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Transgender Discussion Thread V: The Fifth Dimension

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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The Unified Missourtama States
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Postby The Unified Missourtama States » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:57 am

Nakena wrote:As for the flag, I've included sources of it's origin right under it which show its a meme flag.

Killing Jewish people is also a meme, perhaps we should put that at the top of the thread as well? A thing being a meme does not make it less hostile.

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:04 am

New Jacobland wrote:Just to clarify:
I've seen people say they are a transgender female. Does this mean they were born male but identify as female or vice versa?

Transgender female is another term for trans women, so yes.

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:07 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Enhanced representation for a marginalised and misunderstood subgroup. Intersectionality at work, my dear Blaatson.


How? What specific gender related issues does this group have that are, even within the Trans community, misunderstood?


A key concept within intersectional theory is the way that oppressions do not simply overlap in an additive manner. Narrative and normative networks intersect in ways that produce unique forms of institutional disadvantage and social exclusion. Not only is this particular group disadvantaged in terms of the wider society's perception that they are performing gender "incorrectly" - with all the negative evaluations and social penalties that this entails - within trans communities themselves they are often similarly viewed as performing "transness" incorrectly. This is because the category of "transgender" has historically been constructed primarily through dialogue with left-libertarian narratives of "liberation" and alliances with (arguably unrelated) "progressive" social causes. A small self-selected group organises community events and deliberately performs formerly negative stereotypes in an exaggerated fashion in an effort to fabricate an "LGBT culture", which is then held up as the authentic and "natural" version of the identity of the "queer nation". This means that when people question the norms it is often perceived as an attack on the community itself - you can see this in the quite aggressively hostile response to Nakena for posting that flag even in a way that is quite obviously "doing a bit". The intersection produces what can be described as a "double exclusion" and an intensified experience of othering for non left-lib LGBT folk in which there is no refuge from them being told they are performing "wrong" and that they need to submit to other groups rather than articulate their own views and interests - useful parallels can, somewhat ironically perhaps, be drawn with bell hooks' criticisms of white feminism and black nationalism.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Heloin » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:16 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
How? What specific gender related issues does this group have that are, even within the Trans community, misunderstood?


A key concept within intersectional theory is the way that oppressions do not simply overlap in an additive manner. Narrative and normative networks intersect in ways that produce unique forms of institutional disadvantage and social exclusion. Not only is this particular group disadvantaged in terms of the wider society's perception that they are performing gender "incorrectly" - with all the negative evaluations and social penalties that this entails - within trans communities themselves they are often similarly viewed as performing "transness" incorrectly. This is because the category of "transgender" has historically been constructed primarily through dialogue with left-libertarian narratives of "liberation" and alliances with (arguably unrelated) "progressive" social causes. A small self-selected group organises community events and deliberately performs formerly negative stereotypes in an exaggerated fashion in an effort to fabricate an "LGBT culture", which is then held up as the authentic and "natural" version of the identity of the "queer nation". This means that when people question the norms it is often perceived as an attack on the community itself - you can see this in the quite aggressively hostile response to Nakena for posting that flag even in a way that is quite obviously "doing a bit". The intersection produces what can be described as a "double exclusion" and an intensified experience of othering for non left-lib LGBT folk in which there is no refuge from them being told they are performing "wrong" and that they need to submit to other groups rather than articulate their own views and interests - useful parallels can, somewhat ironically perhaps, be drawn with bell hooks' criticisms of white feminism and black nationalism.

I think most people would prefer that you don't associate Trans issues with Nazis.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:26 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
How? What specific gender related issues does this group have that are, even within the Trans community, misunderstood?


A key concept within intersectional theory is the way that oppressions do not simply overlap in an additive manner. Narrative and normative networks intersect in ways that produce unique forms of institutional disadvantage and social exclusion. Not only is this particular group disadvantaged in terms of the wider society's perception that they are performing gender "incorrectly" - with all the negative evaluations and social penalties that this entails - within trans communities themselves they are often similarly viewed as performing "transness" incorrectly. This is because the category of "transgender" has historically been constructed primarily through dialogue with left-libertarian narratives of "liberation" and alliances with (arguably unrelated) "progressive" social causes. A small self-selected group organises community events and deliberately performs formerly negative stereotypes in an exaggerated fashion in an effort to fabricate an "LGBT culture", which is then held up as the authentic and "natural" version of the identity of the "queer nation". This means that when people question the norms it is often perceived as an attack on the community itself - you can see this in the quite aggressively hostile response to Nakena for posting that flag even in a way that is quite obviously "doing a bit". The intersection produces what can be described as a "double exclusion" and an intensified experience of othering for non left-lib LGBT folk in which there is no refuge from them being told they are performing "wrong" and that they need to submit to other groups rather than articulate their own views and interests - useful parallels can, somewhat ironically perhaps, be drawn with bell hooks' criticisms of white feminism and black nationalism.


