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Trans Discussion Thread: Catgirls Don't Need Litterboxes

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Necroghastia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:23 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Mutualist Chaos wrote:
If your first sentence were accurate, the attempts by Idaho and Texas legislatures to eradicate trans people wouldn't have even been introduced, let alone proceeding as they are.

Your second sentence is a matter of opinion, but if you mean "mass media now includes those people and I shouldn't have to see that," then you never were tolerant. Tolerance doesn't come with a footnote like "as long as they stay out of sight and don't feel like they have the right to participate in public life."


I don’t really care if tv shows and other forms of entertainment features LGBT characters. It doesn’t really bother me. What I won’t do is view LGBT as the same as race or skin color. Racial inequity is much more of a pressing matter.

are you going to answer my questions about your positions?
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Mutualist Chaos
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Mutualist Chaos » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:24 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:I don’t really care if tv shows and other forms of entertainment features LGBT characters. It doesn’t really bother me. What I won’t do is view LGBT as the same as race or skin color. Racial inequity is much more of a pressing matter.


Playing the "who's more oppressed" game is precisely designed to divide people who would otherwise be in solidarity. I'll have no part in it. At best it's distracting whataboutism, in general it's fundamentally designed to keep both groups down.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:33 pm

Mutualist Chaos wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:I don’t really care if tv shows and other forms of entertainment features LGBT characters. It doesn’t really bother me. What I won’t do is view LGBT as the same as race or skin color. Racial inequity is much more of a pressing matter.


Playing the "who's more oppressed" game is precisely designed to divide people who would otherwise be in solidarity. I'll have no part in it. At best it's distracting whataboutism, in general it's fundamentally designed to keep both groups down.


Disagree. People are born with their skin color. POC cannot and should not try to change their skin color in order to appease white people. While LGBT isn’t a choice for most people(including for me), there is no scientific evidence that people are born gay. There are more LGBT people in positions of power than Blacks and Latinos. Black and Latino men make the majority of the people in prison, and are victims of the justice system. LGBT people make more money when compared to “cishet” Blacks and Latinos.
30 year old American male living in Minneapolis, MN.
Other than that, I’m not sure what I am.

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Malphe II
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Malphe II » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:35 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Mutualist Chaos wrote:
Playing the "who's more oppressed" game is precisely designed to divide people who would otherwise be in solidarity. I'll have no part in it. At best it's distracting whataboutism, in general it's fundamentally designed to keep both groups down.


Disagree. People are born with their skin color. POC cannot and should not try to change their skin color in order to appease white people. While LGBT isn’t a choice for most people(including for me), there is no scientific evidence that people are born gay. There are more LGBT people in positions of power than Blacks and Latinos. Black and Latino men make the majority of the people in prison, and are victims of the justice system. LGBT people make more money when compared to “cishet” Blacks and Latinos.

And? This is a complete non-sequitur, intersectionality or the lack thereof is irrelevant to any of the points that you've avoided.
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:36 pm

Necroghastia wrote:Then why do they introduce legislation attempting to do so?

They're just trying to slow you down in consolidating your power base. Even if every single thing they proposed was passed, what do you think would be the long term effect? Would we get a generation of anti-gay, anti-trans youths coming out of public schools who will vote to roll back anything when they turn 18? Would simply not saying "gay" at the children until fourth grade make them rabid anti-progressive ideologues? Of course not and you know this.

I think the opposition to this Florida bill is just not being honest. Sure, you oppose this because and only because you want to consolidate your power base by indoctrinating the children starting from birth or even before birth if that's effective -- whatever it takes. But if you were to lose on this one in the Florida legislature, the courts would strike it down and if the courts didn't strike it down, then all you've lost is K-3 and the other side hasn't even gained K-3, they've just pushed the indoctrination back a few years and that's all. You have almost all the power and are quibbling about getting the tiniest little bits at the very edges of total monopoly. You control every movie studio, every major streaming site, every rock star. You think the kids aren't going to be on your side? Of course they are! Just chill, you've already won and this is a non-issue.

National Review is pro-gay. FOX News has Guy Benson.

"I have a black gay friend, I can't be racist homophobic!"

