NATION

PASSWORD

The Destruction of Earth's Oceans

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you think our oceans are in danger?

Yes and plastic waste is the worst contributor
10
18%
Yes and shark finning/whaling/overfishing are the worst contributors
5
9%
Yes and shark finning/whaling/overfishing and plastic waste contribute equally
25
45%
No the oceans will always recover
10
18%
No our impact on the oceans is minimal
1
2%
Not enough information is available
2
4%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes : 55

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Alien Overlord
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The Destruction of Earth's Oceans

Postby Alien Overlord » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:06 am

After watching documentaries such as Blackfish and Seaspiracy it's hard not to question the morality of what humanity has done and continues to do to the worlds oceans. We routinely overfish to the point of causing extinction. We capture and sell young dolphins, orca's and other sea creatures for use in aquariums where their standard of life is so low that they almost never live to their natural lifespans. We dump over 14 billion (that's billion with a B) pounds of plastic into the ocean every year and plenty more. With so much pressure on sea life it's not hard to imagine that by 2100 the oceans will be dead, potentially leading to massive and irreversible consequences for humanity.

I want to reiterate a previous point and build on it. We dump roughly 14,000,000,000 pounds of plastic into the ocean every single year. From this reliable source i would like to quote "Work from the Algalita Foundation indicates there is six times more plastic than phytoplankton per weight and fifty times more plastic than zooplankton. Over half this plastic is less than 60 mm- or a quarter inch." Now you might think to yourself what such small plastic pieces could possibly do to creatures living in the oceans. As pointed out by the Seaspiracy documentary, these tiny pieces of plastic travel up the food chain to whales through small creatures such as phytoplankton. Plastic waste in our oceans kill about 1,000,000 sea creatures every year and those that it doesn't kill, it weakens and poisons.

This demonstrates somewhat the horror that we are inflicting on our wildlife. Even our wild birds are being decimated by our plastic usage. It's not just Albatross and fish that are affected but so are sea turtles, as demonstrated here. We've produced enough plastic waste that you can even find in the deepest parts of the ocean, namely the Mariana's Trench as mentioned here. It takes plastics between 500 to 1000 years to disintegrate. That means the earliest these plastics being made today and dumped into the ocean will decompose is in 2521, but could stay around till 3021. Oh and did i mention that if we don't change things NOW that the amount of garbage in the ocean will triple by 2040. That's in little less than twenty years.

But these are indirect things. Sure we're dumping enough trash into the ocean to kill it ten times over, but that's mainly born of ignorance. What can't be excused by any measure are the inhumane, cruel and unacceptable practices of shark finning and whaling . As evidenced here the shark populations have crashed by 71 percent in the past couple of decades. Whats more despicable is that much of the time these deaths can be attributed to the horrid act of shark finning. For those who don't know what shark finning is, it's where captured sharks have their fins cut off before the shark is thrown back into the water, where it is unable to move and drowns. Fishermen willingly take sharks, slice off their limbs and let them drown, all for soup that has NO medicinal or nutritional value, nor a taste and which costs only 100 dollars.

in 2019 Japan resumed commercial whaling despite international outcry as evidenced here. Acknowledged globally however, demand for whale meat has dropped for a myriad of reasons and thankfully the practice may hopefully die out permanently, but for now Japan still clings to ancient customs despite the reality of it's actions.

So where am I going with all this? Our oceans are becoming unsustainable and may die in our lifetimes. Since most of our oxygen is produced by creatures in the oceans this is concerning for me and i would hope concerning for others as well. Do you agree that our oceans are in imminent danger? What methods can our governments take to reverse this looming disaster?
Last edited by Alien Overlord on Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
Walkerfort wrote:so...




Banning cars will lead to a clusterfuck of mininations everywhere and attempting to mash two Eras together miserably and 1984 style dictatorships


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Ayissor wrote:
Alien Overlord wrote:You mean the proles living in tribes right? The ones who were also brainwashed 1984 style?

Yup, who else? Workers? Ha, as if we need them in our anarcho-primitivist-orwellian utopia dystopia federation.

