Coronavirus Thread VI: Are We Nearly There Yet? (READ OP)

[Antipatros]

Doesn't have to be either or.

If you get vaccinated and then get a mild or asymptomatic infection, you will still enjoy the benefits of natural immunity, while reducing the risk of serious illness. Likewise, if you've already had an infection, you still get an additional benefit out of the vaccine.

I believe that health authorities are, for the most part, recommending that people who have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2 still get vaccinated.

From the CDC website:

I dont live in America and Im not interested in the position of the CDC. Actually, Im not interested also in the position of the Turkish "academicans",either. Im interested in the position of the doctors who really encounter patients with any diseases and can tell you their experience from first hand.

Well, I'd encourage you to talk to your doctor in that case. He can provide you guidance on these topics.

That's all I can tell you, really. I'm not an expert by any means.

[Page]

"I'll die eventually" has to be one of the laziest excuses for not protecting yourself.

Nah not really. For example if I were to get a terminal illness I would reject all forms of treatment to extend my life, as my time already has come.

I think everyone "protects themselves", people just have different ideas of what that means. For example, I spend a huge amount of time out in the sun without sunscreen because it makes me less depressed and I like being tan which improves my self-image and also indirectly makes me less depressed. The way I see it, as long as I keep a look out for irregular moles and go get them looked at immediately, my skin cancer chances are pretty slim but my chances of depression killing me are higher and more immediate.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Nah not really. For example if I were to get a terminal illness I would reject all forms of treatment to extend my life, as my time already has come.

Appendicitis could be terminal if left untreated.

Otoh since a large majority of the hospitals in the American South are now swamped by people who didn't vaccinate and now can't breathe for themselves I guess the risk of death from appendicitis down there has just gone up.

[Necroghastia]

Well no - it is a fair reason.
it is a horrible reason for endangering others though. Be that by not taking precautions against becoming a spreader of disease or not caring if one will take up a hospital bed someone else who does care about their survival might need.

Not, my soul, i was just educated on other principles when I was a child - that the human doesnt choose his fate and if something happens - it happens, its not job of the human to ask why.

Good lord, what a dumb take. If you were caught in a flood zone, would you not try to escape? Would you sit there twiddling your thumbs as you drowned, despite avenues being available to have stopped that?

If anything is the "job of the human" it is to take care of one another - and that includes taking care of oneself.

[Fartsniffage]

Well no - it is a fair reason.
it is a horrible reason for endangering others though. Be that by not taking precautions against becoming a spreader of disease or not caring if one will take up a hospital bed someone else who does care about their survival might need.

Not, my soul, i was just educated on other principles when I was a child - that the human doesnt choose his fate and if something happens - it happens, its not job of the human to ask why. If I die of corona (or something else) I hope that my family will take care of my wife and my child, if a relative of mine dies (of corona or something else) to take care of his children. Thats it.

God helps those who help themselves.

[Esalia]

"I'll die eventually" has to be one of the laziest excuses for not protecting yourself.

Nah not really. For example if I were to get a terminal illness I would reject all forms of treatment to extend my life, as my time already has come.

Well there you're not "protecting yourself" because there's no out. Your end point from the illness is death or death but sooner and the choice basically comes down to personal preference.

When we're talking vaccinations against covid (or any illness), the end point isn't "death or death". It's "have a far higher risk of death or have a far lower risk of death (potentially to the point where it's completely negligible)". "I'm gonna die anyway, no point protecting myself" is just pure laziness.

[Turk Cumhuriyeti]

Not, my soul, i was just educated on other principles when I was a child - that the human doesnt choose his fate and if something happens - it happens, its not job of the human to ask why. If I die of corona (or something else) I hope that my family will take care of my wife and my child, if a relative of mine dies (of corona or something else) to take care of his children. Thats it.

God helps those who help themselves.

Thats true. The question is who really wants to help himself. And I dont oppose the vaccination actually. Everybody should be free to decide.

