8 dead in Atlanta, Georgia Mass shootings

[Thermodolia]

OK.

usually mothers between the ages of 35-55

Three of them were over 63 years old, landing outside the "usual" age range. One we don't know much about, so we don't know if she's a mother or not.

They are often lied to or seriously misled about the type of work they’ll be doing,

This does not seem to fit with what we know, since we so far have no indication that anyone there was engaged in sex work. One of the places was reputable enough that Gonzales brought her newly wedded husband to it for a date night, and while it is possible they were looking for sex and he is lying about it now it seems very unlikely based on current information.

Once they are at the massage parlor, traffickers step up their control with a combination of manipulation and blackmail. A woman who speaks little English, whose identification documents are held by traffickers, whose finances are controlled by traffickers, and who has been transported by traffickers to an unfamiliar place, is told that she has the “choice” to provide commercial sex or to leave and take care of herself.

Traffickers have told her that if she leaves no one will help her, that the police are corrupt and won’t listen to her or believe her, that she will be arrested for prostitution or deported, and that her family will be told the shameful story that she is working in the sex industry in the United States, and will be required to pay off her debts. Given this situation, there is no real choice for the victim. Either she stays at the massage parlor, abiding by the rules set by the trafficker, or risks losing everything.

Four of the victims were originally Korean nationals, but according to the Korean consulate in Atlanta said Friday afternoon that three of the victims were US citizens and one was a Korean citizen with a green card. It's difficult to threaten US citizens with deportation.

One was originally a chinese national, but later became a naturalized citizen.She owned the place and was a licensed massage therapist. She arrived in the US in 2006 after entering into marriage with Michael Webb in 2004, and she became a naturalized citized in 2012. Clearly not a victim of trafficking.

Another had been in the US since the 70's, after marrying Mac Peterson, a US citizen. She has a family in the US and there's no indication that her finances or documents are held by anyone.

Yet another has been married for 50 years, and is a grandmother.

The eldest was 74, and she was close to her family whom also lives in the US.

She had stayed close with her relatives, many of whom still live in New York and New Jersey. “She got along with her family so well,” Mr. Lee said in Korean.

Of the people we have information about, the description provided by the Polaris Project of the "typical" victim of trafficking doesn't fit.

oh, IIIIII see. We're talking past each other.
My apologies, I thought we were talking about the trade in general, not the specific victims. I looked back and notice two other posters really did say that they'd "definitely been trafficked', so now your indignance makes quite a bit more sense. That is of course a *ridiculous* statement. Mea culpa, noon for ya'll is bed time for me.
On the topic of the victims, all three locations are listed on rubmaps. However, it's not true that they'd "definitely been trafficked". If them folks have such knowledge of the inner workings of a trade that presently confounds researchers weeeell they really ought to share it with their local law enforcement officials. And, of course, with details of their citizenship status we can certainly say the chances of trafficking are quite low, ain't no need to speculate.

I was assuming they where trafficked based on the general trend of the trade in general. Whoops

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

Assumptions based on race/nationality of the victims ...

I doubt I was the first to say "Korean Americans" but I'm proud of it anyway.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

If Christians don't distinguish between types, then I'm not going to.

Until the trial we won't know what role weird readings of the Bible might have played in his motives. But we condemn Muslims for suicide attacks on no more basis than that they attended a radical mosque at some time, and yelled "Allahu Akbah" before attacking. Even if there is a pattern to their choice of target, the religious motivation makes it Terrorism.
It wouldn't take much at all to persuade me this guy was a Biblical Fundamentalist Terrorist, and any others who may have similar beliefs should be investigated.

If you'd like to distance Christians from All Believers in the Bible, now would be a good time.

You’re attacking an argument and not engaging people. Shadowboxing is bad for you, nobody is talking about Muslims here, and you’re only dragging bad faith into this discussion.

Attacking an argument and not engaging people is EXACTLY what mods advise us to do.

Some hate crimes, even some terrorism, is motivated by fundamentalist interpretations of what's in the Bible. You don't like me characterizing that as Christian Terrorism, fine I understand that. A person who believes every word of the Old Testament is not necessarily a Christian (they may be a Jew for instance), however they could be a Biblical Fundamentalist Terrorist.

