Swiss voters approve facial covering ban

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Most relevant here being on women. Remember especially during the whole mass refugee crisis when ISIS was running rampant? Harassment from young men in the countries that took them in? New Years Eve assaults in Germany?
The entire Charlie Hebdo cartoon incident? People literally died for making drawings.

So what does any of this have to do with facial coverings other than symbolism?

[Canis Rex]

Most relevant here being on women. Remember especially during the whole mass refugee crisis when ISIS was running rampant? Harassment from young men in the countries that took them in? New Years Eve assaults in Germany?
The entire Charlie Hebdo cartoon incident? People literally died for making drawings.

So what does any of this have to do with facial coverings other than symbolism?

In regards to facial coverings, not much, more an overall view of how people defend Islam and some of its practices despite where they can lead. Obviously face coverings are the least harmful issue compared to these but they all rest on the same line of thought.
I need to sleep, good debate everyone.

[Kilobugya]

Guessing they're running on the assumption that women aren't choosing to wear them and so are being helped in terms of rights. Could be wrong, could be right, as mentioned we don't have that data.

Then gather data before pushing a ban.

Secondly, is it okay for Muslim men to tell women what to wear?

No, but no more than non-Muslim men to tell them what not to wear.

Third, why is it Switzerland's fault if men choose to pressure women into staying home rather than being okay with them going outside? Is that not a bad response from the men?

When you're making a law, you're responsible of the foreseeable consequences of said law, and must consider them in pros/cons of your law proposal. The consequence of the ban will be more oppression for many of those you wanted to help. That it's a "bad response from the men" is a moral judgement, which I agree with, but doesn't matter when trying to answer "will the law do more good than harm ?", which is the main question to ask.

[SD_Film Artists]

Islam already declared what women can wear, Sweden just did it later. People seem okay with the first but not the second.

The difference is that Islamic doctrine does not have the force of law in Switzerland.

Bloody heck; this isn’t a Christianity v. Islam issue.

That's small comfort to the women who are coerced into having their clothes and many other things being dictated on by men and conservative older women in their self-ghettoised society.

[Canis Rex]

Guessing they're running on the assumption that women aren't choosing to wear them and so are being helped in terms of rights. Could be wrong, could be right, as mentioned we don't have that data.

Then gather data before pushing a ban.

Secondly, is it okay for Muslim men to tell women what to wear?

No, but no more than non-Muslim men to tell them what not to wear.

Third, why is it Switzerland's fault if men choose to pressure women into staying home rather than being okay with them going outside? Is that not a bad response from the men?

When you're making a law, you're responsible of the foreseeable consequences of said law, and must consider them in pros/cons of your law proposal. The consequence of the ban will be more oppression for many of those you wanted to help. That it's a "bad response from the men" is a moral judgement, which I agree with, but doesn't matter when trying to answer "will the law do more good than harm ?", which is the main question to ask.

That's honestly likely difficult data to gather, considering they would need to remove all social pressure from women somehow and make sure the women knew this to the extent of being able to give honest and open answers. I mean if they could figure out how to do that first, then excellent, but I'm also not going to bash them for trying something when basically nobody else is trying at all.
So then what are they supposed to do if women being made to wear it is wrong but making a law about it is wrong too?
As an aside, I disagree with the notion of holding back legislature because of some stubborn section of the population. Especially in a matter like this where both of us agree that the current situation is wrong. This is one custom Muslim men do not need catered to on. They need to understand that in places where their religion doesn't run the government their behavior is not tolerated. If they are going to push back so much on this kind of issue then quite frankly it exposes what kind of people they are and lends credit to the complaints against them.

[Insaanistan]

So what beliefs are being imposed?

Most relevant here being on women. Remember especially during the whole mass refugee crisis when ISIS was running rampant? Harassment from young men in the countries that took them in? New Years Eve assaults in Germany?
The entire Charlie Hebdo cartoon incident? People literally died for making drawings.

“Therefore let’s blame 1.9-2.25 billion people for it and make it hard for the millions of them that are in our country to practice their religion!”

[Insaanistan]

Here’s a fun statistic: .74% of Europe’s Muslims have the possibility of somehow being even a little bit radical. Of those, how many will actually act on that?

[Taigama]

Considering Niqabs, they’ve already been declared un Islamic a few years ago, so I don’t think people would have to worry about those.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

So beyond this what unfair customs is Islam defended for?

Trying to impose their beliefs on others, refusing to integrate into foreign cultures/communities (I wouldn't normally count those as religious but it seems a common thing when large numbers of Muslims settle outside the ME so something is going on there), and in the Israel/Palestine feud violence in general is looked upon as completely Israel's fault rather than shared blame.
Also, is this one attire issue okay or no?

