8 dead in Atlanta, Georgia Mass shootings

[Purgatio]

Like I said from the beginning his church was a borderline cult. They hated sex and women. So it’s really no surprise that this was a gendered hate crime.

The gendered hate crime is a more sensible narrative than it being a racial hate crime. People are focusing on the victims being Asian, yet the shooter frequented these massage parlor brothel setups.

I’d classify him as a religious fanatic incel with a skewed psyche if I had to label him.

What? Wait, so if you have paid sex with someone of a particular race, you can't be racist against them? Since when has that been true? And isn't the whole argument that the 'racial motivation' in question stems from the fetishisation of East Asian women as sexually-available objects or conquests? Isn't him frequenting these facilities completely consonant and congruent with such a racial motivation, and if anything, strengthens it?

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Was he? I just kind of glanced at the link in the OP and hadn't seen that.

A witness claims to have heard that but afaik the shooter has explicitly told police it was not racially motivated.

I’m sure he did. Tbh I wouldn’t trust much this dude says.

[Kowani]

Like I said from the beginning his church was a borderline cult. They hated sex and women. So it’s really no surprise that this was a gendered hate crime.

The gendered hate crime is a more sensible narrative than it being a racial hate crime. People are focusing on the victims being Asian, yet the shooter frequented these massage parlor brothel setups.

I’d classify him as a religious fanatic incel with a skewed psyche if I had to label him.

They’re…not mutually exclusive
“East Asian women are sexually submissive objects” as a cultural stereotype requires both portions of that to be perceived as true
There’s no real reason why having sex with women precludes you from being racially biased against them, since a large part of that stereotype is based on race in the first place-
Like, you ever meet a white nationalist? They fetishize Asian women all the time.
Because racism, as it turns out, is about more than just roaring hatred and screaming slurs

[Luminesa]

Christians don’t follow Leviticus anyway and understand that the Old Law was a stepping stone toward the crux of salvation, in which there would be NO slavery and NO people considered inferior. ANYWAY.

For the bolded bit, the marriage system actually does mildly favor women, especially when it comes to custody of children. More on topic, however, this crisis could have been averted if this man had gotten off the streets and into some sort of rehab for sex addiction (and for violent feelings toward women, especially seemingly toward Asian women).

But also possibly for deradicalization from christian fundamentalism.

You are completely on the wrong side with "christians would never do that" and should be capable of the more nuanced position that people can find support for any vile ideology by reading the bible for themselves, and not taking the Greatest Hits compilation from any particular Church.

Because where you're heading is that he did it despite being a christian, and arguing what the bible "says about prostitutes" is just going to get you into more trouble. The bible says some terrible things about prostitutes (and btw marriage, homosexuality, the proper way to raise children etc) and it also say firmly Thou Shalt Not Kill ... so he just picked different parts of it to believe most strongly.

You're in the position Muslims were, when people demanded they denounce "radical Islam". Thinking that without radicalization, there would be no more terrorism.

I'm calling on you, a Christian, to denounce "radical Christianity". Being those people who put too much weight on some parts of the bible. They may call themselves Christians, but you should denounce them anyway.

Because race being the main motivator, would make it a Hate Crime. Some twisted thinking about sex and "saving" the girls from slavery and oppression, would simply be a Crime. But a primarily religious motivation would over-ride the targets being of a particular race or occupation, and raise it from a Hate Crime to Terrorism.

If I were you, I wouldn't utter another word about what's in the Bible. That would only further associate you with Radical Christianity which stands too close to Terrorism at this time. You should renounce anyone who does terrible things for religious reasons. Even if that religion is Christianity.

I never said, “Christians would never do that,” don’t put words in my mouth. Christians are capable of a lot of bad things. I was merely explaining that prostitutes are not considered evil or incapable of sitting at God’s table, and therefore this psycho has acted against God. I will talk about the Bible if I want, provided I don’t cause a threadjack, because I am saying this man is a radical and his violent sex addiction and hate of Asian women led him to kill. And he used the Bible to justify his evil deeds. Yes, this is absolutely a hate crime. I’ve never suggested it wasn’t.

I’m a Catholic, and I have been since I was four months old. I’m not a fundie, and I’m DEFINITELY not a radical. You’re not even following what I’ve said, and instead choosing to follow along with this detached posting style that is frankly unhinged and not based at all in reality. If you want to find someone who is defending this man, go somewhere else.

