France Bans Hijabs for Under 18s

[Islamic Holy Sites]

I think it's wrong to assume that Muslims will bring hijabs. As far as I know, hijabs are very secular.

Emphasis mine. They're not. For instance, the cultural debate between Nasserites and the predecessors of the Muslim Brotherhood on the subject had the secularists explicitly discouraging Egyptian women from wearing even the hijab whereas the Muslim Brotherhood, up until today, has been supportive of encouraging women to wear the hijab. Nobody who isn't influenced by the Saudis wants women in Egypt to wear a niqab. In fact, the niqab and burqa are seen as broadly inappropriate attire for women in much of the Dar as-Salaam, where the chador and hijab tend to be preferred.

Burka,Niqab and Chador they need to be banned.The old grandmother would also wear a square scarf on her head like hijabs .If I can see your face, how much difference is there between a hijabs and a hat?We should pay more attention to whether the religious doctrinal requirements are harmful to women's rights and interests,does it achieve gender equality.

I would argue that Islam, like most religions, has no intrinsic interest in the promotion of gender equality and that twisting Islam into being about gender equality first and foremost is dishonest at best and blasphemous at worst. That's not to say Islam doesn't, on occasion, do nice things for women and have some conception of fairness. But religion is definitely not about being progressive and/or liberal on the whole, and it really shouldn't be. Religions are, in many cases, about our relationship with G-d or upholding Dharma or something along those lines.

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

[Insaanistan]

I think it's wrong to assume that Muslims will bring hijabs. As far as I know, hijabs are very secular.

Emphasis mine. They're not. For instance, the cultural debate between Nasserites and the predecessors of the Muslim Brotherhood on the subject had the secularists explicitly discouraging Egyptian women from wearing even the hijab whereas the Muslim Brotherhood, up until today, has been supportive of encouraging women to wear the hijab. Nobody who isn't influenced by the Saudis wants women in Egypt to wear a niqab. In fact, the niqab and burqa are seen as broadly inappropriate attire for women in much of the Dar as-Salaam, where the chador and hijab tend to be preferred.

Burka,Niqab and Chador they need to be banned.The old grandmother would also wear a square scarf on her head like hijabs .If I can see your face, how much difference is there between a hijabs and a hat?We should pay more attention to whether the religious doctrinal requirements are harmful to women's rights and interests,does it achieve gender equality.

I would argue that Islam, like most religions, has no intrinsic interest in the promotion of gender equality and that twisting Islam into being about gender equality first and foremost is dishonest at best and blasphemous at worst. That's not to say Islam doesn't, on occasion, do nice things for women and have some conception of fairness. But religion is definitely not about being progressive and/or liberal on the whole, and it really shouldn't be. Religions are, in many cases, about our relationship with G-d or upholding Dharma or something along those lines.

Actually, Islam from about the start was about improving conditions for women. One of the main problems the pagans had with Islam was one of its first revelations was a condemnation of burying newborn girls alive (a really fricked up practice the Arabs did all the time). There are other verses saying people who are ashamed of having daughters or see them as lesser are people who are lost and misguided. Verse 195 of Chapter 3 (Surah al-Imran) actually explicitly says that men and women are equal.

However, it is not incorrect to say that that is not the main point of Islam.

[Fahran]

It's a piece of clothing. It's not like it's an irreversible surgery or something. France needs to chill the fuck out.

With the order they receive from the Vatican, they forbid the hijab, they say they are against pronography, but they do not refrain from secretly liking the Instagram female models. Right-wing religious nationalism creates enemies, secularism provides freedom.

Memri TV, give Hakinda back his NS account right this minute!

[Philjia]

Emphasis mine. They're not. For instance, the cultural debate between Nasserites and the predecessors of the Muslim Brotherhood on the subject had the secularists explicitly discouraging Egyptian women from wearing even the hijab whereas the Muslim Brotherhood, up until today, has been supportive of encouraging women to wear the hijab. Nobody who isn't influenced by the Saudis wants women in Egypt to wear a niqab. In fact, the niqab and burqa are seen as broadly inappropriate attire for women in much of the Dar as-Salaam, where the chador and hijab tend to be preferred.


