NationStates

Saiwania wrote:I would also recommend giving Taiwan nukes, to give China its own missile crisis. If they back off from all future expansionism, an agreement can be had to let it be that Taiwan won't be nuclear armed. But so long as China wants to invade, Taiwan must be able to nuke China in retaliation if it has to come to that.

Definitely disagree. The international community (especially the US) should leave the PRC + RoC alone. Let them sort out their own civil war; the first step to finishing the civil war is for the RoC to stop claiming all of mainland China + Mongolia + other parts of Asia and to rename itself as "Taiwan". Then perhaps, the PRC won't want to annex Taiwan.

FutureAmerica wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:Taiwan is a part of China. I hope for peaceful reunification.

The problem here is the USA, they are trying to divide the Chinese people and make them fight with each other. You only have to look at a world map and ask the real question here... what is America, a North American country, doing an entire giant ocean away in Asia?

At the end of the day, the PRC is minding its own business. Other countries are trying to encroach. But times have changed, this isn’t the 1800s anymore. I think that’s what many governments have to understand.

China is also trying to divide the US and create division just like Russia is doing. The PRC is not minding its own business and is trying to influence politics around the World. You are blind if you don't see this.

ofc the PRC is influencing politics around the world, everyone knows that. but it is also to important to note that for the last 70+ years America has had a unilateral influence on not just global politics but global (primarily Western) culture, technology and society around the world.

Gouverne wrote:

Saiwania wrote:I would also recommend giving Taiwan nukes, to give China its own missile crisis. If they back off from all future expansionism, an agreement can be had to let it be that Taiwan won't be nuclear armed. But so long as China wants to invade, Taiwan must be able to nuke China in retaliation if it has to come to that.

Definitely disagree. The international community (especially the US) should leave the PRC + RoC alone. Let them sort out their own civil war; the first step to finishing the civil war is for the RoC to stop claiming all of mainland China + Mongolia + other parts of Asia and to rename itself as "Taiwan". Then perhaps, the PRC won't want to annex Taiwan.

Uhhh actually that'll make China want to invade *more*. That's the main reason Taiwan hasn't, you know, done that.

Kubra wrote:

Gouverne wrote:
Definitely disagree. The international community (especially the US) should leave the PRC + RoC alone. Let them sort out their own civil war; the first step to finishing the civil war is for the RoC to stop claiming all of mainland China + Mongolia + other parts of Asia and to rename itself as "Taiwan". Then perhaps, the PRC won't want to annex Taiwan.

Uhhh actually that'll make China want to invade *more*. That's the main reason Taiwan hasn't, you know, done that.

or there's the peaceful reunification option - but until a post-Xi era comes, I doubt that'll be a popular decision in Taiwan

Infected Mushroom wrote:Taiwan is a part of China. I hope for peaceful reunification.

The problem here is the USA, they are trying to divide the Chinese people and make them fight with each other. You only have to look at a world map and ask the real question here... what is America, a North American country, doing an entire giant ocean away in Asia?

At the end of the day, the PRC is minding its own business. Other countries are trying to encroach. But times have changed, this isn’t the 1800s anymore. I think that’s what many governments have to understand.

Taiwan has not been effectively united with China for much of its history. Usually it has served as a refuge for Chinese people who detest the central government. I don't think unification would ever happen peacefully.

The best solution to the current predicament of the Taiwanese Province would be for it to become a special autonomous region of the People's Republic of China. There is no real chance for it to ever reconquer China, and America's power is in decline (which is for the better, given their foreign policy in the past).

At this point, Taiwan's going to return to the Chinese motherland: the only question is whether it wants to be a special autonomous region along the lines of Macau or if it wants to be integrated as an ordinary province. The only situation in which Taiwan maintains its sovereignty in the long term would likely involve a war, which would likely suck for humanity as a whole.

Luziyca wrote:The best solution to the current predicament of the Taiwanese Province would be for it to become a special autonomous region of the People's Republic of China. There is no real chance for it to ever reconquer China, and America's power is in decline (which is for the better, given their foreign policy in the past).

