NationStates

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:33 am**

Vorausen wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
First becoming transgender is an interesting way to put it. Do you become cisgender? Second, puberty blockers are used precisely because children might not be clear on their gender (though the fact that we accept that children are cisgender kinda shows a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to this point). Puberty blockers put off puberty until a child is old enough to have settled into their gender identity. It is reversible by taking a child off the blockers, though more research is needed into the long term effects of extended use. By putting of puberty, a child is able to more easily transition their body to match their gender, because they do not have to remove the changes that occur due to puberty. Doctors will not be performing surgery on children. Instead children will socially transition. This means they will live as the gender they identify as, whatever that means to them.

I say becoming transgender because I believe that everybody has a biological gender whether they like it or not. You are brown either male or female. I’m not saying you shouldn’t change gender, but biologically you are your birth gender, not the gender you’re any. If you want to be a different gender that is fine, I will respect that and call you by your preferred gender. I’m sorry if I sound like I’m not being clear, I’m trying to put in the right words without offending or insulting anyone.

This is some school grade arguements here. Sex and Gender are completely two different things. Sex is biological. XX, XY. Gender is a social construct. In simplest terms, its a spectrum that doesn't necessarily begin or end with masculine or feminine. If someone wants to slide on over to the side that makes them comfortable in their skin, just let them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:47 am**

Countesia wrote:
Vorausen wrote:
I say becoming transgender because I believe that everybody has a biological gender whether they like it or not. You are brown either male or female. I’m not saying you shouldn’t change gender, but biologically you are your birth gender, not the gender you’re any. If you want to be a different gender that is fine, I will respect that and call you by your preferred gender. I’m sorry if I sound like I’m not being clear, I’m trying to put in the right words without offending or insulting anyone.

This is some school grade arguements here. Sex and Gender are completely two different things. Sex is biological. XX, XY. Gender is a social construct. In simplest terms, its a spectrum that doesn't necessarily begin or end with masculine or feminine. If someone wants to slide on over to the side that makes them comfortable in their skin, just let them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ehh, your argument is still quite overly simplistic.

So called biological sex is quite a bit more complicated than most people think. Like, chromosomes are part of genetic sex but they can vary, like any sex trait, this is called intersex, which exists independently of being transgender or cisgender. But with trans people specifically, sex can change, and I don't mean
SRS, hrt changes hormones and that does result in a lot of effects. Through this trans women are female and trans men are male. Like human understanding of sex is a social construct because it's the interpretation of observing natural phenomena.

And one objection or criticism I have when people say "sex and gender are different" is that can leave room for someone to say that I'm a "male woman" which is not at all true. For the most part sex and gender are similar though not exactly the same, but are society's ways of categorizing natural things, behaviors, identity, and many other facets to a person.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:52 am**

Countesia wrote:
Vorausen wrote:
I say becoming transgender because I believe that everybody has a biological gender whether they like it or not. You are brown either male or female. I’m not saying you shouldn’t change gender, but biologically you are your birth gender, not the gender you’re any. If you want to be a different gender that is fine, I will respect that and call you by your preferred gender. I’m sorry if I sound like I’m not being clear, I’m trying to put in the right words without offending or insulting anyone.

This is some school grade arguements here. Sex and Gender are completely two different things. Sex is biological. XX, XY. Gender is a social construct. In simplest terms, its a spectrum that doesn't necessarily begin or end with masculine or feminine. If someone wants to slide on over to the side that makes them comfortable in their skin, just let them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I would go so far as to say that there is likely a biological component to transgenderism, namely in the development of the brain. While chromosomes impact this development, there are numerous other factors involved that alter the way in which the brain develops, and there ilare certain very key and important differences between how certain portions of the brain are expressed between the typical chromosomal male and chromosomal female of humans; I have read more than a few studies that indicate that transgender women do in fact have a more "feminine" brain in these structures than one would expect, with the areas that you would typically see expressed in chromosomal women expressed in transgender women. Basically, while outwardly they have the physical characteristics of a male, certain developmental differences result in a more feminine brain because biological development is not hard and fast.

From a more psychological standpoint, this would in turn cause the dissonance.