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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:14 am

Without minimizing the impact of plastics, to be honest, I'm far more worried about the impact of climate change -- at least 90% of all global coral reefs are going to be completely eradicated in the next 30 years due to bleaching and CO2-induced ocean acidification, if we're lucky. Many more somber estimates project it at 99%, causing catastrophic direct impacts for around 275 million people directly reliant on it for their daily life and food (IPCC). Not to mention the rest of the ecological disaster that will follow. As someone who came from a maritime country, to be honest, this thing is obviously less of a liberal tree-hugging issue and more of an enormous national security and economic threat.
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Celestial Provinces
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Postby Celestial Provinces » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:18 am

The great oxidation event 2.0?
Probably not
We’ll see (maybe)
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New Jewlan
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Postby New Jewlan » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:40 am

What's a thousand years, next to the vast seas of time separating us from the big bang, or the catastrophic meteorite impact? Extinction 6.0 is inevitable, might as well enjoy the ride. I'm sure we will get over it; adverse global climate effects provided the conditions for the human race's creation - super-pollutive events can only perfect our evolution.

(Sarcasm intended)
- Sincerely,
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:52 am

New Jewlan wrote:soon-to-be-maligned Young Earth Creationist

:roll:
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Holocene Extinction

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:05 am

I don’t see any option about the warming and acidification of the oceans.
Last edited by Adamede on Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:06 am

New Jewlan wrote:What's a thousand years, next to the vast seas of time separating us from the big bang, or the catastrophic meteorite impact? Extinction 6.0 is inevitable, might as well enjoy the ride. I'm sure we will get over it; adverse global climate effects provided the conditions for the human race's creation - super-pollutive events can only perfect our evolution.

(Sarcasm intended)
- Sincerely,
a soon-to-be-maligned Young Earth Creationist

Proving yet again what a laughable idea that Young Earth creationism is.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:18 am

Adamede wrote:
New Jewlan wrote:What's a thousand years, next to the vast seas of time separating us from the big bang, or the catastrophic meteorite impact? Extinction 6.0 is inevitable, might as well enjoy the ride. I'm sure we will get over it; adverse global climate effects provided the conditions for the human race's creation - super-pollutive events can only perfect our evolution.

(Sarcasm intended)
- Sincerely,
a soon-to-be-maligned Young Earth Creationist

Proving yet again what a laughable idea that Young Earth creationism is.


Not that it really needs proving. :p
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:26 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Adamede wrote:Proving yet again what a laughable idea that Young Earth creationism is.


Not that it really needs proving. :p


When your ideology can be easily disproved by the fact we can see stars, you know that it doesn't deserve the time of day.
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Celestial Provinces
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Postby Celestial Provinces » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:41 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Not that it really needs proving. :p


When your ideology can be easily disproved by the fact we can see stars, you know that it doesn't deserve the time of day.

Carbon dating too
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New yugoslavaia
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Postby New yugoslavaia » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:44 am

Adamede wrote:
New Jewlan wrote:What's a thousand years, next to the vast seas of time separating us from the big bang, or the catastrophic meteorite impact? Extinction 6.0 is inevitable, might as well enjoy the ride. I'm sure we will get over it; adverse global climate effects provided the conditions for the human race's creation - super-pollutive events can only perfect our evolution.

(Sarcasm intended)
- Sincerely,
a soon-to-be-maligned Young Earth Creationist

Proving yet again what a laughable idea that Young Earth creationism is.


Not to mention the whole Adam and Eve story infers that we're all a bunch of Inbreds.
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New yugoslavaia
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Postby New yugoslavaia » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:10 am

New Jewlan:
"Pro: Globe-earth theory, Flat-earth theory,"

How does that even work?
Last edited by New yugoslavaia on Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yugoslavia's back baby...

How the hell did this happen?
Well...we don't actually know. Just sort of happened one day.
Is it a reunited Yugoslavia in the 21st century? Is a rebel colony world in the far future? Is it a race of cyborg neo-life at war with any assimilating organisms they come across in the far far future? Who knows, who cares?
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Alien Overlord
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Postby Alien Overlord » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:25 am

Speaking of acidification (and to get us back on track), according to this article the oceans have seen a 30% increase in acidification over the past 200 years.
Walkerfort wrote:so...




Banning cars will lead to a clusterfuck of mininations everywhere and attempting to mash two Eras together miserably and 1984 style dictatorships


butterfly effect when give a butterfly cocaine


Ayissor wrote:
Alien Overlord wrote:You mean the proles living in tribes right? The ones who were also brainwashed 1984 style?

Yup, who else? Workers? Ha, as if we need them in our anarcho-primitivist-orwellian utopia dystopia federation.

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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:34 am

New yugoslavaia wrote:
Adamede wrote:Proving yet again what a laughable idea that Young Earth creationism is.


Not to mention the whole Adam and Eve story infers that we're all a bunch of Inbreds.