At this point, Taiwan's going to return to the Chinese motherland: the only question is whether it wants to be a special autonomous region along the lines of Macau or if it wants to be integrated as an ordinary province. The only situation in which Taiwan maintains its sovereignty in the long term would likely involve a war, which would likely suck for humanity as a whole.

After a look at what is happening in Hong Kong, I can't see Taiwan going for that. And I do think the question will ultimately result in war.

lol the US would not do shit if China took over Taiwan. Pax Americana died like 20 years ago.

Ethel mermania wrote:

Luziyca wrote:The best solution to the current predicament of the Taiwanese Province would be for it to become a special autonomous region of the People's Republic of China. There is no real chance for it to ever reconquer China, and America's power is in decline (which is for the better, given their foreign policy in the past).

At this point, Taiwan's going to return to the Chinese motherland: the only question is whether it wants to be a special autonomous region along the lines of Macau or if it wants to be integrated as an ordinary province. The only situation in which Taiwan maintains its sovereignty in the long term would likely involve a war, which would likely suck for humanity as a whole.

After a look at what is happening in Hong Kong, I can't see Taiwan going for that. And I do think the question will ultimately result in war.

When Taiwan gets invaded, I do not really see the Chinese government giving the Taiwanese meaningful autonomy: in the best case scenario, their autonomy would be like the Tibetan Autonomous Region, the Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region, the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, et cetera.

Becoming a special autonomous region and reunifying peacefully would likely give the Taiwanese people better odds of their current way of life surviving Chinese rule than China invading Taiwan and annexing it.

Luziyca wrote:

Ethel mermania wrote:After a look at what is happening in Hong Kong, I can't see Taiwan going for that. And I do think the question will ultimately result in war.

When Taiwan gets invaded, I do not really see the Chinese government giving the Taiwanese meaningful autonomy: in the best case scenario, their autonomy would be like the Tibetan Autonomous Region, the Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region, the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, et cetera.

Becoming a special autonomous region and reunifying peacefully would likely give the Taiwanese people better odds of their current way of life surviving Chinese rule than China invading Taiwan and annexing it.

I dont disagree, I just think it will turn into a very bloody war before Taiwan submits to the PRC. If I were Taiwanese I would be ok with that.

Ethel mermania wrote:

Luziyca wrote:When Taiwan gets invaded, I do not really see the Chinese government giving the Taiwanese meaningful autonomy: in the best case scenario, their autonomy would be like the Tibetan Autonomous Region, the Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region, the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, et cetera.

Becoming a special autonomous region and reunifying peacefully would likely give the Taiwanese people better odds of their current way of life surviving Chinese rule than China invading Taiwan and annexing it.

I dont disagree, I just think it will turn into a very bloody war before Taiwan submits to the PRC. If I were Taiwanese I would be ok with that.

I don't think Taiwan would really put up much of a fight anyways. it's in their interest to work out a deal.

Unless we put American Nukes aimed at Red China they can take Taiwan when they please. We should have handled China during the Civil War or the Massacre in the 80s. Hell China attacked UN forces in Korea, we could have handled them then. But we didn't.
Now we have China on the Rise and America never climax. The only solution is to get our crap together and defeat them economically and/or militarily.
Australia, South Korea, India, Japan, Tiwan, and Possibly the UK are onboard to handle China. If up to me we would invade asap

Christian Confederation wrote:Unless we put American Nukes aimed at Red China they can take Taiwan when they please. We should have handled China during the Civil War or the Massacre in the 80s. Hell China attacked UN forces in Korea, we could have handled them then. But we didn't.
Now we have China on the Rise and America never climax. The only solution is to get our crap together and defeat them economically and/or militarily.
Australia, South Korea, India, Japan, Tiwan, and Possibly the UK are onboard to handle China. If up to me we would invade asap

Are you really willing to start World War III over Taiwan

Bear Stearns wrote:

Christian Confederation wrote:Unless we put American Nukes aimed at Red China they can take Taiwan when they please. We should have handled China during the Civil War or the Massacre in the 80s. Hell China attacked UN forces in Korea, we could have handled them then. But we didn't.
Now we have China on the Rise and America never climax. The only solution is to get our crap together and defeat them economically and/or militarily.
Australia, South Korea, India, Japan, Tiwan, and Possibly the UK are onboard to handle China. If up to me we would invade asap

Are you really willing to start World War III over Taiwan

End of the day, yes.

