Trans Discussion Thread: Catgirls Don't Need Litterboxes

[Salus Maior]

Apparently Din is a Mary Sue now. Huh.

Ray. Like Mulan, she didn't require any training that her forebears did; she was just immediately The Chosen One™, along with the other aspects of lazy writing which comes with that trope.

Mulan literally had a whole song sequence of training lol

[Vassenor]

Ray. Like Mulan, she didn't require any training that her forebears did; she was just immediately The Chosen One™, along with the other aspects of lazy writing which comes with that trope.

Mulan literally had a whole song sequence of training lol

And Rey had multiple non-musical training montages but we don’t count those. Meanwhile Luke saved the entire rebellion despite receiving no onscreen training on how to fly and fight in an X-Wing.

[Lady Victory]

Mulan literally had a whole song sequence of training lol

And Rey had multiple non-musical training montages but we don’t count those. Meanwhile Luke saved the entire rebellion despite receiving no onscreen training on how to fly and fight in an X-Wing.

Rey had zero training montages. We literally barely saw her train at all. Especially in the very first movie where she still managed to defeat a trained Dark Jedi.

And Luke's piloting skills were mentioned repeatedly throughout ANH.

Don't start talking shit about SW lore when you demonstrably don't know anything.

At any rate this topic has gone far off-topic and has nothing to do with transgenders.

[Vassenor]

And Rey had multiple non-musical training montages but we don’t count those. Meanwhile Luke saved the entire rebellion despite receiving no onscreen training on how to fly and fight in an X-Wing.

Rey had zero training montages. We literally barely saw her train at all. Especially in the very first movie where she still managed to defeat a trained Dark Jedi.

And Luke's piloting skills were mentioned repeatedly throughout ANH.

Don't start talking shit about SW lore when you demonstrably don't know anything.

At any rate this topic has gone far off-topic and has nothing to do with transgenders.

Oh right I forgot we’re supposed to ignore Kylo’s massive chest wound and the fact he has her on the back foot for the entire fight.

And Luke’s pilot skills are mentioned exactly twice in ANH. And there’s a difference between being able to fly a bush plane and being able to survive combat in a fighter jet.

[Kowani]

Texas Gov. Greg Abbot (R) signs trans sports ban

[SD_Film Artists]

Ray. Like Mulan, she didn't require any training that her forebears did; she was just immediately The Chosen One™, along with the other aspects of lazy writing which comes with that trope.

Mulan literally had a whole song sequence of training lol

I'm talking about how the new Mulan doesn't fit with the original.

Ray. Like Mulan, she didn't require any training that her forebears did; she was just immediately The Chosen One™, along with the other aspects of lazy writing which comes with that trope.

Right then. First of all you were talking about The Mandalorian and complaining that it didn’t give you enough fanservice

On the contrary, it gave a good amount of fanservice and that's the problem- the fandom had to wait for The Mandalorian because the sequals didn't deliver.

and now you’re ignoring both times we’re shown Rey training in the films among other things. By this logic Luke and Anakin are both examples of a Mary Sue because we’re never shown them training to fly that specific straighter before they use it to save the day like they’re an expert at flying it.

What Lady Victory said, and I agree this is getting off-topic. There is certainly a complicity within (but not all-encompassing of) the Trans/LGBT movement regarding these tropes in current media but it doesn't serve the thread to carry on with what is or isn't a Mary Sue.

[New haven america]

Apparently Din is a Mary Sue now. Huh.

Ray. Like Mulan, she didn't require any training that her forebears did; she was just immediately The Chosen One™, along with the other aspects of lazy writing which comes with that trope.

They literally had an entire song and dance sequence about her training to become a soldier in the movie.

In the OG story this was expanded to years of training at a military academy after "getting" conscripted. She became a general even.

[Salus Maior]

And Rey had multiple non-musical training montages but we don’t count those. Meanwhile Luke saved the entire rebellion despite receiving no onscreen training on how to fly and fight in an X-Wing.

Rey had zero training montages. We literally barely saw her train at all. Especially in the very first movie where she still managed to defeat a trained Dark Jedi.

And Luke's piloting skills were mentioned repeatedly throughout ANH.

Don't start talking shit about SW lore when you demonstrably don't know anything.

At any rate this topic has gone far off-topic and has nothing to do with transgenders.

The Dark Jedi who took a bolt to the abdomen.

[New haven america]

And Rey had multiple non-musical training montages but we don’t count those. Meanwhile Luke saved the entire rebellion despite receiving no onscreen training on how to fly and fight in an X-Wing.