If people feel more institutional oppression because they are a nazi, they could simply stop being one.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:27 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
How? What specific gender related issues does this group have that are, even within the Trans community, misunderstood?


A key concept within intersectional theory is the way that oppressions do not simply overlap in an additive manner. Narrative and normative networks intersect in ways that produce unique forms of institutional disadvantage and social exclusion. Not only is this particular group disadvantaged in terms of the wider society's perception that they are performing gender "incorrectly" - with all the negative evaluations and social penalties that this entails - within trans communities themselves they are often similarly viewed as performing "transness" incorrectly. This is because the category of "transgender" has historically been constructed primarily through dialogue with left-libertarian narratives of "liberation" and alliances with (arguably unrelated) "progressive" social causes. A small self-selected group organises community events and deliberately performs formerly negative stereotypes in an exaggerated fashion in an effort to fabricate an "LGBT culture", which is then held up as the authentic and "natural" version of the identity of the "queer nation". This means that when people question the norms it is often perceived as an attack on the community itself - you can see this in the quite aggressively hostile response to Nakena for posting that flag even in a way that is quite obviously "doing a bit". The intersection produces what can be described as a "double exclusion" and an intensified experience of othering for non left-lib LGBT folk in which there is no refuge from them being told they are performing "wrong" and that they need to submit to other groups rather than articulate their own views and interests - useful parallels can, somewhat ironically perhaps, be drawn with bell hooks' criticisms of white feminism and black nationalism.


Amazing how you managed to say so much without actually answering the question. Did you receive a degree in Debating from the Mike Pence University of Dodging the Question?
Last edited by Trollzyn the Infinite on Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:35 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
A key concept within intersectional theory is the way that oppressions do not simply overlap in an additive manner. Narrative and normative networks intersect in ways that produce unique forms of institutional disadvantage and social exclusion. Not only is this particular group disadvantaged in terms of the wider society's perception that they are performing gender "incorrectly" - with all the negative evaluations and social penalties that this entails - within trans communities themselves they are often similarly viewed as performing "transness" incorrectly. This is because the category of "transgender" has historically been constructed primarily through dialogue with left-libertarian narratives of "liberation" and alliances with (arguably unrelated) "progressive" social causes. A small self-selected group organises community events and deliberately performs formerly negative stereotypes in an exaggerated fashion in an effort to fabricate an "LGBT culture", which is then held up as the authentic and "natural" version of the identity of the "queer nation". This means that when people question the norms it is often perceived as an attack on the community itself - you can see this in the quite aggressively hostile response to Nakena for posting that flag even in a way that is quite obviously "doing a bit". The intersection produces what can be described as a "double exclusion" and an intensified experience of othering for non left-lib LGBT folk in which there is no refuge from them being told they are performing "wrong" and that they need to submit to other groups rather than articulate their own views and interests - useful parallels can, somewhat ironically perhaps, be drawn with bell hooks' criticisms of white feminism and black nationalism.


Amazing how you managed to say so much without actually answering the question. Did you receive a degree in Debating from the Mike Pence University of Dodging the Question?


I do not think that is a real university but I am sorry that you did not find my post as educative and inspiring of reflection as I had hoped. I will endeavour to do better in future.
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:45 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
A key concept within intersectional theory is the way that oppressions do not simply overlap in an additive manner. Narrative and normative networks intersect in ways that produce unique forms of institutional disadvantage and social exclusion. Not only is this particular group disadvantaged in terms of the wider society's perception that they are performing gender "incorrectly" - with all the negative evaluations and social penalties that this entails - within trans communities themselves they are often similarly viewed as performing "transness" incorrectly. This is because the category of "transgender" has historically been constructed primarily through dialogue with left-libertarian narratives of "liberation" and alliances with (arguably unrelated) "progressive" social causes. A small self-selected group organises community events and deliberately performs formerly negative stereotypes in an exaggerated fashion in an effort to fabricate an "LGBT culture", which is then held up as the authentic and "natural" version of the identity of the "queer nation". This means that when people question the norms it is often perceived as an attack on the community itself - you can see this in the quite aggressively hostile response to Nakena for posting that flag even in a way that is quite obviously "doing a bit". The intersection produces what can be described as a "double exclusion" and an intensified experience of othering for non left-lib LGBT folk in which there is no refuge from them being told they are performing "wrong" and that they need to submit to other groups rather than articulate their own views and interests - useful parallels can, somewhat ironically perhaps, be drawn with bell hooks' criticisms of white feminism and black nationalism.