Biological development does not end at chromosomes, as they merely inform (albeit to a significant degree) the early development of a person, however it is by no means predestined that it will work out exactly as coded.

That said, I would hazard against stating Gender is a spectrum, as it confuses what the concept of a social construct is. It can be a spectrum through certain cultural lenses, however most often it is not. Few societies and cultures view gender in that matter, and while modern western society in general has redefined gender in this manner, it is still largely view in the binary as the conception of how sex is played in society is difficult to conceptualize outside of this.

Now, contrary to what a lot of other people would say, redefining the concepts of gender in society is not a bad thing in the least; cultural constructs arise in no small part from redefining previous concepts, and it is *constantly* happening. Cultural constructs by their nature are not immutable, and instead are quite readily altered. It's the entire point of cultural and social constructs. People who think that culture is immutable fail to realize that if this were true, culture by and large would simply cease to exist (or the entire world would be in a singular monoculture). So it's largely a moot argument, but an important point to consider and bring up, as many people don't view gender as a spectrum specifically because of their social and cultural background, and no amount of stating otherwise will convince them because from a cultural standpoint the argument simply isn't true. It *can* be, and one could argue that certain micro-cultural shifts have led to microcosms where this is true, but from a pure cultural study standpoint you might as well be telling the person the sun rises in the West and sets in the East.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:08 am**

Vorausen wrote:I’m mean this with all best regards, but if you believe in something hard enough, your mind will try to make it reality, even if it is not necessarily true. For example, if I believe I’m allergic to say shrimp, even if I’m not allergic to shrimp, if I have a strong enough belief that I’m allergic to shrimp, I may get an allergic reaction. I don’t want to say that being transgender is the placebo effect, I’m just trying to say that I don’t think anyone is born transgender. People become what they believe.

Actual nonsense. Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about here.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:11 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Vorausen wrote:I’m mean this with all best regards, but if you believe in something hard enough, your mind will try to make it reality, even if it is not necessarily true. For example, if I believe I’m allergic to say shrimp, even if I’m not allergic to shrimp, if I have a strong enough belief that I’m allergic to shrimp, I may get an allergic reaction. I don’t want to say that being transgender is the placebo effect, I’m just trying to say that I don’t think anyone is born transgender. People become what they believe.

Actual nonsense. Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about here.

All I was saying is that I think no one is born transgender, you choose to be transgender in my opinion. But of course that’s just my opinion, it doesn’t discredit anybody else’s opinion.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:12 am**

Vorausen wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Actual nonsense. Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about here.

All I was saying is that I think no one is born transgender, you choose to be transgender in my opinion. But of course that’s just my opinion, it doesn’t discredit anybody else’s opinion.

Well you can continue to think that then, but it doesn't mean that it's correct.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:17 am**

Vorausen wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Actual nonsense. Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about here.

All I was saying is that I think no one is born transgender, you choose to be transgender in my opinion. But of course that’s just my opinion, it doesn’t discredit anybody else’s opinion.

Alright, I'll bite. Why do you think that? What evidence is there? Plenty of people have provided evidence to the contrary, so what evidence do you hold as justification for your "opinion?"

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:39 am**

I suspect that there will be a variety of biological factors that will increase the chance of someone being transgender, but not one big deterministic thing. One of the big wrinkles in the discourse is that while some speculate about potential differences in brain structures, hormone levels pre-birth and so on in order to appeal to supposedly "objective" biological legitimacy, it is very apparent that if these were discovered any focus on them in medical or social decision making would be dismissed by many of the same people as transmedicalist gatekeeping.

I understand why people use the argument, but very often you have different people in a conversation - or even the same person at different times - making points that aren't particularly compatible in terms of the ontology of gender.

This possibly contributes a little to some of the more intelligent critics perceiving a lack of truthiness to the discourse, but it's far from a unique issue or a gotcha moment. There are socialists who disagree on what class is, feminists who disagree on what womanhood is, and issues of race are full of contradictory claims. No ideology is a hive mind.

What it is, if anything, that is distinctive here is that online transgender communities tend to be very defensive and very suspicious of people trying to unpick stories. This is understandable because they go to people's very sense of who they are, but I suspect it does play into the idea that there is some unique flimsiness going on just because this is what we naturally perceive when people are extremely defensive.