I would argue that Islam, like most religions, has no intrinsic interest in the promotion of gender equality and that twisting Islam into being about gender equality first and foremost is dishonest at best and blasphemous at worst. That's not to say Islam doesn't, on occasion, do nice things for women and have some conception of fairness. But religion is definitely not about being progressive and/or liberal on the whole, and it really shouldn't be. Religions are, in many cases, about our relationship with G-d or upholding Dharma or something along those lines.

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

Only in heterodox, reformist, and nonconformist sects, as liberal readings of the texts are required to circumvent explicit sexism such as that displayed in, say, surah 2:282.

[Fahran]

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

I don't think the hijab is an altogether egalitarian social phenomenon with respect to gender, friendo, especially with how it gets talked about in many Muslim circles.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

Only in heterodox, reformist, and nonconformist sects, as liberal readings of the texts are required to circumvent explicit sexism such as that displayed in, say, surah 2:282.

What's wrong with it?

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

I don't think the hijab is an altogether egalitarian social phenomenon with respect to gender, friendo, especially with how it gets talked about in many Muslim circles.

Well, how does it get talked about? Most people actually want to wear the hijab.

[Nouveau Yathrib]

As I said in another thread, the Senate is mostly a club of 50+ rich white men. That they start saying to teenage colored girls what they should and shouldn't wear is oppressive, and doing that in the name of "laïcité" or "la République" is disgusting. But they do that for a single purpose: to move the public debate on questions of Islam and immigration, where the right feel they can attract votes, instead of questions of economics, healthcare, education, social welfare where their proposals are vastly rejected by voters.

What is the partisan composition of the Senate?

I dunno know about the last bit. Islamophobia is at record highs in France. I hope it doesn’t pass, but I don’t think it won’t.

I agree with you that islamophobia is at very preoccupying level in France. And other forms of xenophobia too (racism against Black people or gypsies, antisemitism, LGBTphobia, ...). But what will determine if the law will pass or not is more subtle political calculus from LREM (Macron's party) regarding the 2022 election, where they hope to face Marine Le Pen but yet be seen as centrist enough to actually defeat her. It's very sad, indeed, to use teenaged girls as mere pawns for political tactics, but that's what Macron has been doing since the beginning - he doesn't personally cares one way or another about them.

This somewhat reminds me of how Biden (wanted to) camapaign(ed) against Trump in last year’s election. Biden’s entire case for being the Dem nominee was that he was the only one who could beat 45 in the general election.

[Insaanistan]

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

Only in heterodox, reformist, and nonconformist sects, as liberal readings of the texts are required to circumvent explicit sexism such as that displayed in, say, surah 2:282.

Ugggghhh. This again?
Let me explain:
Firstly, this verse is talking only about witnessing debt contracts, not giving testimony in general. It is in reference to the fact that a woman might have a pregnancy/delivery between the signing of the debt contract and the court testimony in general. Delivery and pregnancy are known to cause a great deal of forgetfulness, a phenomenon that been concluded by several modern non-Muslim scientific studies. The second woman is called for solely so help the first one recall key details that pretty freaking important in a court. We see in other things requiring testimony that one woman is sufficient, and many scholars hold and have long held that even in the case of debt contracts, so long as the woman did not go through pregnancy or delivery between the signing of the contract and the court testimony ONE FEMALE WITNESS IS SUFFICIENT.

Please, educate yourself on the context.

[Fahran]

Actually, Islam from about the start was about improving conditions for women. One of the main problems the pagans had with Islam was one of its first revelations was a condemnation of burying newborn girls alive (a really fricked up practice the Arabs did all the time). There are other verses saying people who are ashamed of having daughters or see them as lesser are people who are lost and misguided. Verse 195 of Chapter 3 (Surah al-Imran) actually explicitly says that men and women are equal.

However, it is not incorrect to say that that is not the main point of Islam.