[Kenzo-Cyprii]

The gendered hate crime is a more sensible narrative than it being a racial hate crime. People are focusing on the victims being Asian, yet the shooter frequented these massage parlor brothel setups.

I’d classify him as a religious fanatic incel with a skewed psyche if I had to label him.

They’re…not mutually exclusive
“East Asian women are sexually submissive objects” as a cultural stereotype requires both portions of that to be perceived as true
There’s no real reason why having sex with women precludes you from being racially biased against them, since a large part of that stereotype is based on race in the first place-
Like, you ever meet a white nationalist? They fetishize Asian women all the time.
Because racism, as it turns out, is about more than just roaring hatred and screaming slurs

I know what your saying.

Let me explain myself;
According to sources - that church he intended as someone prior linked was hardline against feminism and its fair to say women in general “not keeping their head dropped”. He attended those brothel setups regularly, and the church he attended he was very hardcore fire and brimstone. Southern Baptist churches are known for that particularly.

My angle is this; he was heavily indoctrinated by this radical church and in his mind he was going to hell for frequenting these parlors and satisfying his sexual desires. I said he had a very skewed psyche, meaning between that and his radical religious basis he thought by killing those women he was removing the problem. Twisted I know, but again, twisted psyche.

As I said, religious fanatic incel. He may have been a racist. But I’m not going ham-fistedly say “white nationalism” just because it was a white male who killed Asian women. You don’t have to be a racist to murder someone of another race. There are masses of motives for someone willing to commit such atrocity beyond race. This was religious mania, to me. I believe I saw somewhere that he said after the massage places he was planning to head for a porn place next, but let me double check that...

[Luminesa]

We wouldn't consider those kinds of things to be "radical Christianity", but there are already terms in canon law and Christian tradition denouncing such attitudes. This is why the institution of Confession to a priest is so important imo because one of the things the priest does in his confession is to prevent you from transferring your guilt to other people in the course Confession. But what Lumi means is that the legal condemnations in the Old Testament are not relevant to the practice of Christianity, which is something the Church established as early as the first century. It's not fair to hold the entirety of Christianity accountable for a theological trend that only arose in the United States like ninety years ago.

If Christians don't distinguish between types, then I'm not going to.

Until the trial we won't know what role weird readings of the Bible might have played in his motives. But we condemn Muslims for suicide attacks on no more basis than that they attended a radical mosque at some time, and yelled "Allahu Akbah" before attacking. Even if there is a pattern to their choice of target, the religious motivation makes it Terrorism.
It wouldn't take much at all to persuade me this guy was a Biblical Fundamentalist Terrorist, and any others who may have similar beliefs should be investigated.

If you'd like to distance Christians from All Believers in the Bible, now would be a good time.

You’re attacking an argument and not engaging people. Shadowboxing is bad for you, nobody is talking about Muslims here, and you’re only dragging bad faith into this discussion.

[Luminesa]

Black violence against Asians or Jews is very likely to be racially motivated. I'm not sure how often it turns violent, but there is a huge amount of anti-Asian and antisemitic racism among African-Americans. Even my ex, who was black and had no problem being in an interracial relationship with me, sometimes talked about Asians in ways that didn't sit right.

TBF, I have also encountered Asians who were racist against blacks. Racial prejudice is just a common way for people's thinking to go wrong.

The video isn't on youtube anymore, but there was a video of a Jewish college student taking part in a sociology project about his race's relations with other races in his community (NYC) in which he does unscripted interviews with Black passerbys in the Bronx, and the antisemitism escalates up to the point of the interviewees namedropping the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, which another interviewee chimes in and says that it "explains the entire Jewish plot for world domination."

That’s really frightening.

[Gravlen]

I mean, if you want evidence of the racist stereotyping of asian women, you just have to read the thread.

Certain posters have accused them of being trafficed and/or sex workers despite no evidence for either claim being presented. It's just a fair assumption about asian women working at massage parlors, right?

By the way, most of the profiles of the victims so far don't seem fit the profiles of victims of trafficking.

[Kowani]

They’re…not mutually exclusive
“East Asian women are sexually submissive objects” as a cultural stereotype requires both portions of that to be perceived as true
There’s no real reason why having sex with women precludes you from being racially biased against them, since a large part of that stereotype is based on race in the first place-
Like, you ever meet a white nationalist? They fetishize Asian women all the time.
Because racism, as it turns out, is about more than just roaring hatred and screaming slurs

I know what your saying.

