French Politics Thread I: Borne to be wild

[Kowani]

French National Assembly adopted legislation that characterizes sex between adults and minors under 15 as rape. The bill now goes to the French Senate and may become law by April

The bill, which also includes a provision that would make incest a specific crime, will go to the Senate this month and is expected to get final approval in April. The incest ban would also apply to sexual relationships between children under 18 and their step parents.

That lawmakers agreed on setting an age of consent only three years after having voted against a similar law largely reflects the impact of a series of recent sexual abuse scandals. French law already prohibited sex between an adult and a minor under the age of 15, but it was not automatically considered rape. Further circumstances, such as the use of coercion, threats, or violence, were necessary to characterize such sexual relationships as rape.France in 2018 toughened laws against sex crimes and extended the statute of limitations for rape against a minor to 30 years from 20 years, but lawmakers had stopped short of setting an age of sexual consent, citing legal complications.

Some lawmakers, following warnings from France’s Constitutional Council, were worried that setting an age of consent would automatically criminalize sexual relationships between a minor under the age of consent and a person only a few years older. The council reviews legislation to ensure it complies with the French Constitution.

In response, the new bill includes a “Romeo and Juliet” clause that would allow for sexual relationships between a children under 15 and an adult up to five years older. This clause would not apply in rape or assault cases.

“I do not want to put a kid aged 18 on trial because he had a consenting relationship with a girl of 14-and-a-half,” Mr. Dupond-Moretti said.

Alexandra Louis, a French lawmaker supporting the bill, said that the provisions that had been added to bill, such as the Romeo and Juliet clause, gave her hope that the measure would be approved by the Constitutional Council.

Some 300 amendments were discussed but the bill eventually passed unanimously and in one day. Ms. Louis said that the bill had “reached a consensus” and marked “a historic breakthrough.”

[Kilobugya]

French National Assembly adopted legislation that characterizes sex between adults and minors under 15 as rape. The bill now goes to the French Senate and may become law by April

While I definitely do approve protecting children/young teenagers against sexual abuse, I always feel uncomfortable with strict age limits. There are likely cases where sex between a 14 yo and a 18 yo is consensual and not harming anyone, while there are many cases of sex between a 15 yo and an adult that would be abusive / rape.

But the main issue isn't so much the legality but how the law is enforced. First it already was illegal, just not necessarily considered "rape" but "sexual abuse". Change the legal qualification has some consequences, but it's not such a fundamental change.

Most importantly, the victims often don't speak about what they went through, or don't speak of it to law enforcement at least. And for somewhat good reasons, most cops aren't well trained in handling a traumatized kid/teenager. That's mostly were the focus should be - having specially trained police officers to handle the victims, having more funds given to social workers to investigate suspicious cases, more funds to the justice system so trials don't take so many years, and so on. But that costs money, so it's a no-no, while voting such laws that won't change much but gives them good PR by appearing to be protecting children doesn't cost anything.

[Madrinpoor]

French National Assembly adopted legislation that characterizes sex between adults and minors under 15 as rape. The bill now goes to the French Senate and may become law by April

While I definitely do approve protecting children/young teenagers against sexual abuse, I always feel uncomfortable with strict age limits. There are likely cases where sex between a 14 yo and a 18 yo is consensual and not harming anyone, while there are many cases of sex between a 15 yo and an adult that would be abusive / rape.

But the main issue isn't so much the legality but how the law is enforced. First it already was illegal, just not necessarily considered "rape" but "sexual abuse". Change the legal qualification has some consequences, but it's not such a fundamental change.

Most importantly, the victims often don't speak about what they went through, or don't speak of it to law enforcement at least. And for somewhat good reasons, most cops aren't well trained in handling a traumatized kid/teenager. That's mostly were the focus should be - having specially trained police officers to handle the victims, having more funds given to social workers to investigate suspicious cases, more funds to the justice system so trials don't take so many years, and so on. But that costs money, so it's a no-no, while voting such laws that won't change much but gives them good PR by appearing to be protecting children doesn't cost anything.

Yeah, it seems like the bill won't do very much to solve the problem.

[Kowani]

Europe’s highest court rules that French hunters should no longer be allowed to use the traditional technique for trapping wild birds with glue

For centuries, people around the world have caught birds by trapping them on branches smeared with an adhesive known as bird lime. This method of hunting is considered brutal, however, and known to trap multiple species beyond the sought-after thrushes and blackbirds.

Along with the European Commission, the EU’s executive branch, French conservation groups went to court against five departments of southern France that still allow the practice banned everywhere else in the European Union.

Nixing arguments from the French government that tradition justifies preserving the method, the European Court of