So their L-rd responded to their prayers (and said): “Never will I allow to be lost the work of a worker of you, whether male or female, you are of one another”; they, therefore, who emigrated, and were driven out of their homes, and suffered harm in My Way, and fought and were killed, assuredly, I will cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter Heavens beneath which the rivers flow; a Reward from All-h; and All-h is with Him the Best of rewards.

Would you say that this is an accurate translation? Because, if so, I think interpreting this as supporting gender equality as a matter of social policy is a bit of a stretch and I wouldn't read this verse as doing so. I have a pretty similar reaction to attempts to wrangle progressive feminism from Judaism. That's not to say that Islam and Judaism don't do anything whatsoever for women or that the conception that religion treats women badly by necessity is true. I don't believe that.

I tend to view my religion as not mandating gender equality, but, at the same time, not invariably forbidding it either. And that's, broadly, how I tend to view other Abrahamic faiths as well since, as you agreed, equality isn't the principal point of these religions.

I will assert, however, that modesty laws in both Islam and Judaism often serve to regulate women to a greater extent than men and place the onus on us for men being horny on main when, really, these religions should bonk men and send them to horny jail.

[Insaanistan]

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

I don't think the hijab is an altogether egalitarian social phenomenon with respect to gender, friendo, especially with how it gets talked about in many Muslim circles.

I contend the way it’s spoken about by many Muslims (especially men) is often sexist.
However, hijab itself is a concept, not a headscarf.
A concept the Qur’ân actually tells men to uphold before it tells women to.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Emphasis mine. They're not. For instance, the cultural debate between Nasserites and the predecessors of the Muslim Brotherhood on the subject had the secularists explicitly discouraging Egyptian women from wearing even the hijab whereas the Muslim Brotherhood, up until today, has been supportive of encouraging women to wear the hijab. Nobody who isn't influenced by the Saudis wants women in Egypt to wear a niqab. In fact, the niqab and burqa are seen as broadly inappropriate attire for women in much of the Dar as-Salaam, where the chador and hijab tend to be preferred.


I would argue that Islam, like most religions, has no intrinsic interest in the promotion of gender equality and that twisting Islam into being about gender equality first and foremost is dishonest at best and blasphemous at worst. That's not to say Islam doesn't, on occasion, do nice things for women and have some conception of fairness. But religion is definitely not about being progressive and/or liberal on the whole, and it really shouldn't be. Religions are, in many cases, about our relationship with G-d or upholding Dharma or something along those lines.

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

I guess the religion of Islam does not know about this.Islam is a sexist and homophobic religion. However, even if this is the case, banning the Hijabs, which does not disturb the social order, is a chain to freedom.

[Insaanistan]

Actually, Islam from about the start was about improving conditions for women. One of the main problems the pagans had with Islam was one of its first revelations was a condemnation of burying newborn girls alive (a really fricked up practice the Arabs did all the time). There are other verses saying people who are ashamed of having daughters or see them as lesser are people who are lost and misguided. Verse 195 of Chapter 3 (Surah al-Imran) actually explicitly says that men and women are equal.

However, it is not incorrect to say that that is not the main point of Islam.

So their L-rd responded to their prayers (and said): “Never will I allow to be lost the work of a worker of you, whether male or female, you are of one another”; they, therefore, who emigrated, and were driven out of their homes, and suffered harm in My Way, and fought and were killed, assuredly, I will cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter Heavens beneath which the rivers flow; a Reward from All-h; and All-h is with Him the Best of rewards.

Would you say that this is an accurate translation? Because, if so, I think interpreting this as supporting gender equality as a matter of social policy is a bit of a stretch and I wouldn't read this verse as doing so. I have a pretty similar reaction to attempts to wrangle progressive feminism from Judaism. That's not to say that Islam and Judaism don't do anything whatsoever for women or that the conception that religion treats women badly by necessity is true. I don't believe that.

I tend to view my religion as not mandating gender equality, but, at the same time, not invariably forbidding it either. And that's, broadly, how I tend to view other Abrahamic faiths as well since, as you agreed, equality isn't the principal point of these religions.