Let me explain myself;
According to sources - that church he intended as someone prior linked was hardline against feminism and its fair to say women in general “not keeping their head dropped”. He attended those brothel setups regularly, and the church he attended he was very hardcore fire and brimstone. Southern Baptist churches are known for that particularly.

My angle is this; he was heavily indoctrinated by this radical church and in his mind he was going to hell for frequenting these parlors and satisfying his sexual desires. I said he had a very skewed psyche, meaning between that and his radical religious basis he thought by killing those women he was removing the problem. Twisted I know, but again, twisted psyche.

As I said, religious fanatic incel. He may have been a racist. But I’m not going ham-fistedly say “white nationalism” just because it was a white male who killed Asian women. You don’t have to be a racist to murder someone of another race. There are masses of motives for someone willing to commit such atrocity beyond race. This was religious mania, to me. I believe I saw somewhere that he said after the massage places he was planning to head for a porn place next, but let me double check that...

I…did not claim he was a white nationalist
I was using that as an example of a group that we can all agree is racially bigoted yet still fetishizes Asian women
I know what you said
I just think it doesn’t actually consider the role race plays in shaping someone’s view of how sex works, and especially not when you’ve been inculcated into a worldview that is profoundly restrictive on the matter

[Kubra]

The gendered hate crime is a more sensible narrative than it being a racial hate crime. People are focusing on the victims being Asian, yet the shooter frequented these massage parlor brothel setups.

I’d classify him as a religious fanatic incel with a skewed psyche if I had to label him.

What? Wait, so if you have paid sex with someone of a particular race, you can't be racist against them? Since when has that been true? And isn't the whole argument that the 'racial motivation' in question stems from the fetishisation of East Asian women as sexually-available objects or conquests? Isn't him frequenting these facilities completely consonant and congruent with such a racial motivation, and if anything, strengthens it?

It's not they can't be, but that other factors may be more likely than others. A Chinese man in Shanghai circa 1921 might hire a russian prostitute out of a fetishisation of whiteness, but more than likely he's merely hard up for cash until next paycheque and can only afford a Russian one.

I mean, if you want evidence of the racist stereotyping of asian women, you just have to read the thread.

Certain posters have accused them of being trafficed and/or sex workers despite no evidence for either claim being presented. It's just a fair assumption about asian women working at massage parlors, right?

By the way, most of the profiles of the victims so far don't seem fit the profiles of victims of trafficking.

Will you trust The Polaris Project?
It's not to say that the victims in particular were trafficked, but because exact stats naturally do not exist for obvious reasons one can't help but wonder, you feel? It's like asking if your cocaine is fair trade.
Frankly, I'm more surprised that you *don't* know this.

[Kenzo-Cyprii]

I know what your saying.

Let me explain myself;
According to sources - that church he intended as someone prior linked was hardline against feminism and its fair to say women in general “not keeping their head dropped”. He attended those brothel setups regularly, and the church he attended he was very hardcore fire and brimstone. Southern Baptist churches are known for that particularly.

My angle is this; he was heavily indoctrinated by this radical church and in his mind he was going to hell for frequenting these parlors and satisfying his sexual desires. I said he had a very skewed psyche, meaning between that and his radical religious basis he thought by killing those women he was removing the problem. Twisted I know, but again, twisted psyche.

As I said, religious fanatic incel. He may have been a racist. But I’m not going ham-fistedly say “white nationalism” just because it was a white male who killed Asian women. You don’t have to be a racist to murder someone of another race. There are masses of motives for someone willing to commit such atrocity beyond race. This was religious mania, to me. I believe I saw somewhere that he said after the massage places he was planning to head for a porn place next, but let me double check that...

I…did not claim he was a white nationalist
I was using that as an example of a group that we can all agree is racially bigoted yet still fetishizes Asian women
I know what you said
I just think it doesn’t actually consider the role race plays in shaping someone’s view of how sex works, and especially not when you’ve been inculcated into a worldview that is profoundly restrictive on the matter

Well, pardon me on that. My mistake.

I’m just opping off of what I’ve gathered so far from various news outlets myself. So far, it’s sounding like - as I said - religious mania and a cliché sexually frustrated incel with a twisted mental disposition. But, if further evidence comes out to prove otherwise then like any sensible person I will accept it. Again, just my premise. And for the record while I reject the general assertion that it’s “obviously race related” I do see of course how it looks like that. Especially with current happenings.

