Snow Wildcat?

[Xerographica]

Imagine a town somewhere in Europe. The town is at the base of a big mountain. The town has lots and lots of house cats. Just outside the town and ranging half way up the mountain is a very small population of wildcats (Felis silvestris).

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

You have two options. Use the town's resources to...

A. facilitate hybridization between house cats and wildcats
B. block hybridization between house cats and wildcats

Personally I'd go with the first option. It's true that the wildcats are marginally better adapted to the cold than the house cats, but the population of wildcats is too small to "quickly" colonize and adapt to the mountain's snowy peak. You're immortal but you never know when a vampire hunter is going to visit.

With the first option each year you would maximize the number of cats living in the area. The cats are going to compete for limited resources (ie mice) so there is going to be a serious survival advantage given to the cats that can hunt and survive at higher elevations. Each year the frontier cats are going to be better and better adapted (ie fluffier) to higher elevations. Within a relatively short period, voila! A snow wildcat!

Traditional conservation is about preservation, but this conflicts with nature's fundamental imperative... colonization.

On a somewhat related note, check out Pleistocene Park.

[Nilokeras]

Oh boy we've graduated from you misunderstanding economics to misunderstanding ecology

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard.

A wildcat that lives in snowy areas is already a 'snow' wildcat

A. facilitate hybridization between house cats and wildcats
B. block hybridization between house cats and wildcats

European wildcats do not commonly hybridize with domestic cats.

Personally I'd go with the first option. It's true that the wildcats are marginally better adapted to the cold than the house cats,

How do you know that?

but the population of wildcats is too small to "quickly" colonize and adapt to the mountain's snowy peak.

Why would wildcats live on the top of a mountain where there's nothing to eat

With the first option each year you would maximize the number of cats living in the area. The cats are going to compete for limited resources (ie mice)

Wildcats and domestic cats have a varied diet, consisting of a number of different small mammals, birds and carrion. Competition among species with similar niches leads to a competitive equilibrium as predation pressure and competition is spread out over multiple prey items.

so there is going to be a serious survival advantage given to the cats that can hunt and survive at higher elevations.

There is nothing to eat in the high elevation areas of mountains - there tends to be minimal plant cover, which means fewer primary/secondary consumers and fewer prey items for the cats to eat. This is nonsense

[Neanderthaland]

Oh boy we've graduated from you misunderstanding economics to misunderstanding ecology

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard.

A wildcat that lives in snowy areas is already a 'snow' wildcat

A. facilitate hybridization between house cats and wildcats
B. block hybridization between house cats and wildcats

European wildcats do not commonly hybridize with domestic cats.

Personally I'd go with the first option. It's true that the wildcats are marginally better adapted to the cold than the house cats,

How do you know that?

but the population of wildcats is too small to "quickly" colonize and adapt to the mountain's snowy peak.

Why would wildcats live on the top of a mountain where there's nothing to eat

With the first option each year you would maximize the number of cats living in the area. The cats are going to compete for limited resources (ie mice)

Wildcats and domestic cats have a varied diet, consisting of a number of different small mammals, birds and carrion. Competition among species with similar niches leads to a competitive equilibrium as predation pressure and competition is spread out over multiple prey items.

so there is going to be a serious survival advantage given to the cats that can hunt and survive at higher elevations.

There is nothing to eat in the high elevation areas of mountains - there tends to be minimal plant cover, which means fewer primary/secondary consumers and fewer prey items for the cats to eat. This is nonsense

To elaborate on this, domestic cats have:
A) A wide prey base
B) A prey base with high concentrations close to human settlement, and
C) Are frequently fed by humans.

This, combined with the fact that they are typically not treated as pests by humans, gives them a massive food advantage in urban areas where most predators would struggle. It's really the wildcat that should be adapting to move into urban areas. They would benefit much more from hybridization if it allowed them to do that, then the domestic cats would benefit from being able to climb mountains.

[Heloin]

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

What the fuck are you smoking?