No, this is genuine. Both of those institutions have been fully infiltrated.

The Republicans are simply Democrats from five minutes ago and five minutes ago the Democrats were pro-gay. Now the Republicans are genuinely pro-gay and the Democrats are pro-trans.

If they are genuinely pro-gay, then why have they done nothing but rail against gay people?

Because they have to wait for the Boomers to die, obviously. But you're way past the point of no return.

well where are they
it's been 5 minutes

"Five minutes" is hyperbolic, in regard to how accelerated the pace of change in American society has become. But you knew that.


what's depraved about being pro-LGBT?

I'm sure Tumblr will keep supplying them with more letters to add.

then why do i hate them both
Because they are in fact both the same and you're just blind to the fact that you're getting everything you want of real significance from this system.
Last edited by Moroniland on Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:36 pm

Malphe II wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
Disagree. People are born with their skin color. POC cannot and should not try to change their skin color in order to appease white people. While LGBT isn’t a choice for most people(including for me), there is no scientific evidence that people are born gay. There are more LGBT people in positions of power than Blacks and Latinos. Black and Latino men make the majority of the people in prison, and are victims of the justice system. LGBT people make more money when compared to “cishet” Blacks and Latinos.

And? This is a complete non-sequitur, intersectionality or the lack thereof is irrelevant to any of the points that you've avoided.


I don’t view a lifestyle as equal to skin color. That’s why,
30 year old American male living in Minneapolis, MN.
Other than that, I’m not sure what I am.

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Malphe II
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Malphe II » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:42 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Malphe II wrote:And? This is a complete non-sequitur, intersectionality or the lack thereof is irrelevant to any of the points that you've avoided.


I don’t view a lifestyle as equal to skin color. That’s why,

So oppressing a lifestyle is more virtuos than oppressing a skin colour? You've already admitted you don't feel like you've had a choice in your sexuality, I'm not sure how one flavour of oppression warrants exclusive attention over another.
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Necroghastia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:43 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Malphe II wrote:And? This is a complete non-sequitur, intersectionality or the lack thereof is irrelevant to any of the points that you've avoided.


I don’t view a lifestyle as equal to skin color. That’s why,

Necroghastia wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
Because it’s inappropriate. I’m sorry if your not able to understand that. Why do you insist on young children questioning their sexuality and/or gender?

What about it is inappropriate? Is the very concept of a gay couple inappropriate? Is a child being raised by a LGBT person or couple inappropriate?
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:44 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:I don’t view a lifestyle as equal to skin color. That’s why,

I actually disagree with you here. I think that all of the clans within the progressive/woke coalition are the exact same. You see this because anyone who is black but aligns with the Outer Party is not treated as an authentic person of color. Being a person of color really is a choice and it is a choice that black Republicans aren't making, so they aren't really genuine people of color.
Last edited by Moroniland on Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mutualist Chaos
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Mutualist Chaos » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:44 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Malphe II wrote:And? This is a complete non-sequitur, intersectionality or the lack thereof is irrelevant to any of the points that you've avoided.


I don’t view a lifestyle as equal to skin color. That’s why,


It's not a "lifestyle" like you decide to buy a houseboat instead of a split-level ranch or a studio apartment, it's a fundamental trait of the person that they have no choice over. And prison statistics of racial minorities don't mean "hey, it's OK to treat teh geyz like shit," it means western "civilization" has serious problems oppressing many different people on many different grounds. There are other threads for prison reform and racism; you don't get to unilaterally shut this one down because of some artificial hierarchy of importance or "this oppression is valid but that one isn't!". People are not limited to working for only one kind of justice.
Last edited by Mutualist Chaos on Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:45 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Malphe II wrote:And? This is a complete non-sequitur, intersectionality or the lack thereof is irrelevant to any of the points that you've avoided.


I don’t view a lifestyle as equal to skin color. That’s why,

You're doing two things right now and neither of them are good. Firstly dismissing gender and sexuality as a "lifestyle" is purely just you treating them as unimportant issues that can be swept aside. Secondly you are the person here trying to equat discrimination against LGBT people and discrimination against racial and ethnic minorities. Whether or not something is worse discrimination is a reductive way to look at this and again attempts to treat one issue as unimportant.