It is very difficult to sell something to people who are unsure about it if some of the descriptors on the box don't entirely fit together and questions or reservations about what you're selling are shut down with haste. Internal discussions also tend to collapse into caricatures of transmedicalists and transtrenders. I don't think there's an easy solution to it or that anyone is necessarily at fault, if anything perhaps it might help to get less angry at the latest explosion in your social media timeline or to give a friend a bit of benefit of doubt.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:58 am**

Montana Senate advances bill barring transgender athletes

The Montana Senate advanced Tuesday a bill that would ban transgender athletes from participating in school and college sports according to the gender with which they identify, but amended it to be voided if the federal government withholds funding from the state because of the measure. The bill advanced in a 29-21 vote in the GOP-controlled Senate. The Senate is expected to vote on the measure for a third time before sending it back to the House for final approval. Republican Gov. Greg Gianforte has not commented on whether he would sign the bill into law.

Before voting in favor of the measure, the Senate amended the bill to be voided if the U.S. Department of Education withholds federal education funding from the state, a concern stemming from an executive order prohibiting discrimination on the basis of gender identity signed by President Joe Biden his first day in office. That amendment passed in a 27-23 vote.

The Montana Senate is also considering a measure that would ban gender-affirming surgeries for transgender minors. That bill, already passed by the House, has not yet been scheduled for a vote on the Senate floor.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:39 pm**

Vorausen wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
First becoming transgender is an interesting way to put it. Do you become cisgender? Second, puberty blockers are used precisely because children might not be clear on their gender (though the fact that we accept that children are cisgender kinda shows a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to this point). Puberty blockers put off puberty until a child is old enough to have settled into their gender identity. It is reversible by taking a child off the blockers, though more research is needed into the long term effects of extended use. By putting of puberty, a child is able to more easily transition their body to match their gender, because they do not have to remove the changes that occur due to puberty. Doctors will not be performing surgery on children. Instead children will socially transition. This means they will live as the gender they identify as, whatever that means to them.

1. I say becoming transgender because I believe that everybody has a biological gender whether they like it or not. 2. You are brown either male or female. 3. I’m not saying you shouldn’t change gender, but biologically you are your birth gender, not the gender you’re any. If you want to be a different gender that is fine, I will respect that and call you by your preferred gender. 4. I’m sorry if I sound like I’m not being clear, I’m trying to put in the right words without offending or insulting anyone.

1. Gender=/=Biological. Gender=Psychological.
2. Male and Female is a color?
3. Can you into English?
4. You're not doing a good job.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:55 pm**

Allowing people to change gender? How radically woke is this society?

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:10 pm**

Sincluda wrote:
Kowani wrote:Montana Senate advances bill barring transgender athletes

The Montana Senate advanced Tuesday a bill that would ban transgender athletes from participating in school and college sports according to the gender with which they identify, but amended it to be voided if the federal government withholds funding from the state because of the measure. The bill advanced in a 29-21 vote in the GOP-controlled Senate. The Senate is expected to vote on the measure for a third time before sending it back to the House for final approval. Republican Gov. Greg Gianforte has not commented on whether he would sign the bill into law.

Before voting in favor of the measure, the Senate amended the bill to be voided if the U.S. Department of Education withholds federal education funding from the state, a concern stemming from an executive order prohibiting discrimination on the basis of gender identity signed by President Joe Biden his first day in office. That amendment passed in a 27-23 vote.

The Montana Senate is also considering a measure that would ban gender-affirming surgeries for transgender minors. That bill, already passed by the House, has not yet been scheduled for a vote on the Senate floor.

Thankfully, a similar bill did not pass in my state. I want to talk about the testosterone argument for this bill. It’s so idiotic. If the issue is testosterone, make it about testosterone. Test athletes for testosterone levels and put them in leagues based on that, if testosterone is what you actually care about.

This will bring shenanigans.

Are there testosterone blockers? That temporarily block it, then you do the test, then you go off the blocker, and perform.

And can we have levels based on length as well? I'm a pretty decent basketball player, but I lose out to people who are 20cm taller than me.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:43 pm**

Vorausen wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Actual nonsense. Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about here.

