France Bans Hijabs for Under 18s

[United Engiresco]

And here I thought my home country of the United States was stupid...

I'm disappointed in France... They should do better than this.

[Insaanistan]

I find it concerning you’re cool with little kids drinking a teratogen. That’s seriously gonna frick them up, dude.

Few "little kids" drink alcohol, and those who do are those living in very dysfunctional households in which alcohol isn't the worst of their problems.

And having a 16 years old drink a sip of champagne for their birthday or a glass of cider every now and then isn't much a big deal, not something that deserve the state to intervene in people's life.

It is true that some teenagers drink unreasonable quantities of alcohol, and that's very harmful to them. But they usually do it hiding from their parents, they would hide from the state the same way, a law banning it wouldn't change much. People under 18 can't buy alcohol, there isn't much more the state can do. Apart perhaps better enforcement of that ban to the sell of alcohol to minors, because it's not that well enforced, but that's not a matter of law making, but of law enforcement.

That’s basically part of where American Prohibition failed: sale and manufacture of alcohol was illegal. Consuming it wasn’t.

[Kilobugya]

The different between France and your examples is that many Muslims (mostly post-Colonial immigrants) in France see themselves as Muslims first, French second - if French at all.

Perhaps if instead of constantly stigmatizing them, scapegoating them, packing them in poor suburbs with subpar public services, discriminating them in how they can access jobs and houses, the police harassing and brutalizing them, ... we would start treating them as brothers and sisters and welcome them as they are, they would feel more proud to be French ?

Constant hostility and discrimination is how you drive them into hostility and "separatism".

[Great Brytain and Ireland]

'British anywhere else in the world who don't want to renounce their culture should pack their bags and go to Britain.'

What makes you think that those of us who dislike immigration to European countries from elsewhere in the world wouldn't endorse this statement? I have a very low opinion of British people who move abroad permanently and then just live in little enclaves only interacting with other expats.

If I moved to, say, Germany then I fully expect myself to Germanise as much as possible. One thing I hate about the U.K. is gateway communities, especially places like Bradford where the host culture is all but erased in areas and people refuse to assimilate, instead cementing themselves as a settler community.

[Vassenor]

What makes you think that those of us who dislike immigration to European countries from elsewhere in the world wouldn't endorse this statement? I have a very low opinion of British people who move abroad permanently and then just live in little enclaves only interacting with other expats.

If I moved to, say, Germany then I fully expect myself to Germanise as much as possible. One thing I hate about the U.K. is gateway communities, especially places like Bradford where the host culture is all but erased in areas and people refuse to assimilate, instead cementing themselves as a settler community.

Ironically in the UK the Muslim community puts a greater importance on British Identity than the population at large does.

[Kilobugya]

That’s basically part of where American Prohibition failed: sale and manufacture of alcohol was illegal. Consuming it wasn’t.

The war on drugs is a complete and utter failure, even when every stage from manufacturing to sale to consuming is illegal. It just leads to massive black markets and cartels, and countless lives broken by jail sentence for having a few grams of the wrong plant on you. And with the very heavy cultural role of wines in French culture, there is absolutely no way a ban on all alcohols could even remotely work here.

And I say that as someone who doesn't drink any alcohol or use any drug (apart from tea/coffee, which is a very very mild one).

[Great Brytain and Ireland]

The different between France and your examples is that many Muslims (mostly post-Colonial immigrants) in France see themselves as Muslims first, French second - if French at all.

Perhaps if instead of constantly stigmatizing them, scapegoating them, packing them in poor suburbs with subpar public services, discriminating them in how they can access jobs and houses, the police harassing and brutalizing them, ... we would start treating them as brothers and sisters and welcome them as they are, they would feel more proud to be French ?

Constant hostility and discrimination is how you drive them into hostility and "separatism".

I am against unnecessary stigmatisation, scapegoating, and poor socioeconomic conditions, and poor treatment by law enforcement being laid at the feet of people, regardless of their other characteristics. However, they must Gallicise whether they want to or not. They should think of themselves as Frenchmen who happen to be Muslim (prioritising Frenchness), rather than Muslims who happen to be French (prioritising religious orthodoxy and adherence). Like how the Jews assimilated into German society, so much the Muslims assimilate into French society or beyond.

