Arkansas Passes Law Allowing Doctors to refuse LGBT Patients

[The Black Forrest]

If Fore's argument held any water, marginalized communities wouldn't have disproportionately high unemployment rates, nor would we have serious issues of said communities being disproportionately impacted by health problems, including the ongoing covid pandemic.

Minority communities have those things because they'd rather play victim cards and blame everyone else for their problems. As a native american male, I have the shortest average lifespan. Is it because "muh racism"? No, It's because we're by far the mostly like to suffer from health problems ranging from diabetes to drug and alcohol addiction. Taking the tiniest bit of responsibility tends to improve your life. We get free, or heavily discounted college tuition. But have the lowest level of degree attainment. Why? Because too many would rather play victim than take advantage of what's offered.

Ah. I was wondering when the “victim card” was going to get trotted out. Boring!

[The Emerald Legion]

You do realize not all doctors swear the hippocratic oath right?

No, they sign the Geneva Declaration instead, which as I have shown repeatedly includes a line about not discriminating against your patients.

Not all doctors do that either. Some schools practice that. Others do the hippocratic oath, and some do nothing at all.

[Odreria]

If Fore's argument held any water, marginalized communities wouldn't have disproportionately high unemployment rates, nor would we have serious issues of said communities being disproportionately impacted by health problems, including the ongoing covid pandemic.

Minority communities have those things because they'd rather play victim cards and blame everyone else for their problems. As a native american male, I have the shortest average lifespan. Is it because "muh racism"? No, It's because we're by far the mostly like to suffer from health problems ranging from diabetes to drug and alcohol addiction. Taking the tiniest bit of responsibility tends to improve your life. We get free, or heavily discounted college tuition. But have the lowest level of degree attainment. Why? Because too many would rather play victim than take advantage of what's offered.

Please say something that makes sense, anything.

[The Black Forrest]

What’s funny is when you suggest the person should find another job. This of course is not fair.

Ruin a career where hundreds if not thousands of people could be helped vs. One person go somewhere else one time. Yep, totally comparable.

It’s almost like there aren’t anymore doctors.

If you can’t do the job; you ruined your own career.

[San Lumen]

So that scenario i laid out would be perfectly acceptable to you? Their business their rules?

What business have the right to refuse someone for any reason?

I told you that's not going to happen in this day and age, I don't take part in fantasies. And businesses that aren't open to the public, and don't provide essential services. Country clubs for example. Or similar groups that require a membership.

Why wouldnt it happen? I doubt think even a country club could have a whites only policy.

[The Republic of Fore]

Minority communities have those things because they'd rather play victim cards and blame everyone else for their problems. As a native american male, I have the shortest average lifespan. Is it because "muh racism"? No, It's because we're by far the mostly like to suffer from health problems ranging from diabetes to drug and alcohol addiction. Taking the tiniest bit of responsibility tends to improve your life. We get free, or heavily discounted college tuition. But have the lowest level of degree attainment. Why? Because too many would rather play victim than take advantage of what's offered.

Please say something that makes sense, anything.

If you're not capable of understanding it that's your problem. Alaskan Natives get thousands a month from the oil companies yet are still pretty much all poor. Maybe, just maybe that's not because of "muh racism". Maybe It's got something to do with them pissing it away on big trucks and fancy boats.

[Odreria]

So that scenario i laid out would be perfectly acceptable to you? Their business their rules?

What business have the right to refuse someone for any reason?

I told you that's not going to happen in this day and age, I don't take part in fantasies. And businesses that aren't open to the public, and don't provide essential services. Country clubs for example. Or similar groups that require a membership.

Crying about how much you want segregated country clubs isn't even good bait, it's just pathetic.

[Esalia]

What’s funny is when you suggest the person should find another job. This of course is not fair.

Ruin a career where hundreds if not thousands of people could be helped vs. One person go somewhere else one time. Yep, totally comparable.