All I was saying is that I think no one is born transgender, you choose to be transgender in my opinion. But of course that’s just my opinion, it doesn’t discredit anybody else’s opinion.

I didn't choose to be trans. If I had a choice, I would choose not to be trans. I wasn't given that option. When I was in grade 6 I cried myself to sleep consistently because I felt wrong. I was supposed to be a boy, but I wasn't. Someone else here mentioned an interview from the BBC with Abigail Thorn, and I think, while her statements do not apply to every trans person, it is very interesting and well put. I think it could be very useful to people who are trying to understand transgender people. Some people do choose to be trans, they don't have dysphoria and simply prefer life as a gender they were not assigned at birth, but most don't. For me, and what seems to be most trans people, living as my birth gender was torture. I was not able to do it. I don't think I'd be alive today if I tried. I simply could not live life as just a boy. So I didn't. I decided to live life as who I knew I was since long before I knew what 'trans' was.

The idea that no one is naturally trans is not an opinion. Its a belief, yes, but an opinion implies no known truth. That belief is contrary to biology, psychology, sociology, and the lived experience of actual trans people. It is false. It is provably false. There are a lot of things that you can have opinions on. Are trans people naturally advantaged is sports? Is being naturally trans a result of biology, psychology, genetics, spirituality, or something else? Can a good Christian be trans? All of these are questions with a debate, and an opinion. I have my opinions, you probably have yours, there is some reasonable room for debate. But some people are, definitely, provably, undeniably, naturally transgender. If you disagree, you disagree with every known way we have with interacting with the world. You are choosing to be illogical.

And I understand. You are uneducated on trans issues. That is okay. You have respect, and for that, I am thankful. That is all I need from you. But you came here to learn I am here to teach. If you want to begin to understand transgender people, this is the first thing you need to learn. Thank you.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:18 pm**

Riviere Renard wrote:
Vorausen wrote:
All I was saying is that I think no one is born transgender, you choose to be transgender in my opinion. But of course that’s just my opinion, it doesn’t discredit anybody else’s opinion.

I didn't choose to be trans. If I had a choice, I would choose not to be trans. I wasn't given that option. When I was in grade 6 I cried myself to sleep consistently because I felt wrong. I was supposed to be a boy, but I wasn't. Someone else here mentioned an interview from the BBC with Abigail Thorn, and I think, while her statements do not apply to every trans person, it is very interesting and well put. I think it could be very useful to people who are trying to understand transgender people. Some people do choose to be trans, they don't have dysphoria and simply prefer life as a gender they were not assigned at birth, but most don't. For me, and what seems to be most trans people, living as my birth gender was torture. I was not able to do it. I don't think I'd be alive today if I tried. I simply could not live life as just a boy. So I didn't. I decided to live life as who I knew I was since long before I knew what 'trans' was.

The idea that no one is naturally trans is not an opinion. Its a belief, yes, but an opinion implies no known truth. That belief is contrary to biology, psychology, sociology, and the lived experience of actual trans people. It is false. It is provably false. There are a lot of things that you can have opinions on. Are trans people naturally advantaged is sports? Is being naturally trans a result of biology, psychology, genetics, spirituality, or something else? Can a good Christian be trans? All of these are questions with a debate, and an opinion. I have my opinions, you probably have yours, there is some reasonable room for debate. But some people are, definitely, provably, undeniably, naturally transgender. If you disagree, you disagree with every known way we have with interacting with the world. You are choosing to be illogical.

And I understand. You are uneducated on trans issues. That is okay. You have respect, and for that, I am thankful. That is all I need from you. But you came here to learn I am here to teach. If you want to begin to understand transgender people, this is the first thing you need to learn. Thank you.

For real even though I'm not trans myself if I had been given a choice I think I'd have chosen to be born a girl instead. But unfortunately this isn't a video game where you get to select your sex before you start playing. You don't get to pick what you're born as, so I sympathize with LGBT folks in that regard. I won't pretend to know what you guys go through but you have my wholehearted support. I actually feel bad because I didn't used to be as supportive of transfolk and fell victim to the same having the same misconceptions and using the same arguments that a lot of well-intentioned-but-still-ignorant people have when it comes to trans rights.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:32 am**

Okay, so I was writing something earlier and then just after I'd written it, I looked back and thought "actually, is that right?" so I thought I'd come to a place where people know more about it than me and get some perspective.