Rey had zero training montages. We literally barely saw her train at all. Especially in the very first movie where she still managed to defeat a trained Dark Jedi.

And Luke's piloting skills were mentioned repeatedly throughout ANH.

Don't start talking shit about SW lore when you demonstrably don't know anything.

At any rate this topic has gone far off-topic and has nothing to do with transgenders.

Don't bother, Vass takes a very Tumblr driven view on things like progressivism in media. It's about the aesthetic, not the actual message or substance.

Though, to get back on topic, anyone waiting patiently for Disney to stop being scarred of the idea of LGBT people in their movies. No, not as background characters, characters who actually have something to do.

[Ifreann]

Rey had zero training montages. We literally barely saw her train at all. Especially in the very first movie where she still managed to defeat a trained Dark Jedi.

And Luke's piloting skills were mentioned repeatedly throughout ANH.

Don't start talking shit about SW lore when you demonstrably don't know anything.

At any rate this topic has gone far off-topic and has nothing to do with transgenders.

Don't bother, Vass takes a very Tumblr driven view on things like progressivism.

Though, to get back on topic, anyone waiting patiently for Disney to stop being scarred of the idea of LGBT people in their movies. No, not as background characters, characters who actually have something to do.

But Disney has had a dozen first gay characters!

[Neuer California]

Rey had zero training montages. We literally barely saw her train at all. Especially in the very first movie where she still managed to defeat a trained Dark Jedi.

And Luke's piloting skills were mentioned repeatedly throughout ANH.

Don't start talking shit about SW lore when you demonstrably don't know anything.

At any rate this topic has gone far off-topic and has nothing to do with transgenders.

Don't bother, Vass takes a very Tumblr driven view on things like progressivism.

Though, to get back on topic, anyone waiting patiently for Disney to stop being scarred of the idea of LGBT people in their movies. No, not as background characters, characters who actually have something to do.

I'm waiting for such, but China is too big a market unfortunately

[Vassenor]

Rey had zero training montages. We literally barely saw her train at all. Especially in the very first movie where she still managed to defeat a trained Dark Jedi.

And Luke's piloting skills were mentioned repeatedly throughout ANH.

Don't start talking shit about SW lore when you demonstrably don't know anything.

At any rate this topic has gone far off-topic and has nothing to do with transgenders.

Don't bother, Vass takes a very Tumblr driven view on things like progressivism in media. It's about the aesthetic, not the actual message or substance.

Though, to get back on topic, anyone waiting patiently for Disney to stop being scarred of the idea of LGBT people in their movies. No, not as background characters, characters who actually have something to do.

Apparently someone is upset I base my opinions on what is actually in the movies not what people wish was in the movies.

[Cannot think of a name]

Wait, are you seriously complaining that the show tried to stand on its own rather than relying on fanservice?

By 'stand on its own' you mean relying on Mary Sue tropes?

Newsflash: retcons happen all the time.

Retcons aren't automatically bad but one can't claim to be respecting the past while shitting all over it; especially when 'throw away the past' (hint hint let's purposely disapoint those silly incel fans, hint nudge nudge) is becoming an increasingly common trope.

Internet fans definitely care more about the Doctor Who canon than anyone who works on it, this is an entirely one sided complaint. Are we really going to get precious with this? Romana literally tried on bodies in her regeneration and then purposefully chose one of someone they had met. Also, they've just sort of blithely just forgot that the Doctor's first companion was his granddaughter and have tried on different revisits of that like hats. Then #8 had to go to witches who somehow controlled regeneration and take some sort of traumatic potion to get John Hurt. For some reason when #4 became #5 he got followed around by an apperition of his regeneration. Later on they inserted Clara into the whole bit where she nudges Hartnell without his granddaughter into a TARDIS-OH, a name that his granddaughter claims to have invented herself in the first episode but then everyone is calling them that...was the teenage runaway of the Kooky Time Lord who broke some very vague rules that influential in Time Lord society?

Daleks use to be defeated by a set of stairs but it took later series for them to come up with the genius idea of flying? Is the Doctor meeting them in chronological order, because they always seem familiar with the stuff he's done and not familiar with stuff he's going to do in the future.

The Master has died irreversibly so many times now that he's worse than a comic book character. The movie even makes a point out of asserting "No really, we've erased him" only psych! He's at the end of the universe hiding out as an old man somehow. How? Fuck you for asking, look at David Tennant chew up scenes with the new guy.

Now people want me to bunch up my underwear because they changed the origin and nature of regeneration again? Please. It's practically a tradition at this point.