Amazing how you managed to say so much without actually answering the question. Did you receive a degree in Debating from the Mike Pence University of Dodging the Question?


That's the other thing, sure one might be oppressed in multiple ways that amplify each other, but this thread would only explore the trans related oppressions, not the other ones.

Otherwise we can have an intersectionality thread that covers it all, and we can state our various ways in which we are oppressed.

Me, for example, I'm too pretty :blush:
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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:48 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Amazing how you managed to say so much without actually answering the question. Did you receive a degree in Debating from the Mike Pence University of Dodging the Question?


That's the other thing, sure one might be oppressed in multiple ways that amplify each other, but this thread would only explore the trans related oppressions, not the other ones.

Otherwise we can have an intersectionality thread that covers it all, and we can state our various ways in which we are oppressed.

Me, for example, I'm too pretty :blush:

i'm so attractive when i look in the mirror i wonder if it's really me and why and what if i had a different bodyandiseveryonethisuncomfortablyselfaware-
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:53 am

Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
That's the other thing, sure one might be oppressed in multiple ways that amplify each other, but this thread would only explore the trans related oppressions, not the other ones.

Otherwise we can have an intersectionality thread that covers it all, and we can state our various ways in which we are oppressed.

Me, for example, I'm too pretty :blush:

i'm so attractive when i look in the mirror i wonder if it's really me and why and what if i had a different bodyandiseveryonethisuncomfortablyselfaware-


It makes me dreadfully conscious that I am a poorly configured nervous system badly piloting a meat puppet.
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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:55 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:i'm so attractive when i look in the mirror i wonder if it's really me and why and what if i had a different bodyandiseveryonethisuncomfortablyselfaware-


It makes me dreadfully conscious that I am a poorly configured nervous system badly piloting a meat puppet.

stop violating the nap by stealing my thoughts out my head, that's my intellectual property.
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:58 am

I didn't know I had the same height as Taylor Swift, TIL.

I'm 180 cm/5'11" and that is taller than most women, but like I've always been tall, even as a kid. I remember I was the first or second tallest in my class, until middle school and high school that is, but now I get to be seen as taller, especially living as a woman, and not a man. I think the average height for American women is 5'4" and the average height for American men is 5'9", but shorter men don't stick out as much as taller women.

I like my height, even if one thinks it's a "clockable" feature.
Last edited by Auzkhia on Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:08 am

Auzkhia wrote:I didn't know I had the same height as Taylor Swift, TIL.

I'm 180 cm/5'11" and that is taller than most women, but like I've always been tall, even as a kid. I remember I was the first or second tallest in my class, until middle school and high school that is, but now I get to be seen as taller, especially living as a woman, and not a man. I think the average height for American women is 5'4" and the average height for American men is 5'9", but shorter men don't stick out as much as taller women.

I like my height, even if one thinks it's a "clockable" feature.

i've always been kind of tall, but slowed down growing in middle school and am like 5'6-7 rn. it's an ok height, i might get taller, but it's fine either way. pretty set in the middle, thanks genetic lottery.
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Postby Grenartia » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:01 am

Shit, was not expecting the thread to reach 500 so quickly. Thanks for picking up the dropped ball.
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:03 am

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Nakena wrote:As for the flag, I've included sources of it's origin right under it which show its a meme flag.

Killing Jewish people is also a meme, perhaps we should put that at the top of the thread as well? A thing being a meme does not make it less hostile.

Nak's flag comes from another faction that was purged by Hitler. I think its safe to say that either way, Nak does NOT support genocide.
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Postby Grenartia » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:04 am

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Nakena wrote:As for the flag, I've included sources of it's origin right under it which show its a meme flag.

Killing Jewish people is also a meme, perhaps we should put that at the top of the thread as well? A thing being a meme does not make it less hostile.


If I had understood that the thread was going to hit 500 while I was asleep, I would have posted the new one and gone with some aesthetic changes Gio suggested.
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The Unified Missourtama States
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Postby The Unified Missourtama States » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:49 am

The Reformed American Republic wrote:Nak's flag comes from another faction that was purged by Hitler. I think its safe to say that either way, Nak does NOT support genocide.