To my mind, there are two further points to consider about ethnicity versus cultural identity in the more general sense. Firstly, it's not possible to lose ethnicities. John might, for example, become fully American instead of Chinese and feel wholly unable to reconcile his present sense of cultural self with his ideas about being Chinese but he'll never not be someone who was Chinese. In this sense, ethnicity is a bit like what people are trying to do with cis-male and cis-female (well, I say trying, it may be incidental), i.e. explicitly acknowledge this journey of [illegible, probably the] gender identity.

Obviously the paragraph continues but that's the relevant part.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:34 am**

Necroghastia wrote:
Vorausen wrote:
All I was saying is that I think no one is born transgender, you choose to be transgender in my opinion. But of course that’s just my opinion, it doesn’t discredit anybody else’s opinion.

Alright, I'll bite. Why do you think that? What evidence is there? Plenty of people have provided evidence to the contrary, so what evidence do you hold as justification for your "opinion?"

To be frank with you, I hold these beliefs because I it is also my religious beliefs. I know I can’t use “religion” as evidence for my point (Unless all of you had the same religious beliefs as me). Do I think changing genders is wrong and immoral? Yes I do, but I’m not going to beat you up or condemn you for it. I may think what your doing is wrong, but you are free to choose and live how you want. I think many get the impression that Christians are against transgender people and while I sadly can say a small percentage are (in the sense that they try to “convert” and “control” other people) the majority are not. My beliefs say to love my neighbor like myself, and we are all neighbors on the earth. So that means I will treat all of you with love and dignity.

Now my Bible says that god created a man and a woman, not a transgender woman or man nor a man and a man, a woman and a woman etc. but of course this means nothing to most people because like I said that is my religious beliefs. So, I really have no other reason other than Bible on why I believe that.

Lastly I would like to end off here by saying that while we can all use evidence to try to prove our points, at the end of the day everything we say about this topic is an opinion and all subjective.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:33 am**

Vorausen wrote:Now my Bible says that god created a man and a woman, not a transgender woman or man nor a man and a man, a woman and a woman etc. but of course this means nothing to most people because like I said that is my religious beliefs. So, I really have no other reason other than Bible on why I believe that.

My Bibles say that too, but the difference is that I don't interpret them literally. Interpreting the Bible literally just puts one down the path to things like young Earth creationism and other such nonsense, so what it says regarding gender shouldn't be taken literally.

Vorausen wrote:Lastly I would like to end off here by saying that while we can all use evidence to try to prove our points, at the end of the day everything we say about this topic is an opinion and all subjective.

Code for: "No matter what evidence my opponents present, I am going to devalue it regardless, so it'd be best if you don't try. Please, don't try. Please."

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:59 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Vorausen wrote:Now my Bible says that god created a man and a woman, not a transgender woman or man nor a man and a man, a woman and a woman etc. but of course this means nothing to most people because like I said that is my religious beliefs. So, I really have no other reason other than Bible on why I believe that.

My Bibles say that too, but the difference is that I don't interpret them literally. Interpreting the Bible literally just puts one down the path to things like young Earth creationism and other such nonsense, so what it says regarding gender shouldn't be taken literally.

Vorausen wrote:Lastly I would like to end off here by saying that while we can all use evidence to try to prove our points, at the end of the day everything we say about this topic is an opinion and all subjective.

Code for: "No matter what evidence my opponents present, I am going to devalue it regardless, so it'd be best if you don't try. Please, don't try. Please."

If I were to interpret the Bible literally, I would be in jail for murder and assault. Personally for me the Old Testament is under a different era, and instead we under the era of grace, I don’t believe that we have to follow all those rules because I believe by following Jesus and loving god, everything will follow. If a transgender person wants to become a Christian go ahead, god still loves you, if you don’t want to believe in god that is fine with me, because it is your choice.

I ended off my discussion with “everything we say is opinion” not to devalue anyone (because that would also devalue my argument and therefore would be hypocritical) but to instead highlight the fact that we may not be able to convince each other (and nor should we try to) but we can learn about each other and gain some new information about what we think.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:05 am**

Vorausen wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Alright, I'll bite. Why do you think that? What evidence is there? Plenty of people have provided evidence to the contrary, so what evidence do you hold as justification for your "opinion?"