[Nakena]

I doubt offering any sort of "religious alternative" would have worked either. People don't just lose their religion because their government told them to. Otherwise China wouldn't be doing their little Uyghur holocaust right now.

The CCP isn't really offering anything but complete and utter cruel nastyness. That is really bad.

Unless you want to completely alienate the religious and create resentment there has to be some kind of freedom of practice, and you especially don't want to lump in the practicing liberal and moderate Muslims (who both tend to wear Hijab and do other religious practices) with the conservatives and fundies. Which putting a blanket ban and crackdown does.

No that is projecting modern liberal western tropes and concepts upon the situation in early turkish republic. Atatürk did to forge a new nation out of the remains of the Ottoman Empire, which was specifically divided amongst the millet system. So amongst other things he had to slowly phase out islam as the defining element of turkhood and install a new nationalism. But of course there were shortcommings and other problems with this approach. Its a completly different story than whats currently happening in Xinjiang.

But isn't the french state literally paying the priest of catholic churches and also maintains their buildings etc? Or I am wrong.

In most of France, the state doesn't apply at all the priests. For the buildings, it depends when there were built and their status. Some are owned and upkept by the State, as historical monuments, but then they must be made available to other religions if needed.

You might be referring to Concordat, which was the law in France from Napoleon until the "laïcité" law of 1905, and under which priests were paid by the state. Since Alsace-Lorraine (a small part in the East of France) was part of Germany from 1870 to 1919, it wasn't french when laïcité was voted, and therefore it still operates under the Concordat. But that's more of an historical "bug". And the political parties that want the 1905 law to apply everywhere (PCF, LFI) are actually the ones opposing the anti-Muslim laws. While those supporting the anti-Muslim laws are the ones who want to keep Alsace-Moselle special status. Showing once again it never was about secularism.

Ah, my bad. I may be mixing up things here a little. Does the 1905 law also affect Islam or is it just about catholicism?

Well they had their reasons to do it. Specifically to keep political islam at bay and under the boot. One of many measures aimed at that.

Yeah, that may have been the idea in Turkey, but it turned more into “let’s slowly eliminate Islam”.

That was Atatürks original idea.

This is Islam, an absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, a rotting corpse which poisons our lives.

[Great Brytain and Ireland]

Then the Ummah will welcome them elsewhere. If you’re unwilling to assimilate into a host culture, I fully expect you to be ready to pack your bags because it’s obvious to me you have no intention of becoming wholly part of that society.

It’s removing greater distinctions between Muslims and native French folk, the People who’re building parallel societies are the people unwilling to embrace Frenchness.

Why do you or anyone else get to decide who is French and who is not, hm?

I am a Briton, so I don’t go around cherrypicking every last thing regarding that. I merely support the French enforcing their own culture where they wish.

[Vassenor]

Perhaps if instead of constantly stigmatizing them, scapegoating them, packing them in poor suburbs with subpar public services, discriminating them in how they can access jobs and houses, the police harassing and brutalizing them, ... we would start treating them as brothers and sisters and welcome them as they are, they would feel more proud to be French ?

Constant hostility and discrimination is how you drive them into hostility and "separatism".

I am against unnecessary stigmatisation, scapegoating, and poor socioeconomic conditions, and poor treatment by law enforcement being laid at the feet of people, regardless of their other characteristics. However, they must Gallicise whether they want to or not. They should think of themselves as Frenchmen who happen to be Muslim (prioritising Frenchness), rather than Muslims who happen to be French (prioritising religious orthodoxy and adherence). Like how the Jews assimilated into German society, so much the Muslims assimilate into French society or beyond.

...I'm not sure using one of the largest genocides in history to make your point is a good idea.

[Great Brytain and Ireland]

Then the Ummah will welcome them elsewhere. If you’re unwilling to assimilate into a host culture, I fully expect you to be ready to pack your bags because it’s obvious to me you have no intention of becoming wholly part of that society.