To be fair, we actually kind of are, although our most recent common ancestors weren't the first or only people of their time and probably never knew each other.
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Unstoppable Empire of Doom
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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:08 am

50% of plastic in the ocean are commercial fishing nets. So while it is a good idea to forgo the plastic straw you mix your coffee with just keep in mind nothing will improve unless fisheries give a fuck.
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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:09 am

Mass extinctions tend to be rough on the oceans, yeah. I'm just really thankful that I was lucky enough to experience healthy coral reefs firsthand before they're all gone, and hoping against hope that some of the super-coral breeding programs bear fruit (or at least are able to stave off total worldwide extinction).

The plastic and overfishing problems are extremely bad, obviously, but OP should be worried more about heat, fertilizer runoff, and acidification than anything else imo. In theory, we can stop fishing, and someday plastic will degrade even if it causes problems for centuries or millennia, but neither fishing nor plastic pollution are going to turn the equatorial seas into lifeless hot-tubs or dissolve the shells of mollusks the world over.
Last edited by Senkaku on Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:09 am

One thing that should be a start with the oceans is we could stop putting the onus on the average person and actually start targeting offenders.

For example, more than half of the plastic in the oceans (actually isn't it more like 75%?) is just nets from commercial fishing. Sure, the occasional picture of a turtle stuck in a beer ring crops up but generally it's nets, nets and nets that are polluting the world's waters. The world's governments could do a hell of a lot of good just by simply ensuring that the fishing industry alone doesn't pollute the water.

Which is especially an irony because you'd think fishing would be the most in favour of protecting the world's oceans, but yet they seem the most determined to destroy their own incomes by overfishing to hell, using the absolutely most destructive methods they can get away with, and then throwing away over half the fish they catch anyway, dead, because they weren't big enough or simply weren't a profitable species. Commercial, industrialised fishing accounts for a vast portion of the actual destruction of the oceans, and reigning them in systematically, worldwide, for dozens of separate, egregious yet tragically commonplace practices would be a revolution in preserving the world's oceans.

We need to review and redo the concept of international waters. Because at the moment, fishing seems to just consider international waters as fair game that they can overexploit to their heart's content, all the time. If there were actual laws, with real enforcement mechanisms, specific towards international waters, again we'd see a bit change.

Most of the rest of your post in fact is just a catalogue of cruel practices of, yet again, fishers.

There are other culprits out there for sure, and even the average common consumer plays a role in damaging the oceans. But if we don't call a spade a spade and reign in the specific, visible group of people who are demonstrably causing the majority of the damage, then there is absolutely no hope.

Suriyanakhon wrote:
New yugoslavaia wrote:
Not to mention the whole Adam and Eve story infers that we're all a bunch of Inbreds.


To be fair, we actually kind of are, although our most recent common ancestors weren't the first or only people of their time and probably never knew each other.


And also something subject to where you come from.

Let's just say that Africa's people are a lot more genetically diverse than the rest of the world is. Like, a lot more.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:14 am

Oceans will 100% die in our lifetimes. There's going to be more plastic than fish in them in just a couple more decades.

It's fun watching the world die in slow-mo. Cinema makes you think the apocalypse is a fast thing but reality doesn't seem to hold to that.
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Mercatus
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Postby Mercatus » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:28 am

Adamede wrote:
New Jewlan wrote:What's a thousand years, next to the vast seas of time separating us from the big bang, or the catastrophic meteorite impact? Extinction 6.0 is inevitable, might as well enjoy the ride. I'm sure we will get over it; adverse global climate effects provided the conditions for the human race's creation - super-pollutive events can only perfect our evolution.

(Sarcasm intended)
- Sincerely,
a soon-to-be-maligned Young Earth Creationist

Proving yet again what a laughable idea that Young Earth creationism is.


Agreed. Even many of my fellow Christians agree that the Earth, while still created by the LORD Almighty, is millions/billions of years old.
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Nilokeras
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Postby Nilokeras » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:33 am

Senkaku wrote:Mass extinctions tend to be rough on the oceans, yeah. I'm just really thankful that I was lucky enough to experience healthy coral reefs firsthand before they're all gone, and hoping against hope that some of the super-coral breeding programs bear fruit (or at least are able to stave off total worldwide extinction).


Inside baseball from some of my colleagues in the coral world is that it's not particularly promising - adaptation is slow, expensive and targets single species. Real reefs are composed of assemblages of species which we barely understand, let alone have enough of a grasp to manipulate at a genetic level. The few researchers at the forefront of adaptation are also apparently, to put it generously, quite the characters with a knack for media attention which gives these ideas oversized play.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:36 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Oceans will 100% die in our lifetimes. There's going to be more plastic than fish in them in just a couple more decades.