Also, stop being so precious about Superman's kid. This isn't some golden age character that has 80 years of canon behind him. He was introduced in 2016. I'm guessing you've never encountered someone who has come out and how that's a personal decision that takes time including time with themselves as they doubt who they are, which makes this again five year old character not some giant shock to the continuity but kinda in line with the LGBTQi experience.

Manufactured outrage. No one gives a shit but you. Here's a tip-you want it to not be a big deal? Shut the fuck up about it. I wouldn't have even known Superman had a kid in the comics if people hadn't lost their fucking shit when he turned out to be bi or whatever he is I don't really care because he's literally just a drawing.

[Vassenor]

By 'stand on its own' you mean relying on Mary Sue tropes?



Retcons aren't automatically bad but one can't claim to be respecting the past while shitting all over it; especially when 'throw away the past' (hint hint let's purposely disapoint those silly incel fans, hint nudge nudge) is becoming an increasingly common trope.

Internet fans definitely care more about the Doctor Who canon than anyone who works on it, this is an entirely one sided complaint. Are we really going to get precious with this? Romana literally tried on bodies in her regeneration and then purposefully chose one of someone they had met. Also, they've just sort of blithely just forgot that the Doctor's first companion was his granddaughter and have tried on different revisits of that like hats. Then #8 had to go to witches who somehow controlled regeneration and take some sort of traumatic potion to get John Hurt. For some reason when #4 became #5 he got followed around by an apperition of his regeneration. Later on they inserted Clara into the whole bit where she nudges Hartnell without his granddaughter into a TARDIS-OH, a name that his granddaughter claims to have invented herself in the first episode but then everyone is calling them that...was the teenage runaway of the Kooky Time Lord who broke some very vague rules that influential in Time Lord society?

Daleks use to be defeated by a set of stairs but it took later series for them to come up with the genius idea of flying? Is the Doctor meeting them in chronological order, because they always seem familiar with the stuff he's done and not familiar with stuff he's going to do in the future.

The Master has died irreversibly so many times now that he's worse than a comic book character. The movie even makes a point out of asserting "No really, we've erased him" only psych! He's at the end of the universe hiding out as an old man somehow. How? Fuck you for asking, look at David Tennant chew up scenes with the new guy.

Now people want me to bunch up my underwear because they changed the origin and nature of regeneration again? Please. It's practically a tradition at this point.

Also, stop being so precious about Superman's kid. This isn't some golden age character that has 80 years of canon behind him. He was introduced in 2016. I'm guessing you've never encountered someone who has come out and how that's a personal decision that takes time including time with themselves as they doubt who they are, which makes this again five year old character not some giant shock to the continuity but kinda in line with the LGBTQi experience.

Manufactured outrage. No one gives a shit but you. Here's a tip-you want it to not be a big deal? Shut the fuck up about it. I wouldn't have even known Superman had a kid in the comics if people hadn't lost their fucking shit when he turned out to be bi or whatever he is I don't really care because he's literally just a drawing.

It's almost like regeneration itself (which wasn't even called that until Pertwee came along) was a deus ex machina device created so that Hartnell could quit the show without needing to cancel it.

[Lady Victory]

Don't bother, Vass takes a very Tumblr driven view on things like progressivism in media. It's about the aesthetic, not the actual message or substance.

Though, to get back on topic, anyone waiting patiently for Disney to stop being scarred of the idea of LGBT people in their movies. No, not as background characters, characters who actually have something to do.

Apparently someone is upset I base my opinions on what is actually in the movies not what people wish was in the movies.

No you don't.

What was on screen in the Original Trilogy was a farm boy with prior experience learning more through training and failure.

What was on screen in the Prequels was an scavenger girl with zero experience in anything and barely any training performing expert-level feats without effort and never failing at any anything.

Luke literally got his hand cut off because he rushed off to fight Vader before he was ready. Rey beat Kylo in every fight they fought in despite her not having anything even remotely similar to his level of experience. He was leading armies while she was digging in the dirt for scrap. Even after 6 months of training with the former Grandmaster of the Jedi Order Luke could barely hold his own against Vader, who had decades of experience leading armies and even hunting Jedi.

Rey is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue: everyone likes her, she's good at everything, and she never fails at anything she sets out to do.

Now either take this to the Star Wars thread or drop it but either way cut the fucking threadjack already.

[Page]

Okay, so I finally watched the Dave Chappelle special. I went into it with virtually no knowledge of what was said and no expectations.