That is one translation, but here’s another that was more what I was referring to:

Their Lord responded to them: ‘I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams.’ Such is the reward from Allah. Allah possesses the ultimate reward.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Gender equality is upheld in Islam though

I guess the religion of Islam does not know about this.Islam is a sexist and homophobic religion. However, even if this is the case, banning the Hijabs, which does not disturb the social order, is a chain to freedom.

So, you just say stuff without giving the least evidence. A great way to make others believe you, right?

[Salus Maior]

Ooooohhhh, that.

Considering most political/public figures don't actually run their own social media pages it was probably some dumb intern that did that.

Don't you think the Pope is a secret fantasy world like typical religious nationalists who use religion and restrict people's freedom. You cannot see the problem here, the problem is not the headscarf or the pope's liking of the female model, the main problem is that Christian radicals attack Muslims, can you see the hypocrisy here. Also my personal opinion is please don't use the word dumb for people who like female bodies.

In this case it's right-wing secularists attacking Muslims' rights.

I'm calling the choice to "like" something inappropriate on an official account dumb, not people being attracted to women.

[Insaanistan]

Actually, Islam from about the start was about improving conditions for women. One of the main problems the pagans had with Islam was one of its first revelations was a condemnation of burying newborn girls alive (a really fricked up practice the Arabs did all the time). There are other verses saying people who are ashamed of having daughters or see them as lesser are people who are lost and misguided. Verse 195 of Chapter 3 (Surah al-Imran) actually explicitly says that men and women are equal.

However, it is not incorrect to say that that is not the main point of Islam.

So their L-rd responded to their prayers (and said): “Never will I allow to be lost the work of a worker of you, whether male or female, you are of one another”; they, therefore, who emigrated, and were driven out of their homes, and suffered harm in My Way, and fought and were killed, assuredly, I will cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter Heavens beneath which the rivers flow; a Reward from All-h; and All-h is with Him the Best of rewards.

Would you say that this is an accurate translation? Because, if so, I think interpreting this as supporting gender equality as a matter of social policy is a bit of a stretch and I wouldn't read this verse as doing so. I have a pretty similar reaction to attempts to wrangle progressive feminism from Judaism. That's not to say that Islam and Judaism don't do anything whatsoever for women or that the conception that religion treats women badly by necessity is true. I don't believe that.

I tend to view my religion as not mandating gender equality, but, at the same time, not invariably forbidding it either. And that's, broadly, how I tend to view other Abrahamic faiths as well since, as you agreed, equality isn't the principal point of these religions.

I will assert, however, that modesty laws in both Islam and Judaism often serve to regulate women to a greater extent than men and place the onus on us for men being horny on main when, really, these religions should bonk men and send them to horny jail.

The Prophet of God (pbuh) was walking with another man when a rather scantily clothed woman walked by. The man the Prophet (pbuh) was with stared at the woman. Noticing this, the Prophet (pbuh) used his hand to cover the man’s eyes.

[Fahran]

A concept the Qur’ân actually tells men to uphold before it tells women to.

I actually do agree on this point, and I value modesty in both men and women. My issue is more with how that's been interpreted and implemented on the whole, and I'm not certain we can distance the beliefs and practices of believers from the religion itself. Those things are often bound together, at least until we, as believers, step into the religion and start calling people out. That's not my battle to fight with regard to Christianity or Islam though since I do not belong to those religions. I'll just sit on the sidelines and cheerlead for that Absolute Chad the Lion of Amman the Rightful Caliph and Amir al-Muminin the Falcon of Quraysh Abdullah II.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

A concept the Qur’ân actually tells men to uphold before it tells women to.

I actually do agree on this point, and I value modesty in both men and women. My issue is more with how that's been interpreted and implemented on the whole, and I'm not certain we can distance the beliefs and practices of believers from the religion itself. Those things are often bound together, at least until we, as believers, step into the religion and start calling people out. That's not my battle to fight with regard to Christianity or Islam though since I do not belong to those religions. I'll just sit on the sidelines and cheerlead for that Absolute Chad the Lion of Amman the Rightful Caliph and Amir al-Muminin the Falcon of Quraysh Abdullah II.

Well, if people don't implement it well it's not Islam, is it?