To be frank with you, I hold these beliefs because I it is also my religious beliefs. I know I can’t use “religion” as evidence for my point (Unless all of you had the same religious beliefs as me). Do I think changing genders is wrong and immoral? Yes I do, but I’m not going to beat you up or condemn you for it. I may think what your doing is wrong, but you are free to choose and live how you want. I think many get the impression that Christians are against transgender people and while I sadly can say a small percentage are (in the sense that they try to “convert” and “control” other people) the majority are not. My beliefs say to love my neighbor like myself, and we are all neighbors on the earth. So that means I will treat all of you with love and dignity.

You aren't treating people with love and dignity when you believe that they are doing something wrong by being transgender.

Now my Bible says that god created a man and a woman, not a transgender woman or man nor a man and a man, a woman and a woman etc. but of course this means nothing to most people because like I said that is my religious beliefs. So, I really have no other reason other than Bible on why I believe that.

Lastly I would like to end off here by saying that while we can all use evidence to try to prove our points, at the end of the day everything we say about this topic is an opinion and all subjective.

Consider, in light of your Christian beliefs, that God made wheat, but not bread, and grapes, but not wine, so that we could share in some way in the miracle of creation. As such, why would anyone believe that God takes issue with people who create using the clay of their own body? Trans people create themselves from the materials provided by God, Christians should look at that as a blessing.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:11 am**

Vorausen wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:My Bibles say that too, but the difference is that I don't interpret them literally. Interpreting the Bible literally just puts one down the path to things like young Earth creationism and other such nonsense, so what it says regarding gender shouldn't be taken literally.

If I were to interpret the Bible literally, I would be in jail for murder and assault.

I'm not even gonna touch...whatever this is...with a bargepole.

Vorausen wrote:Personally for me the Old Testament is under a different era, and instead we under the era of grace, I don’t believe that we have to follow all those rules because I believe by following Jesus and loving god, everything will follow. If a transgender person wants to become a Christian go ahead, god still loves you, if you don’t want to believe in god that is fine with me, because it is your choice.

And yet you took a literal interpretation of it in terms of gender references, why? Why the cherrypicking?

Vorausen wrote:I ended off my discussion with “everything we say is opinion” not to devalue anyone (because that would also devalue my argument and therefore would be hypocritical) but to instead highlight the fact that we may not be able to convince each other (and nor should we try to) but we can learn about each other and gain some new information about what we think.

It would, but you haven't really presented any evidence to speak of, so...

And it actually is devaluing evidence, because how can we "learn about each other and gain some new information about what we think" if evidence is dismissed as being ultimately irrelevant? Hence why I think this is actually a ploy, because there is an awareness that the weight of evidence does not really favour your side, so pre-empting it by saying stuff like this acts as an attempt at a deterrent for any evidence to even be presented at all...

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:15 am**

Ifreann wrote:
Vorausen wrote:
To be frank with you, I hold these beliefs because I it is also my religious beliefs. I know I can’t use “religion” as evidence for my point (Unless all of you had the same religious beliefs as me). Do I think changing genders is wrong and immoral? Yes I do, but I’m not going to beat you up or condemn you for it. I may think what your doing is wrong, but you are free to choose and live how you want. I think many get the impression that Christians are against transgender people and while I sadly can say a small percentage are (in the sense that they try to “convert” and “control” other people) the majority are not. My beliefs say to love my neighbor like myself, and we are all neighbors on the earth. So that means I will treat all of you with love and dignity.

You aren't treating people with love and dignity when you believe that they are doing something wrong by being transgender.

I have had a Islamic friend, an atheist, a gay friend, and a recovering alcoholic dad, and your saying that because I disagree with their life choices that I don’t live them and appreciate them fully? I feel sometimes that is what people outside of Christianity don’t understand, I don’t know if you have ever had a bad experience with the church, if the church condemned you or any of your friends and family, but if that’s the case let me repeat that is not true Christianity. I don’t believe that people should be transgender, but if you feel so, then go ahead, I will support you unconditionally. Because I believe that Jesus calls us to love not to hate.