Thoughts:

- He does seem to understand on some level the difference between gender and sex, but he consistently conflates the two throughout. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that part of the reason for this is the nature of doing this kind of special. The material in comedy has to be "tight" to keep the attention of the audience. He had to fit a certain amount of stuff into a limited time and that does seem to be a good reason why he didn't explain and then use terms of clarification like AFAB/AMAB. Therefore we end up with contradictions where at one point he says "trans women are women" and another point where he says he is "team TERF" because "gender is a fact" (where he means to say that sex is a fact). I want to be charitable to him and assume all he has learned about the TERF stuff stems from JK Rowling and that he is thinking in terms of ideological debates on Twitter. The flippant "team TERF" remarks would be much worse if one assumes he knows about TERF violence, if he knows that TERF adults wage campaigns of harassment and bullying against trans children, but most people don't know about that and if he did know, I don't think he would have made that joke.

- He refrained from misgendering and only used the wrong pronouns in situations of referencing the past, like remarks he mad about Caitlynn Jenner in his last special. I think he was right to be critical of Caitlynn Jenner being voted "woman of the year" but he did express that criticism in a problematic way that implied that trans women are not really women and he promoted the misconception that people turn trans rather than acknowledge that one's gender identity is intrinsic.

- He should get credit for relating to a mainstream audience how stupid bathroom bills are in a funny and relatable way. I think his story about Daphne came across as very sincere too. And while it has become annoyingly common for every comedian these days to portray themselves as a victim of cancel culture, I don't think he milked that too much. I'm reminded of what happened to Natalie Wynn (Contrapoints), how she fell victim to a hate mob because she invited Buck Angel to read a single quote from a book completely unrelated to gender on her video. There is some derangement in every community. But Chappelle should have taken more care to differentiate the hate mob part of the trans community from the rest. He probably has unintentionally perpetuated the idea that the trans community as a whole is militantly intolerant, and that is harmful.

- The worst thing Chappelle did was to pit the LGBTQ movement and the black anti-racist movement against each other. I didn't see anything wrong with the joke about MLK getting everybody up on a flamboyant pride float and to his credit, he did point out that only a white trans person would ever think to call the police following a verbal occupation, that no trans or cis person of color would do that, because as he rightfully said, the police don't give a shit who called them, they just come in shooting. But he leaned into this theme too hard, the "oppression Olympics" as detractors have called it, and because of this, more people are going to walk away with an entirely wrong understanding of intersectionality. Chappelle would have been responsible to have pointed out that problems particularly compound for trans people of color. Unfortunately, his audience has been given the picture of affluent white trans people as a monolith for the entire trans community vs. racist oppression. However unintentionally, he has spread the misconception that all teans people are Caitlyn Jenners with Caitlyn Jenner problems.

Verdict: Chappelle probably did not incite violence or hatred against transgender people and probably did not make anyone who watched the special more transphobic, but he did inflict unfair damage against the credibility of the trans community, he promoted a misunderstanding of intersectionality, and he unintentionally trivialized trans issues by overshadowing trans working class and trans people of color. The special should be criticized but not treated as an attack on LGBTQ.

[Vassenor]

Apparently someone is upset I base my opinions on what is actually in the movies not what people wish was in the movies.

No you don't.

What was on screen in the Original Trilogy was a farm boy with prior experience learning more through training and failure.

What was on screen in the Prequels was an scavenger girl with zero experience in anything and barely any training performing expert-level feats without effort and never failing at any anything.

Luke literally got his hand cut off because he rushed off to fight Vader before he was ready. Rey beat Kylo in every fight they fought in despite her not having anything even remotely similar to his level of experience. He was leading armies while she was digging in the dirt for scrap. Even after 6 months of training with the former Grandmaster of the Jedi Order Luke could barely hold his own against Vader, who had decades of experience leading armies and even hunting Jedi.

Rey is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue: everyone likes her, she's good at everything, and she never fails at anything she sets out to do.

Now either take this to the Star Wars thread or drop it but either way cut the fucking threadjack already.

Rey fights Kylo face to face twice. Once he as a massive chest wound from tanking being shot with the same bowcaster that Chewbacca was blasting Stormtroopers across the room with a few scenes earlier, and the only reason the fight ends inconclusively is because a literal chasm opens between them. The second time on the Death Star wreckage it's because Leia distracts him.

>Even after 6 months of training with the former Grandmaster of the Jedi Order

You do know ESB takes place over the course of less than a month, right?