[The Alma Mater]

Well no - it is a fair reason.
it is a horrible reason for endangering others though. Be that by not taking precautions against becoming a spreader of disease or not caring if one will take up a hospital bed someone else who does care about their survival might need.

Not, my soul, i was just educated on other principles when I was a child - that the human doesnt choose his fate and if something happens - it happens, its not job of the human to ask why. If I die of corona (or something else) I hope that my family will take care of my wife and my child, if a relative of mine dies (of corona or something else) to take care of his children. Thats it.

Which is fine and dandy, but does not give you a free pass to be health risk to others.

[Turk Cumhuriyeti]

Not, my soul, i was just educated on other principles when I was a child - that the human doesnt choose his fate and if something happens - it happens, its not job of the human to ask why. If I die of corona (or something else) I hope that my family will take care of my wife and my child, if a relative of mine dies (of corona or something else) to take care of his children. Thats it.

Which is fine and dandy, but does not give you a free pass to be health risk to others.

In any case I will not pose a risk fo you as I live in Ankara and you probably live somewhers else.

[The Alma Mater]

Which is fine and dandy, but does not give you a free pass to be health risk to others.

In any case I will not pose a riskbfornyou as I live in Ankara and younprobablynlive somewhers else.

It may surprise you to learn that some people can actually care about other humans who are not themselves.
In fact,we consider people who can NOT do that to be mentally ill.

[Stellar Colonies]

California lawmakers grapple with whether to impose a statewide COVID-19 vaccination mandate (LA Times)

SACRAMENTO — After ceding power to Gov. Gavin Newsom throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, state lawmakers are now considering one of the most politically challenging government mandates yet: requiring Californians to show proof of vaccination to enter many indoor business establishments and forcing workers to get vaccinated or regularly tested.
Democratic legislators leading the conversation at the state Capitol believe mandates provide an opportunity to improve vaccination rates and help lessen the effects of the Delta variant spreading through California.

But the proposal, which is still in draft form and has not been introduced in a bill, requires weighing serious considerations such as enforcement, costs, implementation, the political will of the state Legislature and how such a sweeping statewide mandate could help or hurt Newsom’s chances of beating back a possible recall.

“There’s literally nothing more personal than taking the vaccine shot, so it’s going to elicit a reaction, no matter what,” said Robin Swanson, a Democratic political consultant. “I think that the Legislature doing this takes a little bit of heat off of the governor, but at the end of the day, the buck is always going to stop with the governor’s office.”

Since the original stay-at-home order was implemented last year, the governor has largely guided the state’s response to the pandemic and implemented most statewide business restrictions, mask mandates and other rules through executive order or the California Department of Public Health. The state has already ordered that healthcare workers must be fully vaccinated and required school employees and state workers to get vaccinated or submit to regular COVID-19 tests.

For the time being, Newsom and his aides are quietly watching and providing technical assistance as Assemblywoman Buffy Wicks (D-Oakland) and a cohort of her Democratic colleagues in the state Senate and Assembly talk with labor, business and other interests about a possible vaccination mandate, according to an administration official who asked for anonymity to speak about the matter.

Hospitalizations for COVID-19 continue to rise in California

Newsom’s office has not taken a position on the idea.

“We are still not sure if we are going to introduce legislation at the end of session or in January,” Wicks said in an interview Thursday. “There are a lot of conversations around what is the right policy.”

Whether such legislation is introduced and passes or not, the discussion about vaccination mandates is helping to inform Newsom and his team as they work to respond to the rapidly changing COVID-19 landscape, the administration official said.

With just two weeks left before the Legislature adjourns for the year, debate over the proposal threatens to swallow the end of session in Sacramento and potentially prevent lawmakers from addressing other important issues.

Leaked unofficial drafts of the bill language had already inspired criticism on Wednesday and brought back memories of years previous, when protesters swarmed the state Capitol in opposition to vaccine bills and one threw a menstrual cup on the Senate floor. Wicks said Thursday that leaked draft language “isn’t how we normally do policy making.”