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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:52 pm

Mutualist Chaos wrote:It's not a "lifestyle" like you decide to buy a houseboat instead of a split-level ranch or a studio apartment,

I think it's more like a religion, like you decide to go to the cathedral or the synagogue or the mosque. And I don't say that to ridicule it: making it a religion makes it something fundamentally important to a person's identity which they might kill and/or die for. Something they care about deeply.

Mutualist Chaos wrote:it's a fundamental trait of the person that they have no choice over.

If we're going to believe the science then physics dictates that hard determinism is true, so there's no free will and therefore nothing we do is a choice and this is something we do, therefore this isn't a choice.

This seems like it would be a slam dunk argument for proving that sexual orientation and identity and pronouns and furry costumes and whatever else is the current thing this week are not a choice. Yet I rarely hear anyone using it which once again makes me question where are the intelligent apologists for this religion? I could do a better job defending it than I've seen and I don't even believe in it!

it means western "civilization" has serious problems oppressing many different people on many different grounds.

Ah yes, "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Everything, yes everything is oppression. Even the things that you like to do today will be reinterpreted as oppression tomorrow. If there's real oppression then that proves the principle and if there isn't real oppression then we'll just create some and that will also prove the principle.
"The wise man knows how little he knows."
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:56 pm

Malphe II wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
I don’t view a lifestyle as equal to skin color. That’s why,

So oppressing a lifestyle is more virtuos than oppressing a skin colour? You've already admitted you don't feel like you've had a choice in your sexuality, I'm not sure how one flavour of oppression warrants exclusive attention over another.


Having certain feelings isn’t a choice but living a certain lifestyle is a choice
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Other than that, I’m not sure what I am.

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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:57 pm

I think I have come up with a better way to ask my original question:

Is there ever a circumstance in which we should treat a person as a woman who is not a trans woman?
"The wise man knows how little he knows."
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:58 pm

Moroniland wrote:I think I have come up with a better way to ask my original question:

Is there ever a circumstance in which we should treat a person as a woman who is not a trans woman?

Obviously.
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:59 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:Having certain feelings isn’t a choice but living a certain lifestyle is a choice

Calling it a "lifestyle" doesn't just trivialize its importance to the person but also downplays how extremely fanatical and inherently political it is. The invention of homosexuality being an identity rather than a practice (the invention of "gay") was deliberately engineered in the 19th century in order to form a political movement. It isn't that community came first and politics followed later. Politics came first and the community formed around that.
Last edited by Moroniland on Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:02 pm

Necroghastia wrote:Obviously.

When would that be and what does it mean to treat someone as a woman? What does treating someone as a woman entail?
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:03 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Obviously.

When would that be and what does it mean to treat someone as a woman? What does treating someone as a woman entail?

When dealing with a cis woman, again, obviously.
also man you tell me you're the one making a big fucking deal about it what do you think treating someone as a woman entails
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:04 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:Having certain feelings isn’t a choice but living a certain lifestyle is a choice

Calling it a "lifestyle" doesn't just trivialize its importance to the person but also downplays how extremely fanatical and inherently political it is. The invention of homosexuality being an identity rather than a practice (the invention of "gay") was deliberately engineered in the 19th century in order to form a political movement. It isn't that community came first and politics followed later. Politics came first and the community formed around that.


People can have same sex attraction or have issues regarding their gender without embracing and living the LGBT lifestyle.
30 year old American male living in Minneapolis, MN.
Other than that, I’m not sure what I am.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:05 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Moroniland wrote:Calling it a "lifestyle" doesn't just trivialize its importance to the person but also downplays how extremely fanatical and inherently political it is. The invention of homosexuality being an identity rather than a practice (the invention of "gay") was deliberately engineered in the 19th century in order to form a political movement. It isn't that community came first and politics followed later. Politics came first and the community formed around that.


People can have same sex attraction or have issues regarding their gender without embracing and living the LGBT lifestyle.