[Purgatio]

What? Wait, so if you have paid sex with someone of a particular race, you can't be racist against them? Since when has that been true? And isn't the whole argument that the 'racial motivation' in question stems from the fetishisation of East Asian women as sexually-available objects or conquests? Isn't him frequenting these facilities completely consonant and congruent with such a racial motivation, and if anything, strengthens it?

It's not they can't be, but that other factors may be more likely than others. A Chinese man in Shanghai circa 1921 might hire a russian prostitute out of a fetishisation of whiteness, but more than likely he's merely hard up for cash until next paycheque and can only afford a Russian one.

History matters. Cultural contexts matter. When the killer's been raised and acculturated in a country with a very extensive history of fetishising and stereotyping East Asian women as sexually-available submissive servile objects in the media, in culture, in TV shows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_United_States#Women), and especially in pornography, and that systemic stereotyping and discrimination still persists even to the present day (https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1243&context=crsj; https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1067&context=communication_theses; https://www.mcgill.ca/sociology/files/s ... havior.pdf), then that cultural context is pretty critical to understanding tragedies like this.

Its a mistake to interpret violent attacks in clinical isolation from the prevailing cultural context, as if people aren't irrevocably shaped by the society they grew up in. If you're raised in a country that systematically stereotypes an entire race of women as sexually-submissive objects and servile sexual conquests, then its one hell of a coincidence if a man who explicitly hated sex workers and viewed them as a "temptation" to his "sex addiction" that he had to purge and eradicate, who then attacked a bunch of massage parlours in Atlanta that were Asian-owned in which the staff was predominantly Asian, with 6 out of 8 of his victims were East Asian women, was somehow coincidentally not motivated at all by the race of the victims, despite him growing up in a nation and society in which racist associations between East Asian women and sexual submission and service are so rampant in the media.

[Luminesa]

I mean, if you want evidence of the racist stereotyping of asian women, you just have to read the thread.

Certain posters have accused them of being trafficed and/or sex workers despite no evidence for either claim being presented. It's just a fair assumption about asian women working at massage parlors, right?

By the way, most of the profiles of the victims so far don't seem fit the profiles of victims of trafficking.

I mean, being trafficked is not necessarily an accusation as much as it is a worldwide epidemic. And lots of good, innocent people get caught in it. If these ladies were sex workers who were pushed into it through human trafficking...that does not make them evil, nor does it make their lives less valuable.

If you’d like evidence that this is a big problem, however, I can find a couple of statistics:
https://www.api-gbv.org/about-gbv/types ... afficking/

A couple of fast stats:
1.) Asian women are the most likely to be trafficked, followed by Latinas.
2.) Almost 90% of all human trafficking survivors are women.
3.) 60% are adults, about 30% are minors.
4.) The greatest risk to becoming a victim of human trafficking is recent migration. Because a lot of these women are transient or have hopped from one continent to another, they have very few political protections...and thus are vulnerable to predatory behavior.

All of this creates a hotbed of abuse of Asian and Pacific Islander women. If we are going to suggest that massage parlors often are covers for human trafficking - which happens a lot - then the women caught in this cycle need HELP, NOT RIDICULE.

And either way, 8 people are dead and 6 of them are Asian women, at least one of whom was a recent migrant to the United States. These are vulnerable women whose lives were taken by a nut job.

[Kubra]

It's not they can't be, but that other factors may be more likely than others. A Chinese man in Shanghai circa 1921 might hire a russian prostitute out of a fetishisation of whiteness, but more than likely he's merely hard up for cash until next paycheque and can only afford a Russian one.

History matters. Cultural contexts matter. When the killer's been raised and acculturated in a country with a very extensive history of fetishising and stereotyping East Asian women as sexually-available submissive servile objects in the media, in culture, in TV shows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_United_States#Women), and especially in pornography, and that systemic stereotyping and discrimination still persists even to the present day (https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1243&context=crsj; https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1067&context=communication_theses; https://www.mcgill.ca/sociology/files/s ... havior.pdf), then that cultural context is pretty critical to understanding tragedies like this.