As someone who lives in the most Muslim part of America, I don't feel like the Muslims here haven't tried to assimilate. It's just the rest of the country refuses to accept them and says "get out of here you fucking towel heads." Most of the Muslims I've dealt with didn't have radically different values from most people in general, at least in the Midwest. I'm not a fan of Islam as a belief system (I'm not a fan of most religions), but I think this fear of "Muslims are gonna take over and bring sharia law" is overplayed fear mongering, akin to fears in the early 20th century of the Catholics taking over.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

Here’s a fun statistic: .74% of Europe’s Muslims have the possibility of somehow being even a little bit radical. Of those, how many will actually act on that?

It's a water and poop situation. No amount of water will spoil a poop, but even a fraction of a percent of poop will spoil the water.

Muslims generally should not be treated as terrorists. But especially devout Muslims who think it's a good idea to dress in a way that says "stay the fuck away from me, I'm a Muslim" should hardly be surprised if people are suspicious of them.

Would-be lone terrorists who get caught very often get stopped by calls to the police by those who care most about them: their family. Who may even be a bit radical themselves. There would be even fewer attacks in the future if those family (or sometimes friends) were sure of not being dismissed by police, having their confidentiality compromised by police, or even being raided and questioned/arrested by police.

[Insaanistan]

Here’s a fun statistic: .74% of Europe’s Muslims have the possibility of somehow being even a little bit radical. Of those, how many will actually act on that?

It's a water and poop situation. No amount of water will spoil a poop, but even a fraction of a percent of poop will spoil the water.

Muslims generally should not be treated as terrorists. But especially devout Muslims who think it's a good idea to dress in a way that says "stay the fuck away from me, I'm a Muslim" should hardly be surprised if people are suspicious of them.

Would-be lone terrorists who get caught very often get stopped by calls to the police by those who care most about them: their family. Who may even be a bit radical themselves. There would be even fewer attacks in the future if those family (or sometimes friends) were sure of not being dismissed by police, having their confidentiality compromised by police, or even being raided and questioned/arrested by police.

Vast majority of the time, Muslims just don’t know who’s a terrorist. Firstly, usually entire families aren’t radicalized: it’s usually just one member, often the son. The soon to be terrorists don’t just start saying “You know what? ISIS. Not so bad.” No. The parents just notice the kid starts praying more and say “Huh. Weird. He never completed five prayers daily before. That’s good.” Next thing you know, he’s missing. You file a missing person’s report. After that you get a call from a number you’ve never seen. It’s your son’s voice: he’s telling you not to bother looking for him, because he’s in Syria. Now you’ve pegged yourself as the parent of a terrorist. You might be able to hid that from non-Muslims who’ve never met you, but most Muslims live in close knit communities with those of the same ethnic ancestry or religion. They’ll know, and they’re gonna judge you the rest of your life, silently asking you how you could let your child become a terrorist.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

It's a water and poop situation. No amount of water will spoil a poop, but even a fraction of a percent of poop will spoil the water.

Muslims generally should not be treated as terrorists. But especially devout Muslims who think it's a good idea to dress in a way that says "stay the fuck away from me, I'm a Muslim" should hardly be surprised if people are suspicious of them.

Would-be lone terrorists who get caught very often get stopped by calls to the police by those who care most about them: their family. Who may even be a bit radical themselves. There would be even fewer attacks in the future if those family (or sometimes friends) were sure of not being dismissed by police, having their confidentiality compromised by police, or even being raided and questioned/arrested by police.

Vast majority of the time, Muslims just don’t know who’s a terrorist. Firstly, usually entire families aren’t radicalized: it’s usually just one member, often the son. The soon to be terrorists don’t just start saying “You know what? ISIS. Not so bad.” No. The parents just notice the kid starts praying more and say “Huh. Weird. He never completed five prayers daily before. That’s good.” Next thing you know, he’s missing. You file a missing person’s report. After that you get a call from a number you’ve never seen. It’s your son’s voice: he’s telling you not to bother looking for him, because he’s in Syria. Now you’ve pegged yourself as the parent of a terrorist.

This is when you should call the police.

You might be able to hid that from non-Muslims who’ve never met you, but most Muslims live in close knit communities with those of the same ethnic ancestry or religion. They’ll know, and they’re gonna judge you the rest of your life, silently asking you how you could let your child become a terrorist.

Australia has a controversial law that people can't travel to certain prohibited places, without a reason. Syria was one of them; probably still is. I'm not sure I agree: if someone goes to a foreign country and commits a crime or act of war, that's on them (I consider the brigades who fought on the right side in the Spanish Civil War). However, they can't come back if they do. I don't mind that: it fits my general idea that people should be tried in whatever country they committed a crime. I do think it's unconstitutional to deprive Australian citizens of citizenship, even if they have some other one. I square it away as pre-emptory deportation for trial, as opposed to exile.