Ifreann wrote:
Vorausen wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:
Now my Bible says that god created a man and a woman, not a transgender woman or man nor a man and a man, a woman and a woman etc. but of course this means nothing to most people because like I said that is my religious beliefs. So, I really have no other reason other than Bible on why I believe that.

Lastly I would like to end off here by saying that while we can all use evidence to try to prove our points, at the end of the day everything we say about this topic is an opinion and all subjective.

Consider, in light of your Christian beliefs, that God made wheat, but not bread, and grapes, but not wine, so that we could share in some way in the miracle of creation. As such, why would anyone believe that God takes issue with people who create using the clay of their own body? Trans people create themselves from the materials provided by God, Christians should look at that as a blessing.

That is your interpretation of the Bible, if you yourself are a believer in a god (or even Christianity ) you have every right to think that. I think god has blessed humanity with different perspectives and opinions, so are not wrong to think that. Even in my own church there’s different opinions and beliefs exactly and interpretations of the Bible. Look at how many denominations there are in Christianity!

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:17 am**

^Oh no, messed up quotes, resulting in a mini quote pyramid!

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:26 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Vorausen wrote:If I were to interpret the Bible literally, I would be in jail for murder and assault.

I'm not even gonna touch...whatever this is...with a bargepole.

Vorausen wrote:Personally for me the Old Testament is under a different era, and instead we under the era of grace, I don’t believe that we have to follow all those rules because I believe by following Jesus and loving god, everything will follow. If a transgender person wants to become a Christian go ahead, god still loves you, if you don’t want to believe in god that is fine with me, because it is your choice.

And yet you took a literal interpretation of it in terms of gender references, why? Why the cherrypicking?

Vorausen wrote:I ended off my discussion with “everything we say is opinion” not to devalue anyone (because that would also devalue my argument and therefore would be hypocritical) but to instead highlight the fact that we may not be able to convince each other (and nor should we try to) but we can learn about each other and gain some new information about what we think.

It would, but you haven't really presented any evidence to speak of, so...

And it actually is devaluing evidence, because how can we "learn about each other and gain some new information about what we think" if evidence is dismissed as being ultimately irrelevant? Hence why I think this is actually a ploy, because there is an awareness that the weight of evidence does not really favour your side, so pre-empting it by saying stuff like this acts as an attempt at a deterrent for any evidence to even be presented at all...

The quotes of draw this opinion from are Deuteronomy 22:5 and Deuteronomy 23:1 which say and I quote

A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak

The other one which I consider to not be too PG 13, I shall summarize. It basically says that men whose reproductive organs are removed shall not enter the presence of the lord.

A literal interpretation would say that getting a survey to remove you reproductive organs as a male (no matter the reason) is absolutely wrong and that women cannot wear men’s clothing.

I don’t believe that I simply don’t.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:34 am**

Vorausen wrote:The other one which I consider to not be too PG 13, I shall summarize. It basically says that men whose reproductive organs are removed shall not enter the presence of the lord.

So? What does that prove? Not all trans people have surgery, so it's hardly an injunction against trans people...

Vorausen wrote:A literal interpretation would say that getting a survey to remove you reproductive organs as a male (no matter the reason) is absolutely wrong and that women cannot wear men’s clothing.

I don’t believe that I simply don’t.

Doesn't really answer my question as to why you are cherrypicking some parts of the Bible in a literal manner and not others.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:36 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Vorausen wrote:The other one which I consider to not be too PG 13, I shall summarize. It basically says that men whose reproductive organs are removed shall not enter the presence of the lord.

So? What does that prove? Not all trans people have surgery, so it's hardly an injunction against trans people...

Vorausen wrote:A literal interpretation would say that getting a survey to remove you reproductive organs as a male (no matter the reason) is absolutely wrong and that women cannot wear men’s clothing.

I don’t believe that I simply don’t.

Doesn't really answer my question as to why you are cherrypicking some parts of the Bible in a literal manner and not others.

Because the Bible is all based on interpretation, and I interpret that some parts are meant to be taken literally and other parts not so much. I can try to explain my reasoning but you can obviously have the choice to ignore it.

NationStates

Trans Discussion Thread: Catgirls Don't Need Litterboxes