It’s removing greater distinctions between Muslims and native French folk, the People who’re building parallel societies are the people unwilling to embrace Frenchness.

'British anywhere else in the world who don't want to renounce their culture should pack their bags and go to Britain.'

You may be surprised but I agree with this position.

[Salus Maior]

No that is projecting modern liberal western tropes and concepts upon the situation in early turkish republic. Atatürk did to forge a new nation out of the remains of the Ottoman Empire, which was specifically divided amongst the millet system. So amongst other things he had to slowly phase out islam as the defining element of turkhood and install a new nationalism. But of course there were shortcommings and other problems with this approach. Its a completly different story than whats currently happening in Xinjiang.


That was Atatürks original idea.

This is Islam, an absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, a rotting corpse which poisons our lives.

Yes, that tends to be what Fascists do.

That quote is remarkably similar to what a lot of Alt-Right thinkers like Spencer say about Christianity.

[Great Brytain and Ireland]

I am against unnecessary stigmatisation, scapegoating, and poor socioeconomic conditions, and poor treatment by law enforcement being laid at the feet of people, regardless of their other characteristics. However, they must Gallicise whether they want to or not. They should think of themselves as Frenchmen who happen to be Muslim (prioritising Frenchness), rather than Muslims who happen to be French (prioritising religious orthodoxy and adherence). Like how the Jews assimilated into German society, so much the Muslims assimilate into French society or beyond.

...I'm not sure using one of the largest genocides in history to make your point is a good idea.

I was referring to the pre-Hitlerite period. German Jews vehemently upheld and celebrated their Germanness AFAIK.

[Insaanistan]

Perhaps if instead of constantly stigmatizing them, scapegoating them, packing them in poor suburbs with subpar public services, discriminating them in how they can access jobs and houses, the police harassing and brutalizing them, ... we would start treating them as brothers and sisters and welcome them as they are, they would feel more proud to be French ?

Constant hostility and discrimination is how you drive them into hostility and "separatism".

I am against unnecessary stigmatisation, scapegoating, and poor socioeconomic conditions, and poor treatment by law enforcement being laid at the feet of people, regardless of their other characteristics. However, they must Gallicise whether they want to or not. They should think of themselves as Frenchmen who happen to be Muslim (prioritising Frenchness), rather than Muslims who happen to be French (prioritising religious orthodoxy and adherence). Like how the Jews assimilated into German society, so much the Muslims assimilate into French society or beyond.

...what?

[Vassenor]

...I'm not sure using one of the largest genocides in history to make your point is a good idea.

I was referring to the pre-Hitlerite period. German Jews vehemently upheld and celebrated their Germanness AFAIK.

While ignoring the way British Muslims do the same thing yet you want them destroyed.

[Insaanistan]

...I'm not sure using one of the largest genocides in history to make your point is a good idea.

I was referring to the pre-Hitlerite period. German Jews vehemently upheld and celebrated their Germanness AFAIK.

To the point many of them stopped being Jews expect in last name. That’s not good.

[Glurponia]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Religion should be done away with through education and rational thought, not actual discrimination like this.

Removing religious influence is a great idea in principle, but this law feels like it's just Christians trying to get rid of the competition.

[Kilobugya]

Ah, my bad. I may be mixing up things here a little. Does the 1905 law also affect Islam or is it just about catholicism?

It doesn't mention any religion in particular. It definitely was "about" catholicism, but the text of the law doesn't explicitly says it.

[Kowani]

It’s just gonna be one of those days isn’t it

[Great Brytain and Ireland]

If I moved to, say, Germany then I fully expect myself to Germanise as much as possible. One thing I hate about the U.K. is gateway communities, especially places like Bradford where the host culture is all but erased in areas and people refuse to assimilate, instead cementing themselves as a settler community.

Ironically in the UK the Muslim community puts a greater importance on British Identity than the population at large does.

