefit to Americans.

You're all questions and no answers. I'm not feeling a conversation here.

I wouldn't let it worry you. You're new here; you'll soon discover that attempting a 'debate' with Vassenor is a bit like trying to eat soup with a fork; and usually about as productive.

[Kalaron]

Tbh, I agree there was no fraud, but I think it would have really helped their reputation of not cheating if the DNC hadn't made every effort to cheat their own primary in favor of Biden.
Like, once it becomes obvious that someone is willing to mouth the word "Democracy" while sabotaging any candidate who's not "friendly to DNC interests", it becomes kind of hard to convince people that you aren't cheating after, no matter how many people to wrangle up to say "Yes there was no cheating"

Think of it like playing with a pool shark. He might be an OK guy, and he might be telling the truth when he says he's never played a game of Poker in his life either, but you probably aren't going to trust him about it.

This is dumb. Primaries are under no obligation to be democratic, and make up their own rules. The party can put forward literally any candidate they want, and it's nobody's choice but theirs. If they involve other people in the decision making at all, that's purely their choice.

Nothing at all like a national election.

Lmao
You're right, there. There's no legal obligation for them to be democratic.
That definitely makes it better that they've twice misrepresented the Primary as democratic, and cheated to override the "democratic" part of the system.
Hey, want to guess why people hate those who know how to game systems legally? Or why duplicity makes someone less "trustworthy" over time?

[Kalaron]

Tbh, I agree there was no fraud, but I think it would have really helped their reputation of not cheating if the DNC hadn't made every effort to cheat their own primary in favor of Biden.
Like, once it becomes obvious that someone is willing to mouth the word "Democracy" while sabotaging any candidate who's not "friendly to DNC interests", it becomes kind of hard to convince people that you aren't cheating after, no matter how many people to wrangle up to say "Yes there was no cheating"

They didn't commit fraud in favor of Biden during the primaries either. They weren't fair, sure, like in 2016 in favor of Clinton against Sanders, but there is a huge difference between being unfair in "soft" ways and actually committing a fraud (tempering with ballots, ...).

Fair enough, but the moral difference between the extent of the actions isn't really important for what I was saying. It would have really helped their look if they didn't trip into winning via cheating in their own democratic primary, just to turn around and say that Trump was the one who didn't care about democracy.
The factual difference between the two actions is ameliorated by the fact that they gave a lot of emotive fuel to the Republicans to doubt them, because the systems they used to shore Biden up (The Media, for instance) become more suspect to someone who doesn't fully trust the Democrat leadership afterwards.

[Ifreann]

Tbh, I agree there was no fraud, but I think it would have really helped their reputation of not cheating if the DNC hadn't made every effort to cheat their own primary in favor of Biden.
Like, once it becomes obvious that someone is willing to mouth the word "Democracy" while sabotaging any candidate who's not "friendly to DNC interests", it becomes kind of hard to convince people that you aren't cheating after, no matter how many people to wrangle up to say "Yes there was no cheating"

Think of it like playing with a pool shark. He might be an OK guy, and he might be telling the truth when he says he's never played a game of Poker in his life either, but you probably aren't going to trust him about it.

This is dumb. Primaries are under no obligation to be democratic, and make up their own rules. The party can put forward literally any candidate they want, and it's nobody's choice but theirs. If they involve other people in the decision making at all, that's purely their choice.

Nothing at all like a national election.

It does somewhat undermine claims that the Democrats value democracy if their ostensibly democratic internal elections are set up in such a way as to allow important party officials to decide the result.