[Canis Rex]

Most relevant here being on women. Remember especially during the whole mass refugee crisis when ISIS was running rampant? Harassment from young men in the countries that took them in? New Years Eve assaults in Germany?
The entire Charlie Hebdo cartoon incident? People literally died for making drawings.

“Therefore let’s blame 1.9-2.25 billion people for it and make it hard for the millions of them that are in our country to practice their religion!”

Yeah, here's the thing. When Muslims are in a country not governed by their religion their rules no longer apply. No you cannot harass or belittle women because they don't dress to your preferences and your prophet is not immune to being depicted. If those two things are truly so integral to your religion that you expect a foreign nation to obey them as well or you're crying foul then your religion, not the country you're in, is the problem.
Also, guess the Pakistan highlight didn't work out since we're just dropping that.

[Canis Rex]

Trying to impose their beliefs on others, refusing to integrate into foreign cultures/communities (I wouldn't normally count those as religious but it seems a common thing when large numbers of Muslims settle outside the ME so something is going on there), and in the Israel/Palestine feud violence in general is looked upon as completely Israel's fault rather than shared blame.
Also, is this one attire issue okay or no?

As someone who lives in the most Muslim part of America, I don't feel like the Muslims here haven't tried to assimilate. It's just the rest of the country refuses to accept them and says "get out of here you fucking towel heads." Most of the Muslims I've dealt with didn't have radically different values from most people in general, at least in the Midwest. I'm not a fan of Islam as a belief system (I'm not a fan of most religions), but I think this fear of "Muslims are gonna take over and bring sharia law" is overplayed fear mongering, akin to fears in the early 20th century of the Catholics taking over.

As I mentioned in a different post, I'm not about to defend the US on just about anything, including the attitude towards foreigners. I could reach and say maybe we're not completely over 9/11 or it's because of our ongoing fighting with every terrorist group that pops up in the ME but I don't think that justifies not being welcoming. It's Americans swallowing military propaganda plain and simple. If Muslims do truly want to integrate that's a good thing and they should be welcomed as anyone else.
The Sharia law bit does have basis in reality given some study done indicated a disturbingly high number of Muslims in Britain did support Sharia to some degree if not absolutely. But no they certainly aren't going to take over and manage to impose it on everyone so that level of worry would indeed be overreacting.

[Insaanistan]

“Therefore let’s blame 1.9-2.25 billion people for it and make it hard for the millions of them that are in our country to practice their religion!”

Yeah, here's the thing. When Muslims are in a country not governed by their religion their rules no longer apply. No you cannot harass or belittle women because they don't dress to your preferences and your prophet is not immune to being depicted. If those two things are truly so integral to your religion that you expect a foreign nation to obey them as well or you're crying foul then your religion, not the country you're in, is the problem.
Also, guess the Pakistan highlight didn't work out since we're just dropping that.

There is literally nowhere in Islam where you are allowed to harass or belittle a woman for not wearing a burqa, niqab prime hijab. That doesn’t mean you should be allowed to force them not to wear a burqa, niqab or hijab.

[Kubra]

Most relevant here being on women. Remember especially during the whole mass refugee crisis when ISIS was running rampant? Harassment from young men in the countries that took them in? New Years Eve assaults in Germany?
The entire Charlie Hebdo cartoon incident? People literally died for making drawings.

“Therefore let’s blame 1.9-2.25 billion people for it and make it hard for the millions of them that are in our country to practice their religion!”

well 1.9-2.5 billion people don't wear the burqa, do they?
I mean I'm not necessarily a fan of burqa bans, but you seem to be a little too fond of gulf fashion.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I think a woman in a hijab could fit in alright here. I mean after all, we had somewhat similar headcoverings that were stylish here in the 50s.

https://images.app.goo.gl/iwaSbV2tsgsv4HMg6
https://images.app.goo.gl/7n4oWoFw6QPsgC7K6

You compare these and they're pretty similar. They don't seem too foreign in appearance and you can still see the person you're dealing with. But this:

https://images.app.goo.gl/HAnfWRDwFEcLqUUu6

Yeeeeeah...it's gonna be a struggle. I'll just say that.

[The Passerine Islands]

Here’s a fun statistic: .74% of Europe’s Muslims have the possibility of somehow being even a little bit radical. Of those, how many will actually act on that?

