2012 US Election: Mitt Romney vs Elon Musk

[Nakena]

Because he annoys people with their manners. He disturbs their complacency and moral high grounds and yards. Makes perhaps some also mad that he managed to do what nobody else did. So they start attacking him where they can, where they see potential to do so. His business practices are sometimes a bit shady but theres far worse people out there, but they don't have the same popularity or profile. So they aren't attacked. Musk however is.

All the more since NSG is by now a fairly marxist leaning board, and in marxist worldview he is an very evil capitalist by definition.

So combined with the other already existing antipathy, theres your explaination.



Like what.

If your defense of someone amounts to "people are just jealous!" - stop.

I am not defending him. He's a douche. However someone who gets stuff done. Important stuff nobody else does right now.

But the people who attack him are doing so because they are annoyed of his douchebaggery. Not for the moral high ground they claim to be.

[Kilobugya]

I am not defending him. He's a douche. However someone who gets stuff done. Important stuff nobody else does right now.

What "stuff" does he get done ? Military coups against sovereign nations ? Dramatic pollution of the sky with Starlink ? Pet projects that cost billions but are overall useless ? Massive tax evasion ?

And even for that "stuff" he's not actually the one who did them - he hired people to do them. With money he took from exploiting other people.

[Hemip]

Ehm, do you have any idea how much that comment is detached from the general dispositions of millennials and Gen-Z, from observable exchanges on this board, and from the common definitions of marxism?

Nah it fit's 100%. Your post sort of confirms that.

Also, I think that Marx had not observed vulture capitalism in action, as it came into existence about 100 years after Marx had come out of existence.

It's about marxist worldview applied to stuff. Besides i am fairly sure he was familiar with it tbh.

Musk is not loathed because he is a capitalist (every Warren supporter is one too), but because billionaires (like Musk) exemplify the maxim that behind every great fortune, there is a great crime. Dabbling in another sovereign nation's politics just for the sake of some ore is just one example of billionaires' implicit belief that rules are for other people, while they can do what they want "because money talks".

So people are envious of him because he can do stuff they can't? I mean if i had a few billions probably i could also pull of some stuff like in bolivia. and better than musk. and nobody would even notice that it was me.

Ad 1) No it doesn't, and you have a very ideosyncratic method of interpretative reading.

Ad 2) I too am fairly sure that Marx was familiar with the hallmarks of marxist theory. My point is that you aren't.

Ad 3) Jealousy is a pretty lame excuse for critique of someone's actions. Because nobody is justified in their actions even if the jealousy is real. And if the jealousy is only perceived, the spurious accusation merely illustrates the twisted worldview of whoever is the subject of the critique: that nobody should criticise them and they only want to hear praise, and their actions can never be questioned. (Or in your case: that you only want to hear praise of your hero, and not think about his morally defective interactions with various parts of the world. Child labour in Africa could also be laid at his feet...)

[Nakena]

I am not defending him. He's a douche. However someone who gets stuff done. Important stuff nobody else does right now.

What "stuff" does he get done ? Military coups against sovereign nations ? Dramatic pollution of the sky with Starlink ? Pet projects that cost billions but are overall useless ? Massive tax evasion ?

And even for that "stuff" he's not actually the one who did them - he hired people to do them. With money he took from exploiting other people.

The SpaceX Program. Falcon Heavy and now Starship. etc

Thats all.

Almost everything else he did or not is irrelevant in comparisation to that. And yeah ofc he has people for that, but he gets them to get stuff done. If someone else were to do that fine. But apparently there is nobody else. So far.

Ad 1) No it doesn't, and you have a very ideosyncratic method of interpretative reading.

Yeah for me that kind of stuff reads exactly like because I said something that hit the right spot. I know when that happens.

Ad 2) I too am fairly sure that Marx was familiar with the hallmarks of marxist theory. My point is that you aren't.

I dunno most people who ripoff the stuff and throw it around here are either. If that makes you happy.

Ad 3) Jealousy is a pretty lame excuse for critique of someone's actions. Because nobody is justified in their actions even if the jealousy is real. And if the jealousy is only perceived, the spurious accusation merely illustrates the twisted worldview of whoever is the subject of the critique: that nobody should criticise them and they only want to hear praise, and their actions can never be questioned. (Or in your case: that you only want to hear praise of your hero, and not think about his morally defective interactions with various parts of the world. Child labour in Africa could also be laid at his feet...)

No you don't get the bigger context and bigger picture here. Which I described above. His "morally defective interactions" with various parts of the world are of little matter to the things he gets done. I simply don't care about them because he get stuff done. Wouldn he, i wouldn even care about him.

Yes you read me right.

As long as Musk delievers SpaceX rockets and stuff he can do as he pleases otherwise as far as I am concerned. That doesnt means that i necessarily approve or support it. The fact that he's annoying a lot of people on Twitter etc. is a nice little bonus however.