I'm sure with how much you harp on about how trans people who are denied healthcare should just "go somewhere else" that those "hundreds if not thousands" could simply go to another doctor.

[Kilobugya]

1. It is 100% tantrum throwing to insist you have to be treated by one exact doctor when nothing stops you from going somewhere else. It's not a human right to force me to help you, and anyone who claims it is shouldn't be taken seriously.

Nothing stops me except that I might not have the time or money to do it. And that forcing me to go further away (and spend more time looking for someone accepting me) quickly adds up to an enormous cost in time and money when it's done in a systematic or semi-systematic way. Not being discriminated is, black on white, Human Rights number #1. I gave you the quote: « All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights ». It is violating Human Right #1 to discriminate.

2. There's no reason it needs to change. Just be served by someone else. Especially when as I've already said, you can't prove why you were refused.

Again, being served by "someone else" is not always possible, and never an acceptable solution. Not being able to prove the reason is a completely different issue. But doctors shouldn't be able to refuse patient except for very few reasons (like the patient being aggressive/threatening) and it's up to the doctor to prove it was that situation.

3. Demanding someone serve you when there's no reason you can't go somewhere else is.

You're moving the goalpost, from "there should be no ethical rules at all" to "there should be ethical rules but no anti-discrimination ones". Well too bad for you, doctors decided otherwise, and made non-discrimination a fundamental part of their ethics - and were very right to do so.

4. And if a child is squealing but all my friends get to! When their parent won't let them jump off a railroad bridge into a fast moving river we shouldn't praise them for wanting to be an idiot. Besides, try and prove you were refused entry for being black. You can't.

So you just admitted that the child would be right to protest against discrimination. If it's discrimination, the child would right to say "but all my friends get to" and should be praised for it. If it's something silly/dangerous, the child should be explained why it's the case. Sure if I go ask a doctor for a drug that's harmful to my condition the doctor shouldn't prescribe it. But that's not what we are speaking about.

[Frokolia]

Jesus Christ, how far is this going to go?

was wondering the same. everything got toxic real quick

[Cultural Posadism]

If Fore's argument held any water, marginalized communities wouldn't have disproportionately high unemployment rates, nor would we have serious issues of said communities being disproportionately impacted by health problems, including the ongoing covid pandemic.

Minority communities have those things because they'd rather play victim cards and blame everyone else for their problems.

Ah, yes, widespread inequality is totally explained by a widespread attitude problem that's wholly unique to those communites. Nothing to do with decades upon decades of evidence of systemic discrimination. Non-white and LGBT+ people just spontaneously and collectively, for no good reason, decided to be disproportionately poor, sick and unemployed because they get off on being victims.

I can forgive being sincerely ignorant, but your claim here reeks of a lack of curiosity, which is far worse.

[The Republic of Fore]

I told you that's not going to happen in this day and age, I don't take part in fantasies. And businesses that aren't open to the public, and don't provide essential services. Country clubs for example. Or similar groups that require a membership.

Why wouldnt it happen? I doubt think even a country club could have a whites only policy.

Because the person would lose there job and the room would be given to the couple anyway. It amazes me the talent some people have on this site for failing to read a full post. And of course not, but if you bothered to read my posts properly you'd know I've repeatedly said you don't have to openly say "whites only" to be whites only. Say you ban people who listen to rap music. That skews heavily towards a certain age group, and skin color without being overt enough that it would get you punished. Because I think the average person wouldn't at all be shocked by someone who sips bottles of wine at 50 grand a pop at the Barrington country club not liking rap.

[San Lumen]

Why wouldnt it happen? I doubt think even a country club could have a whites only policy.

Because the person would lose there job and the room would be given to the couple anyway. It amazes me the talent some people have on this site for failing to read a full post. And of course not, but if you bothered to read my posts properly you'd know I've repeatedly said you don't have to openly say "whites only" to be whites only. Say you ban people who listen to rap music. That skews heavily towards a certain age group, and skin color without being overt enough that it would get you punished. Because I think the average person wouldn't at all be shocked by someone who sips bottles of wine at 50 grand a pop at the Barrington country club not liking rap.