Its a mistake to interpret violent attacks in clinical isolation from the prevailing cultural context, as if people aren't irrevocably shaped by the society they grew up in. If you're raised in a country that systematically stereotypes an entire race of women as sexually-submissive objects and servile sexual conquests, then its one hell of a coincidence if a man who explicitly hated sex workers and viewed them as a "temptation" to his "sex addiction" that he had to purge and eradicate, who then attacked a bunch of massage parlours in Atlanta that were Asian-owned in which the staff was predominantly Asian, with 6 out of 8 of his victims were East Asian women, was somehow coincidentally not motivated at all by the race of the victims, despite him growing up in a nation and society in which racist associations between East Asian women and sexual submission and service are so rampant in the media.

Because, again, he shot up massage parlours. Which, again, are disproportionately staffed by asian sex workers. Look closely at that latter one: remember the made up 90% figure? That's a real figure for NYC in 2019, baby.
A quick word on massage parlors: there's no hoops involved in using them. You don't need to be in the know for where and when to find the elusive species known as the "streetwalker", none of the technological knowhow that goes into accessing online escort networks, it's a business on a street and you walk in. And, this is important, they're *cheap* for their convenience and reliability. You know where one is, and you know that what's inside will result in, well, you know. That's important for folks without the knowledge of accessing online services, since if they're only marginally acquainted with em then not only are they not going to walk away with the service they are soliciting, but also with their credit card number in someone elses hands.
Let me be blunt: is this the first time you're hearing of this deeply unsettling issue? One with an undeniable racial component? Sex work ain't all onlyfans, boyo.

[Bienenhalde]

Indeed. We have to show that we as a society will absolutely not tolerate this sort of degeneracy.

I believe the murderer has similar attitudes about society and "degeneracy".

Except that the women he killed, if they even were in prostitution at all, were probably there due to poverty or being trafficked. So clearly the real fault lies with himself. He made bad choices and must pay the consequences for what he did.

[Kubra]

I mean, if you want evidence of the racist stereotyping of asian women, you just have to read the thread.

Certain posters have accused them of being trafficed and/or sex workers despite no evidence for either claim being presented. It's just a fair assumption about asian women working at massage parlors, right?

By the way, most of the profiles of the victims so far don't seem fit the profiles of victims of trafficking.

I mean, being trafficked is not necessarily an accusation as much as it is a worldwide epidemic. And lots of good, innocent people get caught in it. If these ladies were sex workers who were pushed into it through human trafficking...that does not make them evil, nor does it make their lives less valuable.

If you’d like evidence that this is a big problem, however, I can find a couple of statistics:
https://www.api-gbv.org/about-gbv/types ... afficking/

A couple of fast stats:
1.) Asian women are the most likely to be trafficked, followed by Latinas.
2.) Almost 90% of all human trafficking survivors are women.
3.) 60% are adults, about 30% are minors.
4.) The greatest risk to becoming a victim of human trafficking is recent migration. Because a lot of these women are transient or have hopped from one continent to another, they have very few political protections...and thus are vulnerable to predatory behavior.

All of this creates a hotbed of abuse of Asian and Pacific Islander women. If we are going to suggest that massage parlors often are covers for human trafficking - which happens a lot - then the women caught in this cycle need HELP, NOT RIDICULE.

And either way, 8 people are dead and 6 of them are Asian women, at least one of whom was a recent migrant to the United States. These are vulnerable women whose lives were taken by a nut job.

In fairness, most workers within these brothels are working "voluntarily". You know, about as voluntarily as the 60 year old door greeter at wal mart that can barely stand, let alone for 8 hour shifts. Which is, ehh, better than direct coercion, but we're setting a low bar.

[Purgatio]

History matters. Cultural contexts matter. When the killer's been raised and acculturated in a country with a very extensive history of fetishising and stereotyping East Asian women as sexually-available submissive servile objects in the media, in culture, in TV shows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_United_States#Women), and especially in pornography, and that systemic stereotyping and discrimination still persists even to the present day (https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1243&context=crsj; https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1067&context=communication_theses; https://www.mcgill.ca/sociology/files/s ... havior.pdf), then that cultural context is pretty critical to understanding tragedies like this.