Exactly. I'm tired of people acting like Muslims are one homogenous group. I'm in the US in a city with a large Muslim population, and every young Muslim I know is left-leaning, including ones born outside the country. Their parents are conservative but about as much as you'd expect of people in their 40s-60s. I knew Christian girls growing up whose parents wouldn't let them wear shorts or forced them to wear long skirts, but I've never met a single hijabi whose parents made her wear hijab or even pressured her. Of course they exist, but it's not this oppressive society westerners seem to think it is, and acting like this is protecting women is laughable at best

Also, I'm sure you'll get tons more of the "if one skittle in a bowl was poisoned, would you eat one???" types replying, and I can't believe people think it's some big gotcha. Every group of people has terrible people. Muslims don't have a monopoly on crime lmao and dictating what they wear won't change someone whose mind is set on doing something bad

[Miku the Based]

The problem with representative democracy is that Majority rules so a Muslim majority nation runs the democracy, the minority who does not agree or abide by Muslim law must go elseware. Vise versa. That's why mass immigration and citizenship without assimilation is a bad thing for a nation of people with a distinct people and culture and religion and so on. The nature of democracy forces homogeneity on peoples within its juristiction.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Here’s a fun statistic: .74% of Europe’s Muslims have the possibility of somehow being even a little bit radical. Of those, how many will actually act on that?

Exactly. I'm tired of people acting like Muslims are one homogenous group. I'm in the US in a city with a large Muslim population, and every young Muslim I know is left-leaning, including ones born outside the country. Their parents are conservative but about as much as you'd expect of people in their 40s-60s. I knew Christian girls growing up whose parents wouldn't let them wear shorts or forced them to wear long skirts, but I've never met a single hijabi whose parents made her wear hijab or even pressured her. Of course they exist, but it's not this oppressive society westerners seem to think it is, and acting like this is protecting women is laughable at best

Also, I'm sure you'll get tons more of the "if one skittle in a bowl was poisoned, would you eat one???" types replying, and I can't believe people think it's some big gotcha. Every group of people has terrible people. Muslims don't have a monopoly on crime lmao and dictating what they wear won't change someone whose mind is set on doing something bad

You from Dearborn?

[Canis Rex]

Yeah, here's the thing. When Muslims are in a country not governed by their religion their rules no longer apply. No you cannot harass or belittle women because they don't dress to your preferences and your prophet is not immune to being depicted. If those two things are truly so integral to your religion that you expect a foreign nation to obey them as well or you're crying foul then your religion, not the country you're in, is the problem.
Also, guess the Pakistan highlight didn't work out since we're just dropping that.

There is literally nowhere in Islam where you are allowed to harass or belittle a woman for not wearing a burqa, niqab prime hijab. That doesn’t mean you should be allowed to force them not to wear a burqa, niqab or hijab.

Tell that to them then cause way too many seem to think differently.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

There is literally nowhere in Islam where you are allowed to harass or belittle a woman for not wearing a burqa, niqab prime hijab. That doesn’t mean you should be allowed to force them not to wear a burqa, niqab or hijab.

Tell that to them then cause way too many seem to think differently.

Alot of veiled women do it voluntarily. They think their religion itself commands them to do it, and the reason they veil goes beyond just the threat of violence. Millions of women deeply believe this is necessary. I don't agree with it and I think hiding your face to "be treated with respect" is fucking stupid, but that's how it is I guess.

[Salus Maior]

The problem with representative democracy is that Majority rules so a Muslim majority nation runs the democracy, the minority who does not agree or abide by Muslim law must go elseware. Vise versa. That's why mass immigration and citizenship without assimilation is a bad thing for a nation of people with a distinct people and culture and religion and so on. The nature of democracy forces homogeneity on peoples within its juristiction.

Well, in Switzerland's case that's not going to really be an issue.

It's incredibly difficult for someone to become a citizen in Switzerland. In fact, one can be born there and live their entire life in Switzerland and not get citizenship, it's that difficult.

Mostly because the communes themselves have to vote to allow you to become a citizen, another function of Swiss direct democracy. That's difficult for everyone but Muslims especially don't usually make the cut.

In fact, 30% or so of the Swiss population aren't citizens for this reason.

[Shokpos]

Yikes, the more and more I hear about Switzerland, the less I like it. I used to look up to their system of government, kinda still do, but their society doesn't mix well with it.

[Miku the Based]

Yikes, the more and more I hear about Switzerland, the less I like it. I used to look up to their system of government, kinda still do, but their society doesn't mix well with it.

Their society is a result of their system of governance and does in fact mix well with it. They made decisions like this before, during Nazi Germany times and the interwar period they introduced a concept of Geistige Landesverteidigung which I believe this is a continuation of. Making Romansh a National language, making another language in a german speaking Canton recognized and outlawing any national referendum for Swizzerland to be Annexed by germany were all methods to preserve it's soverignty and I think this face covering ban is just one of its methods using the same concept.