What if that is the hotel policy? Their business their rules?

[Saint Arsenio]

Jesus Christ, how far is this going to go?

was wondering the same. everything got toxic real quick

Oh no, I was talking about the laws.

[Ifreann]

I don't know if you're aware of this, it's a pretty obscure fact, but doctors sometimes work in places other than the emergency room

And rather more when they are not. Thus my use of the word "probably".

People who need those things are not okay.

Which takes additional time. Time in which you are not being treated. Which is obviously not a desirable state of affairs.

A doctor's feelings towards me shouldn't matter. If a doctor's feelings are impacting the quality of care they offer some or all patients then they should probably not be a doctor.

---

Codes of professional ethics usually are law, or close enough. You can't practice medicine without a license, and you'll lose your license if you go about violating medical ethics.

1. I just used a common example.
2. If you're not an emergency, then you're okay enough to seek care elsewhere.

Which means more time before you get treatment. Which is bad. You get that, right?

3. Sure they are, if they're lying junkies. You really think people won't lie to get out of work or feed a drug habit?

A drug addiction is a serious medical problem, and sometimes the best treatment is to give the patient a carefully controlled dose of the drug they are addicted to in a safe setting. Going cold turkey from some drugs can be fatal.

4. Too bad, so sad. You can still go somewhere else.

You can, but having to go somewhere else is bad.

5. Everyone is impacted by their feelings towards people, being a doctor doesn't make you a robot.

I very specifically talked about their feelings impacting the quality of care they offer patients.

6.Codes of ethics are easy to skirt. As I've said, go ahead and prove I refused to serve you because you're trans. All I have to do is prove I don't accept your insurance. Congratulations, you just wasted thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Seems like it would actually be very easy to prove you're bullshitting about not accepting someone's insurance, as there would be records of which insurance you have accepted before. But that's beside the point. You said that codes of ethics aren't the law. As I've said and as you have not disputed, they are, or close enough. Laws that you think you can get away with breaking are still laws, which you will discover if you don't get away with breaking them.

[The Emerald Legion]

To talk about the actual issue, I could definitely see a case for allowing doctors to not perform procedures they hold morally objectionable. But not to simply carte blanche deny service all together. We're not going to force doctors to resort to leeches and humors just because a patient is an oddball who wants his bile balanced with his snot. Likewise, if a doctor thinks a certain procedure isn't going to help their patient, they shouldn't be forced to do it.

That being said, we have to look at the issue with the Sandy beach problem in mind. If one person goes to the beach, and scoops up a cup of sand, no big deal. If everyone goes to the same beach and scoops up a cup of sand, it's a big deal.

So, any change to allow doctors to opt out in such manner must take into account the possibility of a facilities entire staff sharing their objections and leading to a defacto denial of service.

[Cultural Posadism]

1. I just used a common example.
2. If you're not an emergency, then you're okay enough to seek care elsewhere.

Which means more time before you get treatment. Which is bad. You get that, right?

3. Sure they are, if they're lying junkies. You really think people won't lie to get out of work or feed a drug habit?

A drug addiction is a serious medical problem, and sometimes the best treatment is to give the patient a carefully controlled dose of the drug they are addicted to in a safe setting. Going cold turkey from some drugs can be fatal.

4. Too bad, so sad. You can still go somewhere else.

You can, but having to go somewhere else is bad.

5. Everyone is impacted by their feelings towards people, being a doctor doesn't make you a robot.

I very specifically talked about their feelings impacting the quality of care they offer patients.

6.Codes of ethics are easy to skirt. As I've said, go ahead and prove I refused to serve you because you're trans. All I have to do is prove I don't accept your insurance. Congratulations, you just wasted thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Seems like it would actually be very easy to prove you're bullshitting about not accepting someone's insurance, as there would be records of which insurance you have accepted before. But that's beside the point. You said that codes of ethics aren't the law. As I've said and as you have not disputed, they are, or close enough. Laws that you think you can get away with breaking are still laws, which you will discover if you don't get away with breaking them.