Its a mistake to interpret violent attacks in clinical isolation from the prevailing cultural context, as if people aren't irrevocably shaped by the society they grew up in. If you're raised in a country that systematically stereotypes an entire race of women as sexually-submissive objects and servile sexual conquests, then its one hell of a coincidence if a man who explicitly hated sex workers and viewed them as a "temptation" to his "sex addiction" that he had to purge and eradicate, who then attacked a bunch of massage parlours in Atlanta that were Asian-owned in which the staff was predominantly Asian, with 6 out of 8 of his victims were East Asian women, was somehow coincidentally not motivated at all by the race of the victims, despite him growing up in a nation and society in which racist associations between East Asian women and sexual submission and service are so rampant in the media.

Because, again, he shot up massage parlours. Which, again, are disproportionately staffed by asian sex workers. Look closely at that latter one: remember the made up 90% figure? That's a real figure for NYC in 2019, baby.
A quick word on massage parlors: there's no hoops involved in using them. You don't need to be in the know for where and when to find the elusive species known as the "streetwalker", none of the technological knowhow that goes into accessing online escort networks, it's a business on a street and you walk in. And, this is important, they're *cheap* for their convenience and reliability. You know where one is, and you know that what's inside will result in, well, you know. That's important for folks without the knowledge of accessing online services, since if they're only marginally acquainted with em then not only are they not going to walk away with the service they are soliciting, but also with their credit card number in someone elses hands.
Let me be blunt: is this the first time you're hearing of this deeply unsettling issue? One with an undeniable racial component? Sex work ain't all onlyfans, boyo.

Yeah no, its literally not the first time I'm hearing about this. At all. There's been a lot of coverage on precisely the problem of elusive prostitution because of the Atlanta shooting, its kinda impossible to miss.

None of this is in any way mutually-exclusive with a racial motivation for targeting these victims, so thats a lot of words wasted on just blatantly and irrelevantly not addressing the point at all. Like yeah, a lot of these massage parlours engaged in elusive prostitution are disproportionately staffed by Asian women. And your point is? That somehow means the killer has zero stereotypes about East Asian women? He was magically uninfluenced by any prevailing societal stereotypes about East Asian women in the media and culture he grew up in more generally? That those prevailing stereotypes played zero role in his perception of the women he was killing? Both things can be true you know. It can be true that Asian women are disproportionately involved and employed in these massage parlours and the elusive prostitution often associated with it. And it can also be true that this killer had racist associations between East Asian women and prostitution and sexual servility, that motivated his desire to target them, both for their race and the job he perceived them to work as. Because he's a person raised in a culture and a society where certain stereotypes and racist associations are prevalent, and its only natural that they'd be absorbed and influence how you view people of a particular race. That's normal. These things aren't contradictory at all - in fact, the two actually reinforce and complement each other.

[Gravlen]

I mean, if you want evidence of the racist stereotyping of asian women, you just have to read the thread.

Certain posters have accused them of being trafficed and/or sex workers despite no evidence for either claim being presented. It's just a fair assumption about asian women working at massage parlors, right?

By the way, most of the profiles of the victims so far don't seem fit the profiles of victims of trafficking.

Will you trust The Polaris Project?

Sure. It fits with what I was saying.

[Kubra]

Will you trust The Polaris Project?

Sure. It fits with what I was saying.

Oh, do elaborate.

[Gravlen]

I mean, if you want evidence of the racist stereotyping of asian women, you just have to read the thread.

Certain posters have accused them of being trafficed and/or sex workers despite no evidence for either claim being presented. It's just a fair assumption about asian women working at massage parlors, right?

By the way, most of the profiles of the victims so far don't seem fit the profiles of victims of trafficking.

I mean, being trafficked is not necessarily an accusation as much as it is a worldwide epidemic. And lots of good, innocent people get caught in it. If these ladies were sex workers

Which there so far has been no indication of that I've seen, by the way.

who were pushed into it through human trafficking...that does not make them evil, nor does it make their lives less valuable.

It fits the pattern of dehumanization some people are doing here, though. They could not be independent businesswomen with ethnic roots in asian countries, they are "whores" who were "most likely trafficked" - people without agency. Sexual objects.

[Kubra]

Because, again, he shot up massage parlours. Which, again, are disproportionately staffed by asian sex workers. Look closely at that latter one: remember the made up 90% figure? That's a real figure for NYC in 2019, baby.
A quick word on massage parlors: there's no hoops involved in using them. You don't need to be in the know for where and when to find the elusive species known as the "streetwalker", none of the technological knowhow that goes into accessing online escort networks, it's a business on a street and you walk in. And, this is important, they're *cheap* for their convenience and reliability. You know where one is, and you know that what's inside will result in, well, you know. That's important for folks without the knowledge of accessing online services, since if they're only marginally acquainted with em then not only are they not going to walk away with the service they are soliciting, but also with their credit card number in someone elses hands.
Let me be blunt: is this the first time you're hearing of this deeply unsettling issue? One with an undeniable racial component? Sex work ain't all onlyfans, boyo.