To bring up another historical and even more relevant example; Wernher von Braun was formerly member of the Waffen SS, and did profited from forced labour in nazi germany. Yet without him we wouldn have reached the moon.

It's an excellent trade off after all. You should totally sign it. ;^)

[Parxland]

Uh... I fail to see how Elon aligns with the left at all.

If anything it'd make more sense to literally make Mitt the democratic candidate and Elon the republican one.

But to answer your question: neither, I was too young to vote in 2012

I was thinking in terms of Elon having very environmentalist and futurist views and coming out in 2021 to congratulate Biden etc

Elon is republican. Not all republicans liked trump.

[Tsaivao]

No you don't get the bigger context and bigger picture here. Which I described above. His "morally defective interactions" with various parts of the world are of little matter to the things he gets done. I simply don't care about them because he get stuff done.

"Hey, I don't care if he exploits democratic governments in South America to leech off their natural resources and destroy their nations for personal profit, so long as I get my Tesla I'm happy."

Do you realize how selfish that sounds? There are PLENTY of people who get stuff done who aren't morally reprehensible and negligent narcissists. I don't see how anyone can support this Machiavellian "the ends justify the means" bullshit. Again, Elon isn't the designer of these things, he was a self-taught software developer whose entire life is built on spaghetti code. He's a modern-day Thomas Edison, taking credit for everything he's not responsible for, and deflecting blame away from himself when things go wrong. I don't need to be a "Marxist" to point out that he's a despicable human being.

No you don't get the bigger context and bigger picture here. Which I described above. His "morally defective interactions" with various parts of the world are of little matter to the things he gets done. I simply don't care about them because he get stuff done. Wouldn he, i wouldn even care about him.

By this logic, Bill Gates could enslave the entire child population of China, but it's okay because he's getting it done by making more iPhones? I'm seriously confused by your own logic.

To bring up another historical and even more relevant example; Wernher von Braun was formerly member of the Waffen SS, and did profited from forced labour in nazi germany. Yet without him we wouldn have reached the moon.

(Image)

It's an excellent trade off after all. You should totally sign it. ;^)

(The fact you're empathizing with Black Hat in this comic is humorous)

The difference with von Braun is that he didn't ever deny what he was. His memoirs explained that even after the collapse of Nazi Germany, several of his nationalist ideas got stronger for a unified Germany, but at the same time that Hitler was nothing more than a "pompous fool with a Charlie Chaplin moustache." His relation with the SS was complicated and is still contestable, and what's important is that he believed he needed to try and redeem himself from some of the actions he was either coerced to perform or chose to do as a Nazi.

What is still important though is that he's still disliked because of his affiliation to the SS. Von Braun still has lots of controversy surrounding him, so saying "See, famous science guy was even worse!" isn't even an affect. It's just whataboutism mixed with Godwin's Law, but at the very least, von Braun wasn't a spoiled man-child Tony Stark wannabe.

[Ifreann]

What "stuff" does he get done ? Military coups against sovereign nations ? Dramatic pollution of the sky with Starlink ? Pet projects that cost billions but are overall useless ? Massive tax evasion ?

And even for that "stuff" he's not actually the one who did them - he hired people to do them. With money he took from exploiting other people.

The SpaceX Program. Falcon Heavy and now Starship. etc

Thats all.

Almost everything else he did or not is irrelevant in comparisation to that. And yeah ofc he has people for that, but he gets them to get stuff done. If someone else were to do that fine. But apparently there is nobody else. So far.

There are lots of other people with money. Several even invested in SpaceX as well. Musk tying his personal brand to the company doesn't mean that he's the driving force behind their products.

[Nakena]

"Hey, I don't care if he exploits democratic governments in South America to leech off their natural resources and destroy their nations for personal profit, so long as I get my Tesla I'm happy."

Do you realize how selfish that sounds? There are PLENTY of people who get stuff done who aren't morally reprehensible and negligent narcissists. I don't see how anyone can support this Machiavellian "the ends justify the means" bullshit. Again, Elon isn't the designer of these things, he was a self-taught software developer whose entire life is built on spaghetti code. He's a modern-day Thomas Edison, taking credit for everything he's not responsible for, and deflecting blame away from himself when things go wrong. I don't need to be a "Marxist" to point out that he's a despicable human being.

No it isn't about TESLA cars. I don't care for Tesla beyond generating revenue necessary for bankrolling SpaceX. And if you read my post you knew.

By this logic, Bill Gates could enslave the entire child population of China, but it's okay because he's getting it done by making more iPhones? I'm seriously confused by your own logic.

You didn read my post apparently lol. Missed the point entirely. can't help with that. Btw you didn replied to my TG either.