California vaccine bills signed by Newsom as protesters are arrested at Capitol
(from a couple years ago)

“I did warn Assemblywoman Wicks that anytime you talk about vaccines, people take notice,” said Sen. Richard Pan (D-Sacramento), whose name appears as a co-author on Wicks’ draft proposal and who introduced a series of bills throughout his legislative career to strengthen vaccination requirements for schools that made him a routine target of anti-vaccine protesters.

Pan, a pediatrician, said lawmakers are exploring various measures to slow the spread of COVID-19 and improve vaccination rates.

Anti-vaccine activist assaults California vaccine law author, police say
(from a couple years ago)

He said passing a vaccine bill this late in the legislative session is “a heavy lift,” but that there is enough uncertainty about what will happen in the coming months to potentially reach a consensus to act now. Lawmakers wrap up their session on Sept. 10. Newsom faces a recall election on Sept. 14.

“We are going to be out until January and you look at the fact that kids are in school and winter is coming,” Pan said. “We are hearing from folks that it would be helpful for the state to create rules and have guidance. At this point, it’s an ongoing discussion on whether it’s best to codify these things.”

Critics of vaccination mandates have already begun launching their opposition, which comes shortly after protests at the state Capitol against California’s requirement that healthcare workers be vaccinated.

“There will be an extremely large pushback,” said Melissa Floyd of Immunity Education Group, which opposes mandates.

Floyd said one aspect that lawmakers will have to consider is mandating a vaccine with boosters.

“How many boosters will you need, how often?” Floyd said. “There will never be a time when it’s sufficient. How do you monitor all this, and how can you assume everyone vaccinated has immunity?”

The Times obtained a draft of AB 455, which was dated Thursday. That version calls for anyone entering a bar, restaurant, gym, hotel, event center or sports arena to show proof that he or she is fully vaccinated.

It also calls for all employees, job applicants and independent contractors to show proof that they are fully vaccinated or take a weekly COVID-19 test with proof of a negative result. The tests would be paid for by the employee’s existing health insurance or through federal, state and local funds, according to the draft.

Employers would be required to provide an additional 24 hours of sick leave for workers to go to vaccine appointments, or if they experience symptoms related to the shot.

Those who are too young to be vaccinated or a person with a valid medical reason would be exempt from the provisions, according to the draft language. The California Department of Public Health would be tasked with determining by Nov. 1 how to enforce the requirements.

The draft bill is listed as an urgency measure, which would allow it to take effect immediately if passed by two-thirds of lawmakers and signed by the governor.

Under Wicks’ plan, an Assembly bill currently in the state Senate would need to be amended with the language to require a vaccination mandate.

Sources in the Legislature noted that Senate leadership has said they would allow the bill to be introduced only if the governor, Senate Pro Tem Toni Atkins (D-San Diego) and Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon (D-Lakewood) reach an agreement on the legislation first, it receives the support of labor unions and the California Chamber of Commerce, and if Wicks confirms there are enough “yes” votes from two-thirds of the lawmakers in each house.

At the Capitol, many tough issues become law only with the backing of labor or business, and winning over both interests could be a tall order for Democrats.

Labor unions in California are concerned about the possibility that workers could be responsible for paying for weekly COVID-19 tests if they remain unvaccinated and some have argued that such a workplace mandate should be subject to collective bargaining.

“We’ve been having conversations with Assemblymember Wicks and have seen the outlines of what she’s proposing,” said Steve Smith, a spokesman for the California Labor Federation. “There’s just a lot of questions that need to be answered before we have a uniform position throughout the labor movement in California because this could have vastly different effects on different segments of workers.”

Swanson warned that politicians shouldn’t look at opposition to vaccinations as falling cleanly within party lines or treat the issue as a political football.

A conversation about mandates was bound to happen sooner rather than later, she said, and though the timing of the potential legislation means it could be used as a tool to inspire voters who are opposed to mandates to support the recall, it’s an issue that could present challenges whenever it is addressed.