You should denounce such people. Even if they ARE Christians.

[Kowani]

One of the survivors of the attack was treated as a suspect, being detained for hours while his wife was dying

A man who survived the Atlanta spa massacre says authorities detained him before telling him his wife, Delaina Ashley Yaun, 33, was killed in the shooting. Fear led Mario González to stay put in his room at Young’s Asian Massage when he heard shots ring out on Tuesday. But when help arrived, he was treated as a suspect instead of a victim.

González told Mundo Hispánico that authorities assumed he was involved and handcuffed him, causing bruising to his wrists. He couldn’t say for certain if his mistreatment was because of his race. But he said that law enforcement did not seem to believe he was married to Yaun, who was white. Officers from the Cherokee County Sheriff’s Department arrived at the scene just as González was running outside. Surveillance footage showed González handcuffed and sitting on the curb in front of the shop before he was placed in the back of a squad car.

González said he was detained for hours before anyone told him about his wife. During the interview with Mundo Hispánico, González explained that the couple had booked massages at Youngs Asian Massage.

González and Yaun were getting massages in separate rooms when he heard gunshots. Yuan’s mother Margaret Rushing said the night out was supposed to be a treat for them both.

“She wanted a day just her and her husband, spend a little time together, all she wanted was their massages,” Rushing said during an interview with CBS 46. As the investigation continues to unfold, questions about officers detaining González could raise a flag. An employee from a nearby business told the Daily Mail that he offered aid to González after the tragedy.

“Mario looked at me and he told me his wife was still inside. He told me to tell the police,” said Alex Acosta, a worker at Gabby’s Boutique located near the spa. When Acosta’s wife told an officer that Gonzalez’s wife was still inside the spa, the cop replied, “I know.”

[Kowani]

You’re attacking an argument and not engaging people. Shadowboxing is bad for you, nobody is talking about Muslims here, and you’re only dragging bad faith into this discussion.

Attacking an argument and not engaging people is EXACTLY what mods advise us to do.

Some hate crimes, even some terrorism, is motivated by fundamentalist interpretations of what's in the Bible. You don't like me characterizing that as Christian Terrorism, fine I understand that. A person who believes every word of the Old Testament is not necessarily a Christian (they may be a Jew for instance), however they could be a Biblical Fundamentalist Terrorist.

You should denounce such people. Even if they ARE Christians.

you know
i've never understood the impetus to get random strangers on the internet to denounce attacks with which they share one demographic characteristic
it's the most useless form of virtue-signaling there is
but this is particularly stupid
it'd be one thing if Lumi was actually a southern baptist, at which point you'd be at least in the realm of plausibility
but claiming that Catholics need to denounce the atrocities committed by southern baptists makes no sense whatsoever

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

I never said, “Christians would never do that,” don’t put words in my mouth. Christians are capable of a lot of bad things. I was merely explaining that prostitutes are not considered evil or incapable of sitting at God’s table, and therefore this psycho has acted against God. I will talk about the Bible if I want, provided I don’t cause a threadjack, because I am saying this man is a radical and his violent sex addiction and hate of Asian women led him to kill. And he used the Bible to justify his evil deeds. Yes, this is absolutely a hate crime. I’ve never suggested it wasn’t.

I’m a Catholic, and I have been since I was four months old. I’m not a fundie, and I’m DEFINITELY not a radical. You’re not even following what I’ve said, and instead choosing to follow along with this detached posting style that is frankly unhinged and not based at all in reality. If you want to find someone who is defending this man, go somewhere else.

You nearly said "radical Christian" but couldn't quite put the two words together.

I never said prostitutes were "evil or incapable of sitting at God's table" and if I did, I would consider that a bit "unhinged". Coming right after accusing me of putting words in YOUR mouth, it's at best a strawman.

You won't condemn any role that bad religion might have played in this heinous crime. In this one case, any religion he might have had can only be a justification, because "real" religion never motivates evil deeds.

It's No True Scotsman but what-evs. I'll just say that ascribing a "violent sex addiction" to someone just because they did a terrible thing, is just as offensive to my secular liking of sex, as what I said about folks who take the Bible too seriously. Of all human activities, sex does the most good for the least harm, and the only criticism of prostitution which has ever persuaded me a bit, is that sex workers need money (as anyone does) and thus are not freely consenting. In my opinion, though, the infringement of consent only reaches the standard of Rape if the sex workers are more compelled, eg by a drug addiction or by madams telling them lies about legal options and impounding their passport.