(The fact you're empathizing with Black Hat in this comic is humorous)

The difference with von Braun is that he didn't ever deny what he was. His memoirs explained that even after the collapse of Nazi Germany, several of his nationalist ideas got stronger for a unified Germany, but at the same time that Hitler was nothing more than a "pompous fool with a Charlie Chaplin moustache." His relation with the SS was complicated and is still contestable, and what's important is that he believed he needed to try and redeem himself from some of the actions he was either coerced to perform or chose to do as a Nazi.

What is still important though is that he's still disliked because of his affiliation to the SS. Von Braun still has lots of controversy surrounding him, so saying "See, famous science guy was even worse!" isn't even an affect. It's just whataboutism mixed with Godwin's Law, but at the very least, von Braun wasn't a spoiled man-child Tony Stark wannabe.

Von Braun did way more for spacelflight than Musk and was overally himself a rocket engineer and what not. I definetively prefer him over Musk.

Again like I said before, the point about Musk is that he gets SpaceX done. Not some Tesla Cars or iPhones or whatever. You for some reason skipped this entirely. But again thats the point and thats how he is being relevant. Spoiled manchild or not, Musk has managed to get enough force to initiate the space X program, and get the falcon heavy done and soon starship BFR. All within about a decade more or less and all something nobody else has managed in the 25 years before. Thanks to SpaceX Starship BFR we will finally have a rocket again like the Saturn V.

[D i p]

SpaceX is a vanity project.
Not sure how vanity makes child labour and anti-democratic interventions all right.

SpaceX is also having the carbon footprint of a behemoth-sized yeti.
So that will be the last of your "Musk is such an ecologically visionary leader" claims, OK?

[Stylan]

I never, ever thought I would say that I support Mitt Romney. But if this was the case and you held a gun to my head... I'm rockin' with Mitt. At least Mitt is a slightly better piece of human garbage than the pure evil Musk is.

[Nakena]

SpaceX is a vanity project. Not sure how vanity makes child labour and anti-democratic interventions all right.

SpaceX is relevant for many reasons. It's not a vanity project.

It's relevant enough that it makes quite some things all-right. Or at least insignificant or negligible in the big picture of things.

SpaceX is also having the carbon footprint of a behemoth-sized yeti.

Irrelevant in the big picture of thing and definetively worth it.

So that will be the last of your "Musk is such an ecologically visionary leader" claims, OK?

Chances are that his Tesla cars will reduce CO2 output somewhat. So it's totally ecologically a thing. ^^

[Tsaivao]

"Hey, I don't care if he exploits democratic governments in South America to leech off their natural resources and destroy their nations for personal profit, so long as I get my Tesla I'm happy."

Do you realize how selfish that sounds? There are PLENTY of people who get stuff done who aren't morally reprehensible and negligent narcissists. I don't see how anyone can support this Machiavellian "the ends justify the means" bullshit. Again, Elon isn't the designer of these things, he was a self-taught software developer whose entire life is built on spaghetti code. He's a modern-day Thomas Edison, taking credit for everything he's not responsible for, and deflecting blame away from himself when things go wrong. I don't need to be a "Marxist" to point out that he's a despicable human being.

No it isn't about TESLA cars. I don't care for Tesla beyond generating revenue necessary for bankrolling SpaceX. And if you read my post you knew.

By this logic, Bill Gates could enslave the entire child population of China, but it's okay because he's getting it done by making more iPhones? I'm seriously confused by your own logic.

You didn read my post apparently lol. Missed the point entirely. can't help with that. Btw you didn replied to my TG either.

(The fact you're empathizing with Black Hat in this comic is humorous)

The difference with von Braun is that he didn't ever deny what he was. His memoirs explained that even after the collapse of Nazi Germany, several of his nationalist ideas got stronger for a unified Germany, but at the same time that Hitler was nothing more than a "pompous fool with a Charlie Chaplin moustache." His relation with the SS was complicated and is still contestable, and what's important is that he believed he needed to try and redeem himself from some of the actions he was either coerced to perform or chose to do as a Nazi.

What is still important though is that he's still disliked because of his affiliation to the SS. Von Braun still has lots of controversy surrounding him, so saying "See, famous science guy was even worse!" isn't even an affect. It's just whataboutism mixed with Godwin's Law, but at the very least, von Braun wasn't a spoiled man-child Tony Stark wannabe.

Von Braun did way more for spacelflight than Musk and was overally himself a rocket engineer and what not. I definetively prefer him over Musk.

Again like I said before, the point about Musk is that he gets SpaceX done. Not some Tesla Cars or iPhones or whatever. You for some reason skipped this entirely. But again thats the point and thats how he is being relevant. Spoiled manchild or not, Musk has managed to get enough force to initiate the space X program, and get the falcon heavy done and soon starship BFR. All within about a decade more or less and all something nobody else has managed in the 25 years before. Thanks to SpaceX Starship BFR we will finally have a rocket again like the Saturn V.