[The Kingdom of the Three Isles]

Don't bother, Vass takes a very Tumblr driven view on things like progressivism in media. It's about the aesthetic, not the actual message or substance.

Though, to get back on topic, anyone waiting patiently for Disney to stop being scarred of the idea of LGBT people in their movies. No, not as background characters, characters who actually have something to do.

Apparently someone is upset I base my opinions on what is actually in the movies not what people wish was in the movies.

You base your facts on movies?

[Vassenor]

Apparently someone is upset I base my opinions on what is actually in the movies not what people wish was in the movies.

You base your facts on movies?

My facts about what are in the films being discussed, yes.

[SD_Film Artists]

Ray. Like Mulan, she didn't require any training that her forebears did; she was just immediately The Chosen One™, along with the other aspects of lazy writing which comes with that trope.

They literally had an entire song and dance sequence about her training to become a soldier in the movie.

I'm talking about how the new Mulan doesn't fit with the original.

Don't bother, Vass takes a very Tumblr driven view on things like progressivism.

Though, to get back on topic, anyone waiting patiently for Disney to stop being scarred of the idea of LGBT people in their movies. No, not as background characters, characters who actually have something to do.

I'm waiting for such, but China is too big a market unfortunately

No worries, they'll just edit the gay parts out or shrink their image in the advertising posters like they did with Black Panther and (possibily would) with James Bond's Q.

By 'stand on its own' you mean relying on Mary Sue tropes?



Retcons aren't automatically bad but one can't claim to be respecting the past while shitting all over it; especially when 'throw away the past' (hint hint let's purposely disapoint those silly incel fans, hint nudge nudge) is becoming an increasingly common trope.

Internet fans definitely care more about the Doctor Who canon than anyone who works on it

And therein lies the core problem. They're more focused on LGBT/idpol agenda rather than writing a good story. It's not that they're *bad* at writing (though also that too), but rather that they're just not hired to write Dr Who, which is kinda weird considering that the show is Dr Who. A lot of the writers in Whittaker's tenure have a background in soaps or political theatre rather than actually writing science fiction.

Also, stop being so precious about Superman's kid. This isn't some golden age character that has 80 years of canon behind him. He was introduced in 2016. I'm guessing you've never encountered someone who has come out and how that's a personal decision that takes time including time with themselves as they doubt who they are, which makes this again five year old character not some giant shock to the continuity but kinda in line with the LGBTQi experience.

Manufactured outrage. No one gives a shit but you. Here's a tip-you want it to not be a big deal? Shut the fuck up about it. I wouldn't have even known Superman had a kid in the comics if people hadn't lost their fucking shit when he turned out to be bi or whatever he is I don't really care because he's literally just a drawing.

Ironic that you talk of manufactured outrage, as literally the first thing I said on this topic was that I really don't mind if superman's son is bi. That wasn't just an "I'm not a racist but" platitude, I stand by it.

[The Kingdom of the Three Isles]

You base your facts on movies?

My facts about what are in the films being discussed, yes.

I know I know. I was just trying to pull your leg. Ok let's get back to topic.

[Vassenor]

All right, let's talk about how the BBC is declaring all trans women to be rapists based on a 500 respondant survey where a couple of TERFs basically interviewed their friends.

[The Kingdom of the Three Isles]

All right, let's talk about how the BBC is declaring all trans women to be rapists based on a 500 respondant survey where a couple of TERFs basically interviewed their friends.

I don't think it's the BCC that's saying so, but some transphobic fool. But I'm confused, is the apparent transphobe a lesbian? I'm legitimately confused

[Vassenor]

All right, let's talk about how the BBC is declaring all trans women to be rapists based on a 500 respondant survey where a couple of TERFs basically interviewed their friends.

I don't think it's the BCC that's saying so, but some transphobic fool

And the BBC is publicising it with precisely no attempt to criticise it like a broadcaster that claims to be editorially neutral should.

[SD_Film Artists]

All right, let's talk about how the BBC is declaring all trans women to be rapists based on a 500 respondant survey where a couple of TERFs basically interviewed their friends.

Are you saying that they're infact not pressuring the women and are perfectly fine with the woman saying (in effect) that they're 'Super Straight'? And if they're not fine with it, then isn't that the same as pressuring someone to date a partner without consent? If refusing to date people for stupid reasons was a hate crime then most people on dating apps would be guilty; height, income, ethnicity, boob size, there's lots of things which someone can be rejected by which doesn't come under facial beauty and having a nice personality. It's not right, but the only way to police it is to have compulsory arranged marriages- and that's not liberal at all.