Good to see you agree it was a hate crime. That will do I guess.

[The Two Jerseys]

One of the survivors of the attack was treated as a suspect, being detained for hours while his wife was dying

A man who survived the Atlanta spa massacre says authorities detained him before telling him his wife, Delaina Ashley Yaun, 33, was killed in the shooting. Fear led Mario González to stay put in his room at Young’s Asian Massage when he heard shots ring out on Tuesday. But when help arrived, he was treated as a suspect instead of a victim.

González told Mundo Hispánico that authorities assumed he was involved and handcuffed him, causing bruising to his wrists. He couldn’t say for certain if his mistreatment was because of his race. But he said that law enforcement did not seem to believe he was married to Yaun, who was white. Officers from the Cherokee County Sheriff’s Department arrived at the scene just as González was running outside. Surveillance footage showed González handcuffed and sitting on the curb in front of the shop before he was placed in the back of a squad car.

González said he was detained for hours before anyone told him about his wife. During the interview with Mundo Hispánico, González explained that the couple had booked massages at Youngs Asian Massage.

González and Yaun were getting massages in separate rooms when he heard gunshots. Yuan’s mother Margaret Rushing said the night out was supposed to be a treat for them both.

“She wanted a day just her and her husband, spend a little time together, all she wanted was their massages,” Rushing said during an interview with CBS 46. As the investigation continues to unfold, questions about officers detaining González could raise a flag. An employee from a nearby business told the Daily Mail that he offered aid to González after the tragedy.

“Mario looked at me and he told me his wife was still inside. He told me to tell the police,” said Alex Acosta, a worker at Gabby’s Boutique located near the spa. When Acosta’s wife told an officer that Gonzalez’s wife was still inside the spa, the cop replied, “I know.”

I mean, it's reasonable for the responding officers to assume that a person who runs from the crime scene when the police arrive might be the suspect. It sounds like all they did was detain him for a few hours until they could clear him, it's hardly fair to call that mistreatment.

[Paddy O Fernature]

One of the survivors of the attack was treated as a suspect, being detained for hours while his wife was dying

A man who survived the Atlanta spa massacre says authorities detained him before telling him his wife, Delaina Ashley Yaun, 33, was killed in the shooting. Fear led Mario González to stay put in his room at Young’s Asian Massage when he heard shots ring out on Tuesday. But when help arrived, he was treated as a suspect instead of a victim.

González told Mundo Hispánico that authorities assumed he was involved and handcuffed him, causing bruising to his wrists. He couldn’t say for certain if his mistreatment was because of his race. But he said that law enforcement did not seem to believe he was married to Yaun, who was white. Officers from the Cherokee County Sheriff’s Department arrived at the scene just as González was running outside. Surveillance footage showed González handcuffed and sitting on the curb in front of the shop before he was placed in the back of a squad car.

González said he was detained for hours before anyone told him about his wife. During the interview with Mundo Hispánico, González explained that the couple had booked massages at Youngs Asian Massage.

González and Yaun were getting massages in separate rooms when he heard gunshots. Yuan’s mother Margaret Rushing said the night out was supposed to be a treat for them both.

“She wanted a day just her and her husband, spend a little time together, all she wanted was their massages,” Rushing said during an interview with CBS 46. As the investigation continues to unfold, questions about officers detaining González could raise a flag. An employee from a nearby business told the Daily Mail that he offered aid to González after the tragedy.

“Mario looked at me and he told me his wife was still inside. He told me to tell the police,” said Alex Acosta, a worker at Gabby’s Boutique located near the spa. When Acosta’s wife told an officer that Gonzalez’s wife was still inside the spa, the cop replied, “I know.”

I mean, it's reasonable for the responding officers to assume that a person who runs from the crime scene when the police arrive might be the suspect. It sounds like all they did was detain him for a few hours until they could clear him, it's hardly fair to call that mistreatment.

In this instance, I agree. Sucks that he had to hear about his wife that way though.