But ask me again when it becomes a reality.

Whether done forcibly by a conflict or 'willingly' via reunification, the end result would be the same.

The PRC does not seem to respect agreed-upon autonomy in the end, as can be seen with Hong Kong.

Christian Confederation wrote:Unless we put American Nukes aimed at Red China they can take Taiwan when they please. We should have handled China during the Civil War or the Massacre in the 80s. Hell China attacked UN forces in Korea, we could have handled them then. But we didn't.
Now we have China on the Rise and America never climax. The only solution is to get our crap together and defeat them economically and/or militarily.
Australia, South Korea, India, Japan, Tiwan, and Possibly the UK are onboard to handle China. If up to me we would invade asap

Okay General MacArthur. Are you willing to go through a nuclear holocaust for that?

Stellar Colonies wrote:Whether done forcibly by a conflict or 'willingly' via reunification, the end result would be the same.

The PRC does not seem to respect agreed-upon autonomy in the end, as can be seen with Hong Kong.

I would argue that for the Taiwanese, being a special administrative region like Macau or Hong Kong would be a much preferable alternative than, at best, having the same level of autonomy as Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, et. al., given from what I gather, those places don't have a lot of autonomy compared to Hong Kong and Macau.

While there is no doubt their autonomy will get eroded, it'd be better for the Taiwanese to be a special administrative region given that they would not be under the complete boot of the Chinese Communist Party, and wouldn't endure the full brunt of their internal policies (which I find reprehensible, despite my support for Chinese foreign policy). Being an autonomous region like Tibet or being an ordinary province will provide no such guarantees in the first place, which would be likely to occur should the Province of Taiwan return to central control as a result of war.

Luziyca wrote:

Stellar Colonies wrote:Whether done forcibly by a conflict or 'willingly' via reunification, the end result would be the same.

The PRC does not seem to respect agreed-upon autonomy in the end, as can be seen with Hong Kong.

I would argue that for the Taiwanese, being a special administrative region like Macau or Hong Kong would be a much preferable alternative than, at best, having the same level of autonomy as Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, et. al., given from what I gather, those places don't have a lot of autonomy compared to Hong Kong and Macau.

Of course a better alternative to being thralls of the Peking slaver regime is complete independence.

Luziyca wrote:

Stellar Colonies wrote:Whether done forcibly by a conflict or 'willingly' via reunification, the end result would be the same.

The PRC does not seem to respect agreed-upon autonomy in the end, as can be seen with Hong Kong.

I would argue that for the Taiwanese, being a special administrative region like Macau or Hong Kong would be a much preferable alternative than, at best, having the same level of autonomy as Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, et. al., given from what I gather, those places don't have a lot of autonomy compared to Hong Kong and Macau.

While there is no doubt their autonomy will get eroded, it'd be better for the Taiwanese to be a special administrative region given that they would not be under the complete boot of the Chinese Communist Party, and wouldn't endure the full brunt of their internal policies (which I find reprehensible, despite my support for Chinese foreign policy). Being an autonomous region like Tibet or being an ordinary province will provide no such guarantees in the first place, which would be likely to occur should the Province of Taiwan return to central control as a result of war.

Much like Hong Kong, either way they will be under the revenge seeking boot of the PRC. THe only question is how many are going to die before the PRC gets there.

Time for the US to step aside.

Their empire is over. China knows well what imperialism is like; they've been victims of it for the past several hundred years. That's why they've mastered it.

Much like how the US surpassed the British Empire despite them being subservient to Britain, China will surpass the US despite previously being subservient to the West. It's why most of the West tried to keep China divided for so long. The largest country on Earth with the most productive population is too much of a threat to Western interests.

The PRC has its own totalitarian and internal problems that are a separate topic. But there's no doubt that China's won the foreign policy long-game that started with Jiang Zemin. Slow and steady wins the race. Don't use military pressure but diplomatic and economic pressure. Don't be ideological like the USSR and provide just enough services to keep people complacent. Control how the world views you and call the bluffs of the UN and US because nobody wants war. Etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US decolonizes in the next few decades aka pulls its military bases and steps aside from world politics.