That is good to hear, though the numbers of people who think polygamy is acceptable or that wives should obey their husbands needs to drop, same with the strength of religious identity.

I fully accept that natives have trouble being so patriotic, and I believe this needs to be rectified. Same with the poor academic aspirations of native youths.

I was referring to the pre-Hitlerite period. German Jews vehemently upheld and celebrated their Germanness AFAIK.

To the point many of them stopped being Jews expect in last name. That’s not good.

I don’t see any problem with this. Rather it’s something to celebrate.

[Insaanistan]

Perhaps if instead of constantly stigmatizing them, scapegoating them, packing them in poor suburbs with subpar public services, discriminating them in how they can access jobs and houses, the police harassing and brutalizing them, ... we would start treating them as brothers and sisters and welcome them as they are, they would feel more proud to be French ?

Constant hostility and discrimination is how you drive them into hostility and "separatism".

I am against unnecessary stigmatisation, scapegoating, and poor socioeconomic conditions, and poor treatment by law enforcement being laid at the feet of people, regardless of their other characteristics. However, they must Gallicise whether they want to or not. They should think of themselves as Frenchmen who happen to be Muslim (prioritising Frenchness), rather than Muslims who happen to be French (prioritising religious orthodoxy and adherence). Like how the Jews assimilated into German society, so much the Muslims assimilate into French society or beyond.

What is Frenchness?
Drinking wine, eating solely European foods, wearing skirts and doing the no pants dance extra-maritally?
Is that when Muslims will be Western enough for you? When we stop being Muslims?

[Old Tyrannia]

I was referring to the pre-Hitlerite period. German Jews vehemently upheld and celebrated their Germanness AFAIK.

To the point many of them stopped being Jews expect in last name. That’s not good.

Why not?

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Religion should be done away with through education and rational thought, not actual discrimination like this.

Removing religious influence is a great idea in principle, but this law feels like it's just Christians trying to get rid of the competition.

Because Christianity is clearly such a powerful political force in modern France.

[Vassenor]

Ironically in the UK the Muslim community puts a greater importance on British Identity than the population at large does.

That is good to hear, though the numbers of people who think polygamy is acceptable or that wives should obey their husbands needs to drop, same with the strength of religious identity.

I fully accept that natives have trouble being so patriotic, and I believe this needs to be rectified. Same with the poor academic aspirations of native youths.

To the point many of them stopped being Jews expect in last name. That’s not good.

I don’t see any problem with this. Rather it’s something to celebrate.

What makes consensual polygamy bad?

[Insaanistan]

Ironically in the UK the Muslim community puts a greater importance on British Identity than the population at large does.

That is good to hear, though the numbers of people who think polygamy is acceptable or that wives should obey their husbands needs to drop, same with the strength of religious identity.

I fully accept that natives have trouble being so patriotic, and I believe this needs to be rectified. Same with the poor academic aspirations of native youths.

To the point many of them stopped being Jews expect in last name. That’s not good.

I don’t see any problem with this. Rather it’s something to celebrate.

Okay, you just admitted your goal is that stop being who they are. That’s, again, very bad.

[Great Brytain and Ireland]

I was referring to the pre-Hitlerite period. German Jews vehemently upheld and celebrated their Germanness AFAIK.

While ignoring the way British Muslims do the same thing yet you want them destroyed.

The strength of their religious conviction reduced at least and the prioritisation of British national identity, which that report gives me hope for.

I am against unnecessary stigmatisation, scapegoating, and poor socioeconomic conditions, and poor treatment by law enforcement being laid at the feet of people, regardless of their other characteristics. However, they must Gallicise whether they want to or not. They should think of themselves as Frenchmen who happen to be Muslim (prioritising Frenchness), rather than Muslims who happen to be French (prioritising religious orthodoxy and adherence). Like how the Jews assimilated into German society, so much the Muslims assimilate into French society or beyond.

What is Frenchness?
Drinking wine, eating solely European foods, wearing skirts and doing the no pants dance extra-maritally?
Is that when Muslims will be Western enough for you? When we stop being Muslims?

When one is more French than Muslim, yes.