[Xmara]

What did I just read

[Nilokeras]

To elaborate on this, domestic cats have:
A) A wide prey base
B) A prey base with high concentrations close to human settlement, and
C) Are frequently fed by humans.

This, combined with the fact that they are typically not treated as pests by humans, gives them a massive food advantage in urban areas where most predators would struggle. It really the wildcat that should be adapting to move into urban areas. They would benefit much more from hybridization if it allowed them to do that, then the domestic cats would benefit from being able to climb mountains.

Plus the comparison with snow leopards is particularly weird. Both domestic and, well, wildcats have similar niches - they're medium sized generalist predators. Which makes sense since domestic cats are descendants of the same broad Felis species complex that sprawls across Europe, Africa and Asia that F. sylvestris is a part of.

Snow leopards in contrast are specialist ambush predators of the high alpine that require stable populations of grazing animals within a certain size class in order to survive. In its native habitat there are large populations of wild and domesticated grazing animals with seasonal upslope and downslope migration patterns for them to take advantage of, and which supplements alpine productivity through the movement of nutrients via the grazers' dung - none of that exists in Europe, and hasn't since the last Ice Age. There's simply no 'snow wildcat'-slash-snow leopard niche to occupy.

[Neanderthaland]

To elaborate on this, domestic cats have:
A) A wide prey base
B) A prey base with high concentrations close to human settlement, and
C) Are frequently fed by humans.

This, combined with the fact that they are typically not treated as pests by humans, gives them a massive food advantage in urban areas where most predators would struggle. It really the wildcat that should be adapting to move into urban areas. They would benefit much more from hybridization if it allowed them to do that, then the domestic cats would benefit from being able to climb mountains.

Plus the comparison with snow leopards is particularly weird. Both domestic and, well, wildcats have similar niches - they're medium sized generalist predators. Which makes sense since domestic cats are descendants of the same broad Felis species complex that sprawls across Europe, Africa and Asia that F. sylvestris is a part of.

Snow leopards in contrast are specialist ambush predators of the high alpine that require stable populations of grazing animals within a certain size class in order to survive. In its native habitat there are large populations of wild and domesticated grazing animals with seasonal upslope and downslope migration patterns for them to take advantage of, and which supplements alpine productivity through the movement of nutrients via the grazers' dung - none of that exists in Europe, and hasn't since the last Ice Age. There's simply no 'snow wildcat'-slash-snow leopard niche to occupy.

Not unless they adapt to eat skiers.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

What the fuck are you smoking?

Inquiring minds wonder this too.

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

I don’t think anyone really needs to wonder why NSG is the laughingstock of the entire rest of the site

[Xerographica]

To elaborate on this, domestic cats have:
A) A wide prey base
B) A prey base with high concentrations close to human settlement, and
C) Are frequently fed by humans.

This, combined with the fact that they are typically not treated as pests by humans, gives them a massive food advantage in urban areas where most predators would struggle. It really the wildcat that should be adapting to move into urban areas. They would benefit much more from hybridization if it allowed them to do that, then the domestic cats would benefit from being able to climb mountains.

Plus the comparison with snow leopards is particularly weird. Both domestic and, well, wildcats have similar niches - they're medium sized generalist predators. Which makes sense since domestic cats are descendants of the same broad Felis species complex that sprawls across Europe, Africa and Asia that F. sylvestris is a part of.

Snow leopards in contrast are specialist ambush predators of the high alpine that require stable populations of grazing animals within a certain size class in order to survive. In its native habitat there are large populations of wild and domesticated grazing animals with seasonal upslope and downslope migration patterns for them to take advantage of, and which supplements alpine productivity through the movement of nutrients via the grazers' dung - none of that exists in Europe, and hasn't since the last Ice Age. There's simply no 'snow wildcat'-slash-snow leopard niche to occupy.

So assume the existence of mountain sheep and/or goats. It isn't an unreasonable assumption...

On a somewhat related note, check out Pleistocene Park.

[Nilokeras]

So assume the existence of mountain sheep and/or goats. It isn't an unreasonable assumption...

