Snow Wildcat?

[The Blaatschapen]

Exactly which village is this, and how is the internet connection?

I want to make cat videos

[Ifreann]

I don’t think anyone really needs to wonder why NSG is the laughingstock of the entire rest of the site

I assume it's because this forum is lousy with fascists.

[Infected Mushroom]

Is it acceptable for my "vampire mayor" character in this hypothetical to look like Morrigan Aensland?

[Picairn]

Eyyyyy a Xero thread that doesn't involve donations!

*reads further*

What... What the fuck?

So now we have gone from Voting v. Donations to a vampire mayor wanting to be a snow wildcat?

NSG often surprises me with how wild it can be.

[Cokoland]

I think my brain just committed suicide.

[Adamede]

Or we could just not fuck around with wild/feral animals. Are cats even native to Europe?

[The Blaatschapen]

Or we could just not fuck around with wild/feral animals. Are cats even native to Europe?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_lynx

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wildcat

Yes.

[The New California Republic]

Or we could just not fuck around with wild/feral animals. Are cats even native to Europe?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_lynx

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wildcat

Yes.

There are supposedly big cats in the UK.

[Xerographica]

Imagine an alien landing on earth before there were any epiphytes and saying, "Look at the trees, nothing is growing on them, therefore nothing will grow on them!"

'if a given organism isn't in a given location there's a reason why it's not there.'

If we're in the Ordovician, that reason can be 'land plants do not have the capability to grow outside the soil'. That inability to grow roots outside of the soil is a barrier to creating and exploiting that epiphyte niche and could be overcome through adaptive radiation.

But we're in the Anthropocene, talking about the reasons why wildcats have not expanded outside of their niche as forest mesopredators. Those reasons include competition and predation in the lowlands and clear areas, and in the alpine a lack of food. Niche expansions only occur when there is a release of one or more of those limiting factors or barriers.

In this case I highly doubt that the absence of alpine prey for wildcats is an unsolvable problem. There are plenty of rodents that live in alpine habitats around the world that could be introduced to the mountain. But the question still remains whether, in this case, adaptive radiation is facilitated or hindered by hybridization.

[Nilokeras]

In this case I highly doubt that the absence of alpine prey for wildcats is an unsolvable problem. There are plenty of rodents that live in alpine habitats around the world that could be introduced to the mountain.

There are already rodents in the European alpine. The problem is that there isn't enough of them to support a population of mesopredators permanently, because there isn't enough primary productivity to support the prey in turn. This is an energetic and climactic limitation imposed by the laws of physics, not biology. Hence why alpine predators tend to be itinerant, like European lynx or golden eagles, which range widely and move seasonally from place to place. Even snow leopards do this - they aren't permanent inhabitants of the high alpine, they move from place to place following the migration of their prey.

But the question still remains whether, in this case, adaptive radiation is facilitated or hindered by hybridization.

Speciation that occurs via the hybridization of two species is hybrid speciation not adaptive radiation. Adaptive radiation is when a single species expands to fill new niches, a la Darwin's finches on the Galapagos, which descended from a single ancestral species.

In this case there is still no support for hybrid speciation leading to 'snow wildcats'. The alpine is an energy poor system where there is not enough productivity to support permanent mesopredator populations. Considering domestic cats are urban specialists and wildcats are forest specialists there would be more impetus for hybrids to exist in either or both niches than to expand into a sink patch that would only bring them cold, hungry death.

[The Holy Therns]

Imagine a town somewhere in Europe. The town is at the base of a big mountain. The town has lots and lots of house cats. Just outside the town and ranging half way up the mountain is a very small population of wildcats (Felis silvestris).

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

You have two options. Use the town's resources to...

A. facilitate hybridization between house cats and wildcats
B. block hybridization between house cats and wildcats

Personally I'd go with the first option. It's true that the wildcats are marginally better adapted to the cold than the house cats, but the population of wildcats is too small to "quickly" colonize and adapt to the mountain's snowy peak. You're immortal but you never know when a vampire hunter is going to visit.

With the first option each year you would maximize the number of cats living in the area. The cats are going to compete for limited resources (ie mice) so there is going to be a serious survival advantage given to the cats that can hunt and survive at higher elevations. Each year the frontier cats are going to be better and better adapted (ie fluffier) to higher elevations. Within a relatively short period, voila! A snow wildcat!

Traditional conservation is about preservation, but this conflicts with nature's fundamental imperative... colonization.

On a somewhat related note, check out Pleistocene Park.

And... why is my greatest desire for there to be a snow wildcat?

...And... why am I a vampire?

[Xerographica]

In this case I highly doubt that the absence of alpine prey for wildcats is an unsolvable problem. There are plenty of rodents that live in alpine habitats around the world that could be introduced to the mountain.