“There’s another election just around the corner in November of 2022,” Swanson said. “It’s not going to go away.”

[Great Algerstonia]

They better not install vaccine mandates for that. It is a terrible idea, and there are far worse infectious diseases out there.

[Antipatros]

Full FDA approval for the Pfizer vaccine definitely paves the way for mandates, if the authorities choose to go that way.

I personally think we should push ahead with mandates. That, or let these people face the consequences of their actions.

Medical insurers should price their plans accordingly. When it comes time to start triaging patients, they should be prioritised lower than people who were more responsible than them. Employers should be free to discriminate against them. Society should not be forced to bend over backwards in order to cater to these sorts of people.

[Vassenor]

They better not install vaccine mandates for that. It is a terrible idea, and there are far worse infectious diseases out there.

Appealing to worse problems to stop people from dealing with this imminent problem? Urgh.

[Kowani]

EU to reinstate covid travel measures for Americans

The European Union on Friday moved to reinstate COVID travel restrictions like quarantine and testing requirements for unvaccinated citizens of the United States and five other countries, two diplomats told Reuters.

EU countries started a procedure to remove the United States from a list of countries whose citizens can travel to the 27-nation bloc without additional COVID restrictions.

The non-binding list currently has 23 countries on it, including Japan, Qatar and Ukraine, but some of the 27 EU countries already have their own limits on U.S. travelers in place.

EU countries started a procedure to remove the United States from a list of countries whose citizens can travel to the 27-nation bloc without additional COVID restrictions.

The non-binding list currently has 23 countries on it, including Japan, Qatar and Ukraine, but some of the 27 EU countries already have their own limits on U.S. travellers in place.

One diplomat said other countries that would be removed from the safe travel list were Kosovo, Israel, Montenegro, Lebanon and North Macedonia.

The decision on new EU travel restrictions for foreigners would become final on Monday should no EU country object, the sources, as well as two more EU officials, added.

The list is compiled on the basis of COVID-19 situation in each country, as well as reciprocity.

Despite EU calls, the United States does not allow European citizens to visit freely and the bloc has been divided between those pushing for equal treatment and those more reliant on tourism and reluctant to restrict U.S. travellers.

[Necroghastia]

Which is fine and dandy, but does not give you a free pass to be health risk to others.

In any case I will not pose a risk fo you as I live in Ankara and you probably live somewhers else.

Yeah, people in different countries can't influence the pandemic in other countries until, y'know, a new variant is allowed to develop and it spreads outside its country of origin.

But when has that ever happened?

[Kowani]

there are no brakes on this train

A new coronavirus variant, C.1.2, has been detected in South Africa and a number of other countries, with concerns that it could be more infectious and evade vaccines, according to a new preprint study by South Africa's National Institute for Communicable Diseases and the KwaZulu-Natal Research Innovation and Sequencing Platform. The study is awaiting peer review.
Scientists first detected C.1.2 in May 2021, finding that it was descended from C.1, which scientists found surprising as C.1 had last been detected in January. The new variant has "mutated substantially" compared to C.1 and is more mutations away from the original virus detected in Wuhan than any other Variant of Concern (VOC) or Variant of Interest (VOI) detected so far worldwide.
While first detected in South Africa, C.1.2 has since been found in England, China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mauritius, New Zealand, Portugal and Switzerland. The scientists believe that the number of available sequences of C.1.2 may be an underrepresentation of the spread and frequency of the variant in South Africa and around the world. The study found consistent increases in the number of C.1.2 genomes in South Africa on a monthly basis, rising from 0.2% of genomes sequenced in May to 1.6% in June and then to 2% in July, similar to the increases seen with the Beta and Delta variants there.
The study also found that the C.1.2 lineage has a mutation rate of about 41.8 mutations per year, which is nearly twice as fast as the current global mutation rate of the other variants. The scientists stated that this short period of increased evolution was also seen with the Alpha, Beta and Gamma variants, suggesting that a single event, followed by a spike in cases, drove faster mutation rates.
More than half of the C.1.2 sequences have 14 mutations, but additional mutations have been noticed in some of the sequences, suggesting that evolution within the lineage is ongoing, according to the study.
More than half (about 52%) of the mutations in the spike region of the C.1.2 sequences have previously been seen in other VOCs and VOIs. The mutations N440K and Y449H, which have been associated with escape from certain antibodies, have also been noticed in C.1.2 sequences. The scientists stressed that the combination of these mutations, as well as changes in other parts of the virus, likely help the virus evade antibodies and immune responses, including in patients who have already been infected with the Alpha or Beta variants.
The scientists added that further work is required to understand the exact impact of these mutations and to see if they give the variant a competitive advantage over the Delta variant.