What even is "the LGBT lifestyle?"
I don't know why I bother to ask since you have been ignoring me every other time I have probed for clarification from you, but eh, I'm stubborn.
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Mutualist Chaos
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Postby Mutualist Chaos » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:05 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Mutualist Chaos wrote:It's not a "lifestyle" like you decide to buy a houseboat instead of a split-level ranch or a studio apartment,

I think it's more like a religion, like you decide to go to the cathedral or the synagogue or the mosque. And I don't say that to ridicule it: making it a religion makes it something fundamentally important to a person's identity which they might kill and/or die for. Something they care about deeply.

Even religion is more of a decision-making process than sexual orientation/gender identity. Parents instill basic values in children, who later on decide, based on multiple factors (does this church agree with my values? Do I feel comfortable here? Do I agree with its catechism and cosmology? Etc etc etc), whether to stay in whatever church they were raised in, find something. Else, or stop going entirely. Nobody decides how they feel in this way. So the analogy is no good.

Mutualist Chaos wrote:it's a fundamental trait of the person that they have no choice over.

If we're going to believe the science then physics dictates that hard determinism is true, so there's no free will and therefore nothing we do is a choice and this is something we do, therefore this isn't a choice.

This seems like it would be a slam dunk argument for proving that sexual orientation and identity and pronouns and furry costumes and whatever else is the current thing this week are not a choice. Yet I rarely hear anyone using it which once again makes me question where are the intelligent apologists for this religion? I could do a better job defending it than I've seen and I don't even believe in it!

You seem like you think you've made some kind of great point here, but I'll be damned if I can tell how talking about quantum mechanics helps your moral case for treating LGBTQ people like shit.

it means western "civilization" has serious problems oppressing many different people on many different grounds.

Ah yes, "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." Everything, yes everything is oppression. Even the things that you like to do today will be reinterpreted as oppression tomorrow. If there's real oppression then that proves the principle and if there isn't real oppression then we'll just create some and that will also prove the principle.

What in the hell is this word salad supposed to mean?
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Antibox
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Postby Antibox » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:06 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:Having certain feelings isn’t a choice but living a certain lifestyle is a choice

Calling it a "lifestyle" doesn't just trivialize its importance to the person but also downplays how extremely fanatical and inherently political it is. The invention of homosexuality being an identity rather than a practice (the invention of "gay") was deliberately engineered in the 19th century in order to form a political movement. It isn't that community came first and politics followed later. Politics came first and the community formed around that.

I don't think that's quite accurate. I'm sure homosexuals had some sense of community before, just due to common/shared experience (that tends to glue similar ppl together to an extent).... it's the political identity that's relatively recent.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:09 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
People can have same sex attraction or have issues regarding their gender without embracing and living the LGBT lifestyle.

What even is "the LGBT lifestyle?"
I don't know why I bother to ask since you have been ignoring me every other time I have probed for clarification from you, but eh, I'm stubborn.


It is having homosexual sex and/or deciding to live as a different gender that one was “assigned”
30 year old American male living in Minneapolis, MN.
Other than that, I’m not sure what I am.

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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:10 pm

To help you out, here are some examples of things that would come with treating a person as a woman:

[*] In emergencies such as a naval disaster, the rule for honorable gentlemen is, "Women and children first." Gentlemen have an obligation to self-sacrifice that ladies do not have in such situations.
[*] Although a gentleman may, on occasion, be required to hit a man who challenges his honor, a gentleman does not hit women with very few exceptions.
[*] A lady's value comes from who she is, while a man's value comes from what he does.
[*] A gentleman does small courtesies such as holding open doors or holding umbrellas for ladies.

Traditional rules such as these make up the gender roles from previous centuries. I can see the sense in discarding some of them, but if we were to discard all of them, then I can't see how we're expected to treat women in any way different from how we treat men ... which also means I don't see how to treat trans women different from men. What are the new rules? We could treat everyone the same, but that would mean we'd have to treat trans women the same as men.
"The wise man knows how little he knows."
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Necroghastia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:11 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:What even is "the LGBT lifestyle?"
I don't know why I bother to ask since you have been ignoring me every other time I have probed for clarification from you, but eh, I'm stubborn.


It is having homosexual sex and/or deciding to live as a different gender that one was “assigned”

How is that a "lifestyle" any more than having heterosexual sex or being cis is?
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