Strasserism is very antisemitic, they were shunned by Hitler because they wanted a more social economy (not because they loved inclusiveness), they very much hated the Jewish:
Wikipedia wrote:Strasserism became a distinct strand of Nazism that whilst holding on to previous Nazi ideals such as antisemitism and palingenetic ultranationalism, added a strong critique of capitalism on economic antisemitic grounds and framed this in the demand for a more worker-based approach to economics.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism]
Last edited by The Unified Missourtama States on Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kowani » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:52 am

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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:08 pm

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Nak's flag comes from another faction that was purged by Hitler. I think its safe to say that either way, Nak does NOT support genocide.

Strasserism is very antisemitic, they were shunned by Hitler because they wanted a more social economy (not because they loved inclusiveness), they very much hated the Jewish:
Wikipedia wrote:Strasserism became a distinct strand of Nazism that whilst holding on to previous Nazi ideals such as antisemitism and palingenetic ultranationalism, added a strong critique of capitalism on economic antisemitic grounds and framed this in the demand for a more worker-based approach to economics.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism]

To be honest, I thought their antisemitism was less severe for some reason. I digress though, as I never thought of the ideology as good or something to be implemented.

Since the flag is not an official flag of the Nazi regime, I don't see much of a problem with Nak being edgy though. I doubt she is actually a fascist.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:09 pm

Auzkhia wrote:I didn't know I had the same height as Taylor Swift, TIL.

I'm 180 cm/5'11" and that is taller than most women, but like I've always been tall, even as a kid. I remember I was the first or second tallest in my class, until middle school and high school that is, but now I get to be seen as taller, especially living as a woman, and not a man. I think the average height for American women is 5'4" and the average height for American men is 5'9", but shorter men don't stick out as much as taller women.

I like my height, even if one thinks it's a "clockable" feature.


...Yeah, as a short man I can safely say you’re dead wrong about short men not standing out as much. I've literally been made fun of for my height (5'3) and I'm generally at eye-level with most women while most men seem to tower over me.

Except Mexican men, who are often about as short as I am.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:09 pm

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:Killing Jewish people is also a meme, perhaps we should put that at the top of the thread as well?


Nah.

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:-snip-


Not exactly. It's a bit more complicated:


For everything else, you got a TG. :)
Last edited by Nakena on Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:10 pm


Let's be honest, this is to distract people from the GOP's economic failures. It throws red meat to a segment of the population who are extreme culture warriors, getting the GOP votes without actually making people's lives better. The GOP did the same crap a few years back with a transgender bathroom bill.
Last edited by The Reformed American Republic on Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Owlograd
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Postby Owlograd » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:14 pm

Hello my beautiful peeps! I may be suffering from an illness but I can still campaign for trans-gender rights! (despite not being one)
Thanks guys. :)

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:35 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:I didn't know I had the same height as Taylor Swift, TIL.

I'm 180 cm/5'11" and that is taller than most women, but like I've always been tall, even as a kid. I remember I was the first or second tallest in my class, until middle school and high school that is, but now I get to be seen as taller, especially living as a woman, and not a man. I think the average height for American women is 5'4" and the average height for American men is 5'9", but shorter men don't stick out as much as taller women.

I like my height, even if one thinks it's a "clockable" feature.


...Yeah, as a short man I can safely say you’re dead wrong about short men not standing out as much. I've literally been made fun of for my height (5'3) and I'm generally at eye-level with most women while most men seem to tower over me.

Except Mexican men, who are often about as short as I am.

I'm sorry. Though I definitely can see that, but I meant like, more people can think of a short man than a tall woman, regardless of teasing or bullying.
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:I didn't know I had the same height as Taylor Swift, TIL.

I'm 180 cm/5'11" and that is taller than most women, but like I've always been tall, even as a kid. I remember I was the first or second tallest in my class, until middle school and high school that is, but now I get to be seen as taller, especially living as a woman, and not a man. I think the average height for American women is 5'4" and the average height for American men is 5'9", but shorter men don't stick out as much as taller women.

I like my height, even if one thinks it's a "clockable" feature.

i've always been kind of tall, but slowed down growing in middle school and am like 5'6-7 rn. it's an ok height, i might get taller, but it's fine either way. pretty set in the middle, thanks genetic lottery.

My younger cis sister is 5'7" and my fiancée, who is transfem, is 5'8" and they look about the same height.

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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:38 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:

Let's be honest, this is to distract people from the GOP's economic failures. It throws red meat to a segment of the population who are extreme culture warriors, getting the GOP votes without actually making people's lives better. The GOP did the same crap a few years back with a transgender bathroom bill.

this is accurate, yes
Adjunct Professor of Cultural Marxism at the Frankfurt School
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