Yeah no, its literally not the first time I'm hearing about this. At all. There's been a lot of coverage on precisely the problem of elusive prostitution because of the Atlanta shooting, its kinda impossible to miss.

None of this is in any way mutually-exclusive with a racial motivation for targeting these victims, so thats a lot of words wasted on just blatantly and irrelevantly not addressing the point at all. Like yeah, a lot of these massage parlours engaged in elusive prostitution are disproportionately staffed by Asian women. And your point is? That somehow means the killer has zero stereotypes about East Asian women? He was magically uninfluenced by any prevailing societal stereotypes about East Asian women in the media and culture he grew up in more generally? That those prevailing stereotypes played zero role in his perception of the women he was killing? Both things can be true you know. It can be true that Asian women are disproportionately involved and employed in these massage parlours and the elusive prostitution often associated with it. And it can also be true that this killer had racist associations between East Asian women and prostitution and sexual servility, that motivated his desire to target them, both for their race and the job he perceived them to work as. Because he's a person raised in a culture and a society where certain stereotypes and racist associations are prevalent, and its only natural that they'd be absorbed and influence how you view people of a particular race. That's normal. These things aren't contradictory at all - in fact, the two actually reinforce and complement each other.

It isn't? then you'd *know" why it is in isolation, but isn't in a general sense, a coincidence.
You know what, let's imagine a somewhat grim scenario: you and I are the killer, and we want to go about killing sex workers as efficiently as possible, without regard for race of course. How shall we go about it, chum?

It fits the pattern of dehumanization some people are doing here, though. They could not be independent businesswomen with ethnic roots in asian countries, they are "whores" who were "most likely trafficked" - people without agency. Sexual objects.

In a massage parlour? In a word: no.
Christ fellas. I tell ya what, coming from a dirt poor and non-white background, plenty of family have been in the trade, including one of my own sisters. There ain't no such thing as a good massage parlour, except of course actual ones.

[Gravlen]

Sure. It fits with what I was saying.

Oh, do elaborate.

OK.

usually mothers between the ages of 35-55

Three of them were over 63 years old, landing outside the "usual" age range. One we don't know much about, so we don't know if she's a mother or not.

They are often lied to or seriously misled about the type of work they’ll be doing,

This does not seem to fit with what we know, since we so far have no indication that anyone there was engaged in sex work. One of the places was reputable enough that Gonzales brought her newly wedded husband to it for a date night, and while it is possible they were looking for sex and he is lying about it now it seems very unlikely based on current information.

Once they are at the massage parlor, traffickers step up their control with a combination of manipulation and blackmail. A woman who speaks little English, whose identification documents are held by traffickers, whose finances are controlled by traffickers, and who has been transported by traffickers to an unfamiliar place, is told that she has the “choice” to provide commercial sex or to leave and take care of herself.

Traffickers have told her that if she leaves no one will help her, that the police are corrupt and won’t listen to her or believe her, that she will be arrested for prostitution or deported, and that her family will be told the shameful story that she is working in the sex industry in the United States, and will be required to pay off her debts. Given this situation, there is no real choice for the victim. Either she stays at the massage parlor, abiding by the rules set by the trafficker, or risks losing everything.

Four of the victims were originally Korean nationals, but according to the Korean consulate in Atlanta said Friday afternoon that three of the victims were US citizens and one was a Korean citizen with a green card. It's difficult to threaten US citizens with deportation.

One was originally a chinese national, but later became a naturalized citizen.She owned the place and was a licensed massage therapist. She arrived in the US in 2006 after entering into marriage with Michael Webb in 2004, and she became a naturalized citized in 2012. Clearly not a victim of trafficking.

Another had been in the US since the 70's, after marrying Mac Peterson, a US citizen. She has a family in the US and there's no indication that her finances or documents are held by anyone.

Yet another has been married for 50 years, and is a grandmother.

The eldest was 74, and she was close to her family whom also lives in the US.