There are already rodents in the European alpine. The problem is that there isn't enough of them to support a population of mesopredators permanently, because there isn't enough primary productivity to support the prey in turn. This is an energetic and climactic limitation imposed by the laws of physics, not biology. Hence why alpine predators tend to be itinerant, like European lynx or golden eagles, which range widely and move seasonally from place to place. Even snow leopards do this - they aren't permanent inhabitants of the high alpine, they move from place to place following the migration of their prey.

So we add arctic hares to the mountain and let the wildcats adjust elevation according to the season.

But the question still remains whether, in this case, adaptive radiation is facilitated or hindered by hybridization.

Speciation that occurs via the hybridization of two species is hybrid speciation not adaptive radiation. Adaptive radiation is when a single species expands to fill new niches, a la Darwin's finches on the Galapagos, which descended from a single ancestral species.

Dendrophylax lindenii is adapted to very humid conditions in Florida and Cuba, while Dendrophylax funalis is adapted to relatively drier conditions in Jamaica. I can grow D. funalis outside here in very dry Southern California. If all the lindenii were magically pollinated with funalis, then what? The result would be a hybrid swarm that could colonize a continuum of humidity levels. Basically, some of the Dendrophylax hybrids would be able to colonize habitats outside the Florida everglades, such as orchards and street trees. The result would be much more rapid adaptive radiation.

Adaptive radiation depends on diversity...the more diversity within a population, the more likely it is that individuals will be able to colonize a different type of habitat.

This is the Youtube video through which I learned about Pleistocene Park... The Plan to Revive the Mammoth Steppe to Fight Climate Change. In the video he talks about whether humans or climate change was responsible for the extinction of animals like the mammoth. He thinks it was humans, and I agree with him. Our ancestors hunted mammoths and cave lions to extinction. If we humans suddenly vanished, then nature would again fill the voids left by mammoths and cave lions. But it would take a relatively long time.

With hybridization we could create hybrid swarms that would quickly fill unoccupied niches. Warmer cats could be crossed with colder cats, smaller cats could be crossed with bigger cats, and so on.

[Nilokeras]

So we add arctic hares to the mountain and let the wildcats adjust elevation according to the season.

There are already European hares present in the landscape. European wildcats still don't go into the alpine because they're forest specialists, and there is no reason for them to move into an objectively poorer habitat where they are poorly adapted. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand.

Dendrophylax lindenii is adapted to very humid conditions in Florida and Cuba, while Dendrophylax funalis is adapted to relatively drier conditions in Jamaica. I can grow D. funalis outside here in very dry Southern California. If all the lindenii were magically pollinated with funalis, then what? The result would be a hybrid swarm that could colonize a continuum of humidity levels. Basically, some of the Dendrophylax hybrids would be able to colonize habitats outside the Florida everglades, such as orchards and street trees. The result would be much more rapid adaptive radiation.

I would encourage you to read some genetics written in the last century, since blending inheritance got debunked quite a while ago. Of particular relevance is the existence of outbreeding depression, and the fact that hybridization often leads to the production of individuals that are less well adapted to either sets of conditions than their parents, since genes are not cups full of coloured water that you can gently pour in whatever combination you like.

Adaptive radiation depends on diversity...the more diversity within a population, the more likely it is that individuals will be able to colonize a different type of habitat.

Adaptive radiation requires the opposite of diversity - it occurs when a small founding population is faced with a set of empty niches, usually without any competition. See the colonization of the Rift Valley lakes by cichlids.

This is the Youtube video through which I learned about Pleistocene Park... The Plan to Revive the Mammoth Steppe to Fight Climate Change. In the video he talks about whether humans or climate change was responsible for the extinction of animals like the mammoth. He thinks it was humans, and I agree with him. Our ancestors hunted mammoths and cave lions to extinction. If we humans suddenly vanished, then nature would again fill the voids left by mammoths and cave lions. But it would take a relatively long time.

If by 'relatively long time' you mean tens of millions of years and more likely the expansion of existing predators rather than de novo evolution, sure.

[Louisiana and Arkansas]

I think this is the funniest thing I've read today.
Good job.

[The Two Jerseys]

Imagine a town somewhere in Europe. The town is at the base of a big mountain. The town has lots and lots of house cats. Just outside the town and ranging half way up the mountain is a very small population of wildcats (Felis silvestris).

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

You have two options. Use the town's resources to...

A. facilitate hybridization between house cats and wildcats
B. block hybridization between house cats and wildcats

Personally I'd go with the first option. It's true that the wildcats are marginally better adapted to the cold than the house cats, but the population of wildcats is too small to "quickly" colonize and adapt to the mountain's snowy peak. You're immortal but you never know when a vampire hunter is going to visit.