I don't want to put on my amateur therapist hat, but it does catch my attention how Fore openly acknowledges that, as a Native American man, he disproportionately faces certain problems, yet is fanatically committed to not even entertaining the idea of systemic discrimination and also claiming that discrimination is fine actually. It sounds like ideological self-flagellation, which is sad. Right-wing ideology has made him unwilling to even think about himself as a Native American man with any meaningful depth. Instead, it's just dogmatic self-loathing.

[Suriyanakhon]

Seems like it would actually be very easy to prove you're bullshitting about not accepting someone's insurance, as there would be records of which insurance you have accepted before. But that's beside the point. You said that codes of ethics aren't the law. As I've said and as you have not disputed, they are, or close enough. Laws that you think you can get away with breaking are still laws, which you will discover if you don't get away with breaking them.

Apparently not content to violate medical ethics, Fore's hypothetical doctor chose to add perjury to the list of laws he doesn't think he should have to adhere to.

[Frokolia]

was wondering the same. everything got toxic real quick

Oh no, I was talking about the laws.

oh. well then i really don't know

[Atheris]

Fucking stupid. Absolutely braindead by Arkansas.

[Octadore]

Doctors can refuse anyone,they have been able to refuse anyone since there has been doctors.It's called private healthcare

Thanks for reminding me that Americans have a generally fucked view of how healthcare works.

Americans have a generally terrible view of how everything works. If the big guys don't make money its not worth it to them. And if it's suddenly "worth it" it might just be a publicity stunt. If you're not rich and/or Christian sorry, but the big wigs don't wanna care.

[Grenartia]

Minority communities have those things because they'd rather play victim cards and blame everyone else for their problems.

Ah. I was wondering when the “victim card” was going to get trotted out. Boring!

People who unironically accuse entire groups of "playing the victim card" (honestly, that should be a card unto itself) should never be taken seriously from the instant they say it unless or until they retract it.

As a native american male, I have the shortest average lifespan. Is it because "muh racism"? No, It's because we're by far the mostly like to suffer from health problems ranging from diabetes to drug and alcohol addiction.

Has it ever occurred to you to ask why that is?

Taking the tiniest bit of responsibility tends to improve your life.

Not really, and its pretty gaslighty to tell people they have to "take responsibility" for the bad shit other people do to them.

We get free, or heavily discounted college tuition. But have the lowest level of degree attainment. Why? Because too many would rather play victim than take advantage of what's offered.

God, what fantasy world do you live in where "playing the victim" is a thing large numbers of minorities actually do?

[The Capitalist States of Avalon]

Doctors are allowed to turn away patients for any reason. I have had multiple back surgeries, and my first surgeon eventually turned me away because I had become untreatable in his eyes, and that is their reserved right to do this. This practice happens all the time, and whatever the reason may be for turning a patient away, the doctor reserves the right to do so. (At least in many states, I am not fully sure on Arkansas).

[Vassenor]

Doctors are allowed to turn away patients for any reason. I have had multiple back surgeries, and my first surgeon eventually turned me away because I had become untreatable in his eyes, and that is their reserved right to do this. This practice happens all the time, and whatever the reason may be for turning a patient away, the doctor reserves the right to do so. (At least in many states, I am not fully sure on Arkansas).

There's a difference between "I don't think there's anything that can help you" and "I don't want to treat you because I think you're icky" though.

The latter is decidedly unethical.

[The New California Republic]

Doctors are allowed to turn away patients for any reason. I have had multiple back surgeries, and my first surgeon eventually turned me away because I had become untreatable in his eyes, and that is their reserved right to do this.

There's a world of difference between "any treatment I provide for you will be ineffective because the medical condition has progressed too much" and "Ew, you're trans/gay, go away."