My point doesn't change whether or not it's SpaceX or Dragon or Tesla or Starlink or whatever the hell else he's doing. It doesn't matter, it's all the same. Before accusing me of not reading your post or your non-existent telegram, maybe read into my actual argument instead of dismissing it on the basis of "I don't care about X, Y is more important" when both are being motivated by the same reason Z that I was pointing out in my post. It's humorous how surface-level your rebuttal is that your counterargument is that somehow changing it from Tesla to SpaceX invalidates the point I just made.

[Stylan]

SpaceX is a vanity project. Not sure how vanity makes child labour and anti-democratic interventions all right.

SpaceX is relevant for many reasons. It's not a vanity project.

It's relevant enough that it makes quite some things all-right. Or at least insignificant or negligible in the big picture of things.

SpaceX is also having the carbon footprint of a behemoth-sized yeti.

Irrelevant in the big picture of thing and definetively worth it.

So that will be the last of your "Musk is such an ecologically visionary leader" claims, OK?

Chances are that his Tesla cars will reduce CO2 output somewhat. So it's totally ecologically a thing. ^^

Some half-assed space program makes child labor and coups ok?

[Nakena]

I never, ever thought I would say that I support Mitt Romney. But if this was the case and you held a gun to my head... I'm rockin' with Mitt. At least Mitt is a slightly better piece of human garbage than the pure evil Musk is.

Why is Musk pure evil?

[D i p]

By the way, everyone,
are we aware of any digital fluffing squad that Musk has recently hired?

Nakena, would you know whether he has in some way engaged the help of negotiable netizens' nests?

[Washington Resistance Army]

SpaceX is relevant for many reasons. It's not a vanity project.

It's relevant enough that it makes quite some things all-right. Or at least insignificant or negligible in the big picture of things.



Irrelevant in the big picture of thing and definetively worth it.



Chances are that his Tesla cars will reduce CO2 output somewhat. So it's totally ecologically a thing. ^^

Some half-assed space program makes child labor and coups ok?

I mean, getting off this planet as it collapses and burns might very well be the only future left for us if things go worst case. At that point it's really just a question of if you believe in the ends justifying the means.

[D i p]

And on a different note:

Are we seriously debating whther it is alright for one individual to hold the equivalent of a medium-sized nation's GDP in reserve?

When the kings of yore did that, they invested most of it back into those nations. They just siphoned off some of the wealth, for themselves. Holding all of that in reserve would have been unthinkable.

Billionaires should not exist. It is perfectly right and proper to tax incomes and wealth at 90% beyond some multi-dozens-of-millions amount. Eissenhower did that, and none of the rich were any worse for it.

[Cekovia]

mitt romney, no question. i hate elon musk with a burning passion

[Stylan]

I never, ever thought I would say that I support Mitt Romney. But if this was the case and you held a gun to my head... I'm rockin' with Mitt. At least Mitt is a slightly better piece of human garbage than the pure evil Musk is.

Why is Musk pure evil?

Child labor, his transphobia, his backing of coups for lithium, his union-busting and his whole personality in general.

Some half-assed space program makes child labor and coups ok?

I mean, getting off this planet as it collapses and burns might very well be the only future left for us if things go worst case. At that point it's really just a question of if you believe in the ends justifying the means.

Late stage capitalism dot pee and gee.

[Duvniask]

Some half-assed space program makes child labor and coups ok?

I mean, getting off this planet as it collapses and burns might very well be the only future left for us if things go worst case. At that point it's really just a question of if you believe in the ends justifying the means.

We're most likely not going to have self-sufficient space colonies by the time that happens. Like it or not, we're stuck with the Pale Blue Dot for the time being.

[Ifreann]

Some half-assed space program makes child labor and coups ok?

I mean, getting off this planet as it collapses and burns might very well be the only future left for us if things go worst case. At that point it's really just a question of if you believe in the ends justifying the means.

It would be a mistake to assume that granting Musk or other tech bros leeway to pursue their goals in any way they see fit, morality be damned, will in any way bring us closer to the goal of extraterrestrial colonisation.

[Postauthoritarian America]

Musk would be worse than Trump. Romney is just a tool. I'd emigrate.

How is Musk worse in your view?

Musk is just another narcissistic corporate grifter with an authoritarian streak; he'd be worse than Trump because he is not nearly as stupid.

Some half-assed space program makes child labor and coups ok?

I mean, getting off this planet as it collapses and burns might very well be the only future left for us if things go worst case. At that point it's really just a question of if you believe in the ends justifying the means.

Pro tip: if the rocket you're looking to get off this planet as it collapses and burns says "SpaceX" on the side, don't get on.

[USHALLNOTPASS]

wait isn't this just a win-win for accelerationists