[Hispida]

there are no brakes on this train

A new coronavirus variant, C.1.2, has been detected in South Africa and a number of other countries, with concerns that it could be more infectious and evade vaccines, according to a new preprint study by South Africa's National Institute for Communicable Diseases and the KwaZulu-Natal Research Innovation and Sequencing Platform. The study is awaiting peer review.
Scientists first detected C.1.2 in May 2021, finding that it was descended from C.1, which scientists found surprising as C.1 had last been detected in January. The new variant has "mutated substantially" compared to C.1 and is more mutations away from the original virus detected in Wuhan than any other Variant of Concern (VOC) or Variant of Interest (VOI) detected so far worldwide.
While first detected in South Africa, C.1.2 has since been found in England, China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mauritius, New Zealand, Portugal and Switzerland. The scientists believe that the number of available sequences of C.1.2 may be an underrepresentation of the spread and frequency of the variant in South Africa and around the world. The study found consistent increases in the number of C.1.2 genomes in South Africa on a monthly basis, rising from 0.2% of genomes sequenced in May to 1.6% in June and then to 2% in July, similar to the increases seen with the Beta and Delta variants there.
The study also found that the C.1.2 lineage has a mutation rate of about 41.8 mutations per year, which is nearly twice as fast as the current global mutation rate of the other variants. The scientists stated that this short period of increased evolution was also seen with the Alpha, Beta and Gamma variants, suggesting that a single event, followed by a spike in cases, drove faster mutation rates.
More than half of the C.1.2 sequences have 14 mutations, but additional mutations have been noticed in some of the sequences, suggesting that evolution within the lineage is ongoing, according to the study.
More than half (about 52%) of the mutations in the spike region of the C.1.2 sequences have previously been seen in other VOCs and VOIs. The mutations N440K and Y449H, which have been associated with escape from certain antibodies, have also been noticed in C.1.2 sequences. The scientists stressed that the combination of these mutations, as well as changes in other parts of the virus, likely help the virus evade antibodies and immune responses, including in patients who have already been infected with the Alpha or Beta variants.
The scientists added that further work is required to understand the exact impact of these mutations and to see if they give the variant a competitive advantage over the Delta variant.

I WANT OFF MR. BONES' WILD RIDE

[Kowani]

Israel no longer considers people who have received 2 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines "vaccinated." As of September 1, only those three times vaccinated are considered immune

[Forsher]

Israel no longer considers people who have received 2 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines "vaccinated." As of September 1, only those three times vaccinated are considered immune

The apparent source of this conclusion is:

Under the new rules, which are set to come into effect on Friday, all those who are either vaccinated within the previous five months, or who were vaccinated earlier and received a booster, will be exempt from isolation if they return from all other countries, except those labeled as “red” – Brazil, Bulgaria, Mexico and Turkey.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/covid ... -on-678025

so... maybe?

[San Lumen]

https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/08/ ... d-strategy

Australia ending zero covid strategy

[Post War America]

EU to reinstate covid travel measures for Americans

The European Union on Friday moved to reinstate COVID travel restrictions like quarantine and testing requirements for unvaccinated citizens of the United States and five other countries, two diplomats told Reuters.