Which wildcats still couldn't eat, because they're about 5 kg soaking wet. Charitably we could assume the restoration of Pleistocene grazers to these alpine areas and that might increase the productivity of meadows somewhat, but that doesn't change the fact the European wildcat is a forest-dweller and wouldn't benefit from productivity further up past the treeline. What is the point of this exercise?

On a somewhat related note, check out Pleistocene Park.

Okay, and?

[Alcala-Cordel]

Does this relate to donations in some way?

[Eahland]

Wildcats.

White spraypaint.

Done.

[Nilokeras]

Does this relate to donations in some way?

That's the thing I can't figure out - there was obviously some angle they were going for about competition and hybridization but the ecology of their argument is faring about as well as a dinghy hitting a naval mine so it's difficult to tell what the 'gotcha' moment was supposed to be.

[Zurkir]

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

Tell me how a vampire was elected mayor. I’d like to hear that. I’d also like to know the average age, racial, and religious demographic of this town...

[Xerographica]

So assume the existence of mountain sheep and/or goats. It isn't an unreasonable assumption...

Which wildcats still couldn't eat, because they're about 5 kg soaking wet. Charitably we could assume the restoration of Pleistocene grazers to these alpine areas and that might increase the productivity of meadows somewhat, but that doesn't change the fact the European wildcat is a forest-dweller and wouldn't benefit from productivity further up past the treeline. What is the point of this exercise?

The tallest person out of 10 random people is probably going to be a lot shorter than the tallest person out of 100,000 people. The larger the pool of individuals, the greater the diversity, the faster the adaptability.

A very small population of wildcats is going to have less variation in size than a large population of house cats. If we want the wildcat to adapt to hunting larger prey animals, whether it's hares or lambs, it needs to have more variation in size, which it can get by hybridizing with house cats. Same thing if we want the wildcats to have more variation in cold tolerance.

All of this is a moot point though if you don't actually want cats to colonize the mountain. But this is something that nature certainly wants.

[Neutraligon]

Which wildcats still couldn't eat, because they're about 5 kg soaking wet. Charitably we could assume the restoration of Pleistocene grazers to these alpine areas and that might increase the productivity of meadows somewhat, but that doesn't change the fact the European wildcat is a forest-dweller and wouldn't benefit from productivity further up past the treeline. What is the point of this exercise?

The tallest person out of 10 random people is probably going to be a lot shorter than the tallest person out of 100,000 people. The larger the pool of individuals, the greater the diversity, the faster the adaptability.

A very small population of wildcats is going to have less variation in size than a large population of house cats. If we want the wildcat to adapt to hunting larger prey animals, whether it's hares or lambs, it needs to have more variation in size, which it can get by hybridizing with house cats. Same thing if we want the wildcats to have more variation in cold tolerance.

All of this is a moot point though if you don't actually want cats to colonize the mountain. But this is something that nature certainly wants.

Nature cannot want.

[Nilokeras]

A very small population of wildcats is going to have less variation in size than a large population of house cats. If we want the wildcat to adapt to hunting larger prey animals, whether it's hares or lambs, it needs to have more variation in size, which it can get by hybridizing with house cats. Same thing if we want the wildcats to have more variation in cold tolerance.

Considering how selectively inbred most lines of domestic cats are, domestic cats probably have much less variation in size on average than wildcats.

All of this is a moot point though if you don't actually want cats to colonize the mountain. But this is something that nature certainly wants.

Nature doesn't 'want' anything. F. silvestris is a forest-dwelling species - it is well adapted to that system, and experiences greater competition and predation outside of forests from predators like European jackals, who are adapted to lowland and grassland habitat. There's no open niche to support them expanding into the alpine, since there is not enough productivity to support them, and therefore they don't. Nowhere in nature is 'empty' - if a given organism isn't in a given location there's a reason why it's not there.

[Xerographica]

A very small population of wildcats is going to have less variation in size than a large population of house cats. If we want the wildcat to adapt to hunting larger prey animals, whether it's hares or lambs, it needs to have more variation in size, which it can get by hybridizing with house cats. Same thing if we want the wildcats to have more variation in cold tolerance.