[Fahran]

That is one translation, but here’s another that was more what I was referring to:

Their Lord responded to them: ‘I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams.’ Such is the reward from Allah. Allah possesses the ultimate reward.

Even in this context, it sounds more like G-d views men and women as equals in terms of moral agency, the persecution they suffer, and the reward that will be given for faith than that G-d is mandating gender equality as a matter of political and social policy. While one can infer that perhaps society ought to reflect that G-d values women by allowing us to drive and not forcing us to wear niqabs, it's not an automatic assumption one can make. I wouldn't even call it an inference.

[Genivaria]

Would you say that this is an accurate translation? Because, if so, I think interpreting this as supporting gender equality as a matter of social policy is a bit of a stretch and I wouldn't read this verse as doing so. I have a pretty similar reaction to attempts to wrangle progressive feminism from Judaism. That's not to say that Islam and Judaism don't do anything whatsoever for women or that the conception that religion treats women badly by necessity is true. I don't believe that.

I tend to view my religion as not mandating gender equality, but, at the same time, not invariably forbidding it either. And that's, broadly, how I tend to view other Abrahamic faiths as well since, as you agreed, equality isn't the principal point of these religions.

That is one translation, but here’s another that was more what I was referring to:

Their Lord responded to them: ‘I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams.’ Such is the reward from Allah. Allah possesses the ultimate reward.

It may say that (and of course I know little to nothing about Islamic texts) this could easily be a case of saying one thing in broad terms and then contradicting that thing in specific cases.
For example the Bible generally says to love your neighbor as you love yourself, it also mentions killing heathens and enslaving foreigners, actions that specifically NOT loving.

It is perhaps fair to say that Islam was 'fair for it's time' (which I do think is fair to claim with for example Jizya being superior to outright forced conversion or expulsion) but to say that 'Islam is feminist' or 'Islam supports gender equality' in a modern context is a far more dubious claim.

[Fahran]

The Prophet of God (pbuh) was walking with another man when a rather scantily clothed woman walked by. The man the Prophet (pbuh) was with stared at the woman. Noticing this, the Prophet (pbuh) used his hand to cover the man’s eyes.

Not quite a bonk, but super based nonetheless.

[Kilobugya]

What is the partisan composition of the Senate?

The Senate is elected indirectly, mostly by mayors and municipal councilors, and therefore it is heavily biased toward rural, conservative, France. On 348 seats, it has 148 of LR (traditional conservative party) and 55 of various "center-rights" senators that vote nearly always with LR, together they have absolutely majority. The left has 107 senators (65 social-democrats, 15 communists, 15 center-left and 12 greens) and Macron's party LREM only has 23 senators, since it's mostly a one-man party that doesn't have many local relays.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

That is one translation, but here’s another that was more what I was referring to:

Even in this context, it sounds more like G-d views men and women as equals in terms of moral agency, the persecution they suffer, and the reward that will be given for faith than that G-d is mandating gender equality as a matter of political and social policy. While one can infer that perhaps society ought to reflect that G-d values women by allowing us to drive and not forcing us to wear niqabs, it's not an automatic assumption one can make. I wouldn't even call it an inference.

Why not? It clearly says- You are equal to each other. It doesn't say- You are equal to each other but only spiritually.

[Genivaria]

Even in this context, it sounds more like G-d views men and women as equals in terms of moral agency, the persecution they suffer, and the reward that will be given for faith than that G-d is mandating gender equality as a matter of political and social policy. While one can infer that perhaps society ought to reflect that G-d values women by allowing us to drive and not forcing us to wear niqabs, it's not an automatic assumption one can make. I wouldn't even call it an inference.

Why not? It clearly says- You are equal to each other. It doesn't say- You are equal to each other but only spiritually.

The bloody Cathars were hiding amongst the Muslims all along, alert the Pope!

[Salus Maior]

Why not? It clearly says- You are equal to each other. It doesn't say- You are equal to each other but only spiritually.

The bloody Cathars were hiding amongst the Muslims all along, alert the Pope!

Just a reminder that CK2 is not a valid historical source for the Cathars ;P