EU countries started a procedure to remove the United States from a list of countries whose citizens can travel to the 27-nation bloc without additional COVID restrictions.

The non-binding list currently has 23 countries on it, including Japan, Qatar and Ukraine, but some of the 27 EU countries already have their own limits on U.S. travelers in place.

EU countries started a procedure to remove the United States from a list of countries whose citizens can travel to the 27-nation bloc without additional COVID restrictions.

The non-binding list currently has 23 countries on it, including Japan, Qatar and Ukraine, but some of the 27 EU countries already have their own limits on U.S. travellers in place.

One diplomat said other countries that would be removed from the safe travel list were Kosovo, Israel, Montenegro, Lebanon and North Macedonia.

The decision on new EU travel restrictions for foreigners would become final on Monday should no EU country object, the sources, as well as two more EU officials, added.

The list is compiled on the basis of COVID-19 situation in each country, as well as reciprocity.

Despite EU calls, the United States does not allow European citizens to visit freely and the bloc has been divided between those pushing for equal treatment and those more reliant on tourism and reluctant to restrict U.S. travellers.

Well I guess its time to get ready for another year of destitution. God I love antivaxxers.

[San Lumen]

EU to reinstate covid travel measures for Americans

The European Union on Friday moved to reinstate COVID travel restrictions like quarantine and testing requirements for unvaccinated citizens of the United States and five other countries, two diplomats told Reuters.

EU countries started a procedure to remove the United States from a list of countries whose citizens can travel to the 27-nation bloc without additional COVID restrictions.

The non-binding list currently has 23 countries on it, including Japan, Qatar and Ukraine, but some of the 27 EU countries already have their own limits on U.S. travelers in place.

EU countries started a procedure to remove the United States from a list of countries whose citizens can travel to the 27-nation bloc without additional COVID restrictions.

The non-binding list currently has 23 countries on it, including Japan, Qatar and Ukraine, but some of the 27 EU countries already have their own limits on U.S. travellers in place.

One diplomat said other countries that would be removed from the safe travel list were Kosovo, Israel, Montenegro, Lebanon and North Macedonia.

The decision on new EU travel restrictions for foreigners would become final on Monday should no EU country object, the sources, as well as two more EU officials, added.

The list is compiled on the basis of COVID-19 situation in each country, as well as reciprocity.

Despite EU calls, the United States does not allow European citizens to visit freely and the bloc has been divided between those pushing for equal treatment and those more reliant on tourism and reluctant to restrict U.S. travellers.

Well I guess its time to get ready for another year of destitution. God I love antivaxxers.

At some point as a world we are going to have the accept this is endemic and just give up. I wish that day would be tomorrow and tell people if you won't get vaccinated thats on you and our leaders completely ignore the WHO and CDC. if we ended for profit hospitals many wouldn't be overwhelmed

[Post War America]

https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/08/28/australia-is-ending-its-zero-covid-strategy

Australia ending zero covid strategy

For future reference, please post the text of the article so that those of us who don't have the desire or ability to pay for a subscription.

[Grave_n_idle]

Well I guess its time to get ready for another year of destitution. God I love antivaxxers.

At some point as a world we are going to have the accept this is endemic and just give up. I wish that day would be tomorrow and tell people if you won't get vaccinated thats on you and our leaders completely ignore the WHO and CDC. if we ended for profit hospitals many wouldn't be overwhelmed

Surely the point of the Australian approach is that a covid-zero approach is possible? Schools have been open, people have been eating in restaurants and going to theaters to watch plays and all the usual stuff - and they have been doing all that because they treated it like a pandemic and made appropriate choices.

Even now that they are talking about relaxing their approach, they're talking about relaxing the approach WHEN they get to a high enough vaccination level (they're aiming for 80%) that they have effectively duplicated herd-immunity.

That's why the TOTAL deaths to coronavirus in all of Australia since the pandemic started - is lower than the total of deaths in two days, in Florida on Thursday and Friday of last week.