With the first option each year you would maximize the number of cats living in the area. The cats are going to compete for limited resources (ie mice) so there is going to be a serious survival advantage given to the cats that can hunt and survive at higher elevations. Each year the frontier cats are going to be better and better adapted (ie fluffier) to higher elevations. Within a relatively short period, voila! A snow wildcat!

Traditional conservation is about preservation, but this conflicts with nature's fundamental imperative... colonization.

On a somewhat related note, check out Pleistocene Park.

And... why is my greatest desire for there to be a snow wildcat?

...And... why am I a vampire?

Because when you've already done everything there is to do because you're immortal, you need to come up with new ways to spend your infinitely available time. It's the only way this makes any sense...

[Xerographica]

Imagine a town somewhere in Europe. The town is at the base of a big mountain. The town has lots and lots of house cats. Just outside the town and ranging half way up the mountain is a very small population of wildcats (Felis silvestris).

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

You have two options. Use the town's resources to...

A. facilitate hybridization between house cats and wildcats
B. block hybridization between house cats and wildcats

Personally I'd go with the first option. It's true that the wildcats are marginally better adapted to the cold than the house cats, but the population of wildcats is too small to "quickly" colonize and adapt to the mountain's snowy peak. You're immortal but you never know when a vampire hunter is going to visit.

With the first option each year you would maximize the number of cats living in the area. The cats are going to compete for limited resources (ie mice) so there is going to be a serious survival advantage given to the cats that can hunt and survive at higher elevations. Each year the frontier cats are going to be better and better adapted (ie fluffier) to higher elevations. Within a relatively short period, voila! A snow wildcat!

Traditional conservation is about preservation, but this conflicts with nature's fundamental imperative... colonization.

On a somewhat related note, check out Pleistocene Park.

And... why is my greatest desire for there to be a snow wildcat?

...And... why am I a vampire?

You're a vampire because you were bit by one. Your greatest desire is the result of a combination of your two greatest loves... alpine habitats and cats.

[Punished UMN]

ctrl+f donations --- Hmm? Damnit, this thing must be broken.

[Kannap]

Leave the wildcats alone.

Now the real question is which is a better way to determine how cool wildcats are compared to snow leopards. Will we vote or donate? Surely if you're willing to donate to the wildcat side, you care more than if you were to vote.

[Kannap]

Is it acceptable for my "vampire mayor" character in this hypothetical to look like Morrigan Aensland?

Now this thread is the worst crossover episode I've ever seen.

[Kannap]

And... why is my greatest desire for there to be a snow wildcat?

...And... why am I a vampire?

You're a vampire because you were bit by one. Your greatest desire is the result of a combination of your two greatest loves... alpine habitats and cats.

So your greatest desire is combine two things that have already been combined naturally a number of times? There are numerous mountain cats globally, why do you need to force a species of cat that isn't suited for mountains to live in the mountains? Particularly when there are cats suited for the mountains that already live in mountains...

Sounds like a case of very low confidence and lack of ambition and that's gonna suck to live with for eternity.

[Neanderthaland]

The tallest person out of 10 random people is probably going to be a lot shorter than the tallest person out of 100,000 people. The larger the pool of individuals, the greater the diversity, the faster the adaptability.

A very small population of wildcats is going to have less variation in size than a large population of house cats. If we want the wildcat to adapt to hunting larger prey animals, whether it's hares or lambs, it needs to have more variation in size, which it can get by hybridizing with house cats. Same thing if we want the wildcats to have more variation in cold tolerance.

All of this is a moot point though if you don't actually want cats to colonize the mountain. But this is something that nature certainly wants.

Nature cannot want.

And even if it could. How would we ever know?

Since it can't donate.

[Kannap]

Nature cannot want.

And even if it could. How would we ever know?

Since it can't donate.

Species that go extinct should've simply voted harder not to go extinct.

[The Holy Therns]

And... why is my greatest desire for there to be a snow wildcat?

...And... why am I a vampire?

You're a vampire because you were bit by one. Your greatest desire is the result of a combination of your two greatest loves... alpine habitats and cats.

Restating the statement does not explain the statement, Xero.

Since only one of these factors is true of me (my love for cats) this scenario has nothing to do with me. I think I'll respectfully bow back out.

[Heloin]

You're a vampire because you were bit by one. Your greatest desire is the result of a combination of your two greatest loves... alpine habitats and cats.

So your greatest desire is combine two things that have already been combined naturally a number of times? There are numerous mountain cats globally, why do you need to force a species of cat that isn't suited for mountains to live in the mountains? Particularly when there are cats suited for the mountains that already live in mountains...

Sounds like a case of very low confidence and lack of ambition and that's gonna suck to live with for eternity.

Get ready to hear about Xero's next scheme, growing Mangos in Antarctica.