[Ifreann]

One of the survivors of the attack was treated as a suspect, being detained for hours while his wife was dying

A man who survived the Atlanta spa massacre says authorities detained him before telling him his wife, Delaina Ashley Yaun, 33, was killed in the shooting. Fear led Mario González to stay put in his room at Young’s Asian Massage when he heard shots ring out on Tuesday. But when help arrived, he was treated as a suspect instead of a victim.

González told Mundo Hispánico that authorities assumed he was involved and handcuffed him, causing bruising to his wrists. He couldn’t say for certain if his mistreatment was because of his race. But he said that law enforcement did not seem to believe he was married to Yaun, who was white. Officers from the Cherokee County Sheriff’s Department arrived at the scene just as González was running outside. Surveillance footage showed González handcuffed and sitting on the curb in front of the shop before he was placed in the back of a squad car.

González said he was detained for hours before anyone told him about his wife. During the interview with Mundo Hispánico, González explained that the couple had booked massages at Youngs Asian Massage.

González and Yaun were getting massages in separate rooms when he heard gunshots. Yuan’s mother Margaret Rushing said the night out was supposed to be a treat for them both.

“She wanted a day just her and her husband, spend a little time together, all she wanted was their massages,” Rushing said during an interview with CBS 46. As the investigation continues to unfold, questions about officers detaining González could raise a flag. An employee from a nearby business told the Daily Mail that he offered aid to González after the tragedy.

“Mario looked at me and he told me his wife was still inside. He told me to tell the police,” said Alex Acosta, a worker at Gabby’s Boutique located near the spa. When Acosta’s wife told an officer that Gonzalez’s wife was still inside the spa, the cop replied, “I know.”

I mean, it's reasonable for the responding officers to assume that a person who runs from the crime scene when the police arrive might be the suspect. It sounds like all they did was detain him for a few hours until they could clear him, it's hardly fair to call that mistreatment.

"You're under arrest for running away from a terrorist attack"

[Paddy O Fernature]

I mean, it's reasonable for the responding officers to assume that a person who runs from the crime scene when the police arrive might be the suspect. It sounds like all they did was detain him for a few hours until they could clear him, it's hardly fair to call that mistreatment.

"You're under arrest for running away from a terrorist attack"

Said nobody here.

[Ethel mermania]

I mean, it's reasonable for the responding officers to assume that a person who runs from the crime scene when the police arrive might be the suspect. It sounds like all they did was detain him for a few hours until they could clear him, it's hardly fair to call that mistreatment.

"You're under arrest for running away from a terrorist attack"

To a point, yes. The cops are going to hold you till your cleared of being a terrorist yourownself. Criminals use that tactic to get away.

[Vassenor]

"You're under arrest for running away from a terrorist attack"

Said nobody here.

Apart from the post saying it was reasonable to arrest anyone trying to flee the scene of a mass shooting.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Said nobody here.

Apart from the post saying it was reasonable to arrest anyone trying to flee the scene of a mass shooting.

You do know the difference between detaining someone and arresting them, yes?

[Ifreann]

Apart from the post saying it was reasonable to arrest anyone trying to flee the scene of a mass shooting.

You do know the difference between detaining someone and arresting them, yes?

Quibbling over semantics.

[Ethel mermania]

You do know the difference between detaining someone and arresting them, yes?

Quibbling over semantics.

Not at all, they are very different things. If you are arrested you have a record and have to go through a process to be released. Held till cleared, they let you go, and there is no negative record.

[Paddy O Fernature]

You do know the difference between detaining someone and arresting them, yes?

Quibbling over semantics.

Hardly, and you know it.

[Thermodolia]

Quibbling over semantics.

Not at all, they are very different things. If you are arrested you have a record and have to go through a process to be released. Held till cleared, they let you go, and there is no negative record.

Case in point every traffic stop ever. Those are technically instances where you are being detained until you are cleared to go. You haven’t been arrested but you can’t leave unless you want to be arrested

[Ifreann]

The point is that it's not suspicious to run away from a terrorist attack. It's actually normal and smart.

[Kernen]

You do know the difference between detaining someone and arresting them, yes?

Quibbling over semantics.

Legally, no.

[Fartsniffage]

Quibbling over semantics.

Legally, no.