She had stayed close with her relatives, many of whom still live in New York and New Jersey. “She got along with her family so well,” Mr. Lee said in Korean.

Of the people we have information about, the description provided by the Polaris Project of the "typical" victim of trafficking doesn't fit.

[Thermodolia]

I mean, if you want evidence of the racist stereotyping of asian women, you just have to read the thread.

Certain posters have accused them of being trafficed and/or sex workers despite no evidence for either claim being presented. It's just a fair assumption about asian women working at massage parlors, right?

By the way, most of the profiles of the victims so far don't seem fit the profiles of victims of trafficking.

Well that’s because most of these establishments are fronts for prostitution and many prostitutes are victims of sex trafficking especially those from Asian and Hispanic countries.

It’s more of a case of seeing two and two and assuming four

[Thermodolia]

I mean, being trafficked is not necessarily an accusation as much as it is a worldwide epidemic. And lots of good, innocent people get caught in it. If these ladies were sex workers

Which there so far has been no indication of that I've seen, by the way.

who were pushed into it through human trafficking...that does not make them evil, nor does it make their lives less valuable.

It fits the pattern of dehumanization some people are doing here, though. They could not be independent businesswomen with ethnic roots in asian countries, they are "whores" who were "most likely trafficked" - people without agency. Sexual objects.

There’s only one poster who’s done that. All the rest of us see them as people who need help because they are sex workers who might be in danger not because of some racial stereotype.

And take it from a local but those massage parlors are not massage parlors but houses of prostitution. I know the area well

[Kubra]

Oh, do elaborate.

OK.

usually mothers between the ages of 35-55

Three of them were over 63 years old, landing outside the "usual" age range. One we don't know much about, so we don't know if she's a mother or not.

They are often lied to or seriously misled about the type of work they’ll be doing,

This does not seem to fit with what we know, since we so far have no indication that anyone there was engaged in sex work. One of the places was reputable enough that Gonzales brought her newly wedded husband to it for a date night, and while it is possible they were looking for sex and he is lying about it now it seems very unlikely based on current information.

Once they are at the massage parlor, traffickers step up their control with a combination of manipulation and blackmail. A woman who speaks little English, whose identification documents are held by traffickers, whose finances are controlled by traffickers, and who has been transported by traffickers to an unfamiliar place, is told that she has the “choice” to provide commercial sex or to leave and take care of herself.

Traffickers have told her that if she leaves no one will help her, that the police are corrupt and won’t listen to her or believe her, that she will be arrested for prostitution or deported, and that her family will be told the shameful story that she is working in the sex industry in the United States, and will be required to pay off her debts. Given this situation, there is no real choice for the victim. Either she stays at the massage parlor, abiding by the rules set by the trafficker, or risks losing everything.

Four of the victims were originally Korean nationals, but according to the Korean consulate in Atlanta said Friday afternoon that three of the victims were US citizens and one was a Korean citizen with a green card. It's difficult to threaten US citizens with deportation.

One was originally a chinese national, but later became a naturalized citizen.She owned the place and was a licensed massage therapist. She arrived in the US in 2006 after entering into marriage with Michael Webb in 2004, and she became a naturalized citized in 2012. Clearly not a victim of trafficking.

Another had been in the US since the 70's, after marrying Mac Peterson, a US citizen. She has a family in the US and there's no indication that her finances or documents are held by anyone.

Yet another has been married for 50 years, and is a grandmother.

The eldest was 74, and she was close to her family whom also lives in the US.

She had stayed close with her relatives, many of whom still live in New York and New Jersey. “She got along with her family so well,” Mr. Lee said in Korean.

Of the people we have information about, the description provided by the Polaris Project of the "typical" victim of trafficking doesn't fit.

oh, IIIIII see. We're talking past each other.
My apologies, I thought we were talking about the trade in general, not the specific victims. I looked back and notice two other posters really did say that they'd "definitely been trafficked', so now your indignance makes quite a bit more sense. That is of course a *ridiculous* statement. Mea culpa, noon for ya'll is bed time for me.
On the topic of the victims, all three locations are listed on rubmaps. However, it's not true that they'd "definitely been trafficked". If them folks have such knowledge of the inner workings of a trade that presently confounds researchers weeeell they really ought to share it with their local law enforcement officials. And, of course, with details of their citizenship status we can certainly say the chances of trafficking are quite low, ain't no need to speculate.