Enjuku wrote:Time for the US to step aside.

Their empire is over. China knows well what imperialism is like; they've been victims of it for the past several hundred years. That's why they've mastered it.

Much like how the US surpassed the British Empire despite them being subservient to Britain, China will surpass the US despite previously being subservient to the West. It's why most of the West tried to keep China divided for so long. The largest country on Earth with the most productive population is too much of a threat to Western interests.

The PRC has its own totalitarian and internal problems that are a separate topic. But there's no doubt that China's won the foreign policy long-game that started with Jiang Zemin. Slow and steady wins the race. Don't use military pressure but diplomatic and economic pressure. Don't be ideological like the USSR and provide just enough services to keep people complacent. Control how the world views you and call the bluffs of the UN and US because nobody wants war. Etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US decolonizes in the next few decades aka pulls its military bases and steps aside from world politics.

And we'll all be completely fucked for it.

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:And we'll all be completely fucked for it.

That all depends on who the next superpower is.

US global hegemony only lasted about two decades (~1991 to 2008). During that time, only minor threats like North Korea or Iraq and Iran really flexed at US strength. Yet it was only US culture that was exported around the world, not so much US political ideology. There was an absence of Russian-style communism being promoted, and countries in the US sphere of influence just kinda went one way or the other in how they run their governments and, by extension, treat their people.

In China's case, the countries that try to fill the US's shoes will make all the difference for how the rest of the world takes being in the SInosphere. Will it be a united Europe? Neosocialist like Bolivia or Venezuela? Nationalists like Modhi in India or Bolsenaro in Brazil? We'll see from there what the next political alternative is.

Enjuku wrote:

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:And we'll all be completely fucked for it.

That all depends on who the next superpower is.

US global hegemony only lasted about two decades (~1991 to 2008). During that time, only minor threats like North Korea or Iraq and Iran really flexed at US strength. Yet it was only US culture that was exported around the world, not so much US political ideology. There was an absence of Russian-style communism being promoted, and countries in the US sphere of influence just kinda went one way or the other in how they run their governments and, by extension, treat their people.

In China's case, the countries that try to fill the US's shoes will make all the difference for how the rest of the world takes being in the SInosphere. Will it be a united Europe? Neosocialist like Bolivia or Venezuela? Nationalists like Modhi in India or Bolsenaro in Brazil? We'll see from there what the next political alternative is.

The idea that somebody else will take up the American task of opposing Peking is ludicrous. Half these actors you've listed are either already friends with Chairman Xi, is infected by China-kenners in important circles of govt or are neoliberals who still believe free trade will free PRC. So if America goes all in on "America First" everybody else will just kowtow to the new hegemon. A hegemon who's already promised that he'll hunt down and murder even the foreigners saying bad things about his regime.

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:The idea that somebody else will take up the American task of opposing Peking is ludicrous. Half these actors you've listed are either already friends with Chairman Xi, is infected by China-kenners in important circles of govt or are neoliberals who still believe free trade will free PRC. So if America goes all in on "America First" everybody else will just kowtow to the new hegemon. A hegemon who's already promised that he'll hunt down and murder even the foreigners saying bad things about his regime.

Opposing China and being an alternative to China are two different things.

Also "Peking" and "kowtow" makes it sound like you're thinking of a China from 100 years ago lol

Enjuku wrote:

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:The idea that somebody else will take up the American task of opposing Peking is ludicrous. Half these actors you've listed are either already friends with Chairman Xi, is infected by China-kenners in important circles of govt or are neoliberals who still believe free trade will free PRC. So if America goes all in on "America First" everybody else will just kowtow to the new hegemon. A hegemon who's already promised that he'll hunt down and murder even the foreigners saying bad things about his regime.

Opposing China and being an alternative to China are two different things.

Also "Peking" and "kowtow" makes it sound like you're thinking of a China from 100 years ago lol

What do you think being an alternative to PRC'ian hegemony means? It should be a no brainer that it inevitably leads to opposing the PRC.