The guy was handcuffed and held by the police for hours. That isn't brief and cursory. I would argue it was an arrest.

[Kernen]

Legally, no.

The guy was handcuffed and held by the police for hours. That isn't brief and cursory. I would argue it was an arrest.

Well, an arrest technically requires charging with a crime. If you're just held, even in cuffs at the station for hours, you're just detained.

[Ethel mermania]

The point is that it's not suspicious to run away from a terrorist attack. It's actually normal and smart.

And exactly what terrorists try and do when escaping during the confusion. Nothing exceptional was done. Now we get it this poor guy did nothing, he and his wife were getting a massage and bang bang bang, he is running for his life and he is held. Of course its traumatic, and having sympathy for him is natural, i do, poor guy was trying to do a nice thing for his wife and she is dead. But what the cops did was normal, its unpleasant, but .. they had to clear him.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Legally, no.

The guy was handcuffed and held by the police for hours. That isn't brief and cursory. I would argue it was an arrest.

You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but it wouldn't change the simple fact that you would be wrong.

[Fartsniffage]

The guy was handcuffed and held by the police for hours. That isn't brief and cursory. I would argue it was an arrest.

You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but it wouldn't change the simple fact that you would be wrong.

The Georgia Supreme court seems to lean in my favour.

It has been noted by the Georgia Supreme Court that “a person is under arrest whenever his liberty to come and go as he pleases is restrained, no matter how slight such restraint may be.” In fact, it is not necessary for a person to actually be touched in order to be considered under arrest.

The Court of Appeals in Georgia defines an arrest further, saying that an arrest depends upon “whether a reasonable person in the suspect’s position would have thought the detentions would not be temporary.” Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure or arrest even if the person did not attempt to leave would be: the threatening presence of several police officers, the display of a weapon by officer, actual physical touching of a person by an officer, or the use of language or tone of voice that indicated that a person had to comply with officers request.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what- ... rgia-24776

[The Two Jerseys]

You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but it wouldn't change the simple fact that you would be wrong.

The Georgia Supreme court seems to lean in my favour.

It has been noted by the Georgia Supreme Court that “a person is under arrest whenever his liberty to come and go as he pleases is restrained, no matter how slight such restraint may be.” In fact, it is not necessary for a person to actually be touched in order to be considered under arrest.

The Court of Appeals in Georgia defines an arrest further, saying that an arrest depends upon “whether a reasonable person in the suspect’s position would have thought the detentions would not be temporary.” Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure or arrest even if the person did not attempt to leave would be: the threatening presence of several police officers, the display of a weapon by officer, actual physical touching of a person by an officer, or the use of language or tone of voice that indicated that a person had to comply with officers request.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what- ... rgia-24776

Internet lawyer is taking that quote completely out of context:

"Under [OCGA § 17-4-1[4]] a person is under arrest whenever his liberty to come and go as he pleases is restrained, no matter how slight such restraint may be." (Citations and punctuation omitted.) State v. Nelson, 261 Ga. 246, 247(1)(b), 404 S.E.2d 112 (1991). But not every taking of a person into custody by a peace officer constitutes an arrest. "Arrest" by definition denotes taking into custody an "offender against the penal laws, based on probable cause." OCGA § 17-4-40 (procedures for issuance of an arrest warrant in Criminal Procedure Code). See also OCGA §§ 17-4-20 (authorization of arrests "for a crime"); 17-4-60 (grounds for arrest of "an offender" by a private person). See also Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 16(II), 88 S. Ct. 1868, 20 L. Ed. 2d 889 (1968) (recognizing that the Fourth Amendment applies to a seizure of a person which does not rise to the level of an arrest, which is defined "in traditional terminology" as a seizure which "eventuate[s] in a trip to the station house and prosecution for crime" and which is lawful only when the arresting officer "is apprised of facts sufficient to warrant a belief that the person has committed or is committing a crime"); LaFave, Search and Seizure, A Treatise on the Fourth Amendment, § 5.1(a) (4th ed. 2006).

https://law.justia.com/cases/georgia/court-of-appeals/2006/a06a1402-0.html

TL;DR: a person being placed under arrest is under arrest as soon as he's prevented from leaving, but preventing someone from leaving is not necessarily an arrest.