Considering how selectively inbred most lines of domestic cats are, domestic cats probably have much less variation in size on average than wildcats.

All of this is a moot point though if you don't actually want cats to colonize the mountain. But this is something that nature certainly wants.

Nature doesn't 'want' anything. F. silvestris is a forest-dwelling species - it is well adapted to that system, and experiences greater competition and predation outside of forests from predators like European jackals, who are adapted to lowland and grassland habitat. There's no open niche to support them expanding into the alpine, since there is not enough productivity to support them, and therefore they don't. Nowhere in nature is 'empty' - if a given organism isn't in a given location there's a reason why it's not there.

Imagine an alien landing on earth before there were any epiphytes and saying, "Look at the trees, nothing is growing on them, therefore nothing will grow on them!"

[Eahland]

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

Tell me how a vampire was elected mayor. I’d like to hear that. I’d also like to know the average age, racial, and religious demographic of this town...

I actually had a Dwarf Fortress where they kept electing a vampire mayor. My designated mayor kept getting deposed because she would do literally anything to avoid talking to the outpost liason, and whenever she got deposed, the dwarves would invariably elect the vampire - who was walled up in a tomb after an incident in which she drank a ranger in the middle of a crowded dining hall - to replace her.

The undead have centuries to practice social skills, which gives them a leg up on elected positions. Thus Strom Thurmond.

[Nilokeras]

Considering how selectively inbred most lines of domestic cats are, domestic cats probably have much less variation in size on average than wildcats.



Nature doesn't 'want' anything. F. silvestris is a forest-dwelling species - it is well adapted to that system, and experiences greater competition and predation outside of forests from predators like European jackals, who are adapted to lowland and grassland habitat. There's no open niche to support them expanding into the alpine, since there is not enough productivity to support them, and therefore they don't. Nowhere in nature is 'empty' - if a given organism isn't in a given location there's a reason why it's not there.

Imagine an alien landing on earth before there were any epiphytes and saying, "Look at the trees, nothing is growing on them, therefore nothing will grow on them!"

'if a given organism isn't in a given location there's a reason why it's not there.'

If we're in the Ordovician, that reason can be 'land plants do not have the capability to grow outside the soil'. That inability to grow roots outside of the soil is a barrier to creating and exploiting that epiphyte niche and could be overcome through adaptive radiation.

But we're in the Anthropocene, talking about the reasons why wildcats have not expanded outside of their niche as forest mesopredators. Those reasons include competition and predation in the lowlands and clear areas, and in the alpine a lack of food. Niche expansions only occur when there is a release of one or more of those limiting factors or barriers.

[Zurkir]

Your greatest desire is for there to be a snow wildcat, just like how there's a snow leopard. You're the town's mayor, and you're a vampire, so you're going to live forever, unless you get staked through the heart.

Tell me how a vampire was elected mayor. I’d like to hear that. I’d also like to know the average age, racial, and religious demographic of this town...

I actually had a Dwarf Fortress where they kept electing a vampire mayor. My designated mayor kept getting deposed because she would do literally anything to avoid talking to the outpost liason, and whenever she got deposed, the dwarves would invariably elect the vampire - who was walled up in a tomb after an incident in which she drank a ranger in the middle of a crowded dining hall - to replace her.

The undead have centuries to practice social skills, which gives them a leg up on elected positions. Thus Strom Thurmond.

I’m operating on the premise of the indisputable vampire features cliché to older movies and some modern games ( like Skyrim); the bat-like facial structure and demonic red eyes, the hissing and transforming into an aerial rodent, the superiority complex, etcetera.

Not the suave moon-skinned charmer type that everyone wants to sleep with.

Of course I was partially hoping for more weed-induced dialogue from the OP regarding this.

[Kowani]

this is somehow still not the stupidest thing i've read today

[Risottia]

I don’t think anyone really needs to wonder why NSG is the laughingstock of the entire rest of the site

I personally have a lot of laughs at the Roleplaying and WA fora, but I guess threads such as this one do make a rather strong case.

[The New California Republic]

So this is what happens on NS while I am sleeping.