It's fun watching the world die in slow-mo. Cinema makes you think the apocalypse is a fast thing but reality doesn't seem to hold to that.


Don't worry, I'm sure Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are going to save us right in the nick of time with some gadget that pulls all the plastic out of the sea or space ships to take us all to Mars. /s
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:58 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Oceans will 100% die in our lifetimes. There's going to be more plastic than fish in them in just a couple more decades.

It's fun watching the world die in slow-mo. Cinema makes you think the apocalypse is a fast thing but reality doesn't seem to hold to that.


Truth be told, it won't be 100% dead. There are some damn hardy small fish and weeds that should survive fine, even if we decided it was our mission to kill the ocean. Jellyfish have actually done very well under human management, to the point where it's frankly disturbing how many piers you can look into the water from and see nothing but these ghosts lingering around.

But yeah. Fun in the same sense that watching a greek tragedy is fun.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Mercatus
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Postby Mercatus » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:04 am

Chan Island wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Oceans will 100% die in our lifetimes. There's going to be more plastic than fish in them in just a couple more decades.

It's fun watching the world die in slow-mo. Cinema makes you think the apocalypse is a fast thing but reality doesn't seem to hold to that.


Truth be told, it won't be 100% dead. There are some damn hardy small fish and weeds that should survive fine, even if we decided it was our mission to kill the ocean. Jellyfish have actually done very well under human management, to the point where it's frankly disturbing how many piers you can look into the water from and see nothing but these ghosts lingering around.

But yeah. Fun in the same sense that watching a greek tragedy is fun.


I hate jellies. I’m not scared by much, but those things creep me the fuck out.

Also, the abyss of the very, very deep parts of the ocean should remain okay. Someone tell me is it possible to eat Hagfish or a giant isopod?
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:13 am

I have to admit that I don't really keep up with the latest news in the area of environmental conservation the way I used to, and the principal reason for that is that it is so damned depressing. Even if there existed a means to undo the enormous damage done to marine ecosystems by climate change, pollution and overfishing, unfortunately it has become increasingly clear that the political will simply does not exist to tackle issues that do not directly affect people in the short term- even if the long-term impacts on both non-human life and future generations of humans stand to be catastrophic. We hold the dubious honour of being the only known species who are just about smart enough to destroy our own ecosystem but not quite smart enough to realise it's a bad idea to do so.

Chan Island is of course right in saying that not everything in the oceans is going to die as a consequence of human actions. Life is remarkably tenacious and its ability to persist in adverse conditions should not be underestimated. However, that doesn't change the fact that the consequences of humanity's impact on ocean ecosystems is already enormous and only likely to get worse in the forseeable future. We are in the midst of likely the first mass extinction even in history caused by one species. The fact that some species will almost certainly survive us isn't really all that much comfort.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:32 am

Mercatus wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Truth be told, it won't be 100% dead. There are some damn hardy small fish and weeds that should survive fine, even if we decided it was our mission to kill the ocean. Jellyfish have actually done very well under human management, to the point where it's frankly disturbing how many piers you can look into the water from and see nothing but these ghosts lingering around.

But yeah. Fun in the same sense that watching a greek tragedy is fun.


I hate jellies. I’m not scared by much, but those things creep me the fuck out.

Also, the abyss of the very, very deep parts of the ocean should remain okay. Someone tell me is it possible to eat Hagfish or a giant isopod?


Counterintuitively, the deep abyss is in fact an extremely vulnerable ecosystem. There is no light down there, there's literal kilometres of water blocking the sun's warmth, so basically all of the nutrition that comes there is in the form of 'marine snow', dead matter from above drifting below. If you ever have the time, I highly recommend looking at whale-fall communities, fascinating stuff.

But what happens when everything up top has died? Or even just sufficiently large amounts of the biosphere is overfished by humanity that the marine snow reduces or even stops? Everything dies. With the exception of a few thermal vents that could keep surviving even if the sun went dark, the bottoms would be near utterly lifeless.
Old Tyrannia wrote:
Chan Island is of course right in saying that not everything in the oceans is going to die as a consequence of human actions. Life is remarkably tenacious and its ability to persist in adverse conditions should not be underestimated. However, that doesn't change the fact that the consequences of humanity's impact on ocean ecosystems is already enormous and only likely to get worse in the forseeable future. We are in the midst of likely the first mass extinction even in history caused by one species. The fact that some species will almost certainly survive us isn't really all that much comfort.


Yes, and I must stress that I agree. It is an enormous tragedy that we allow a frankly comically small percentage of the world economy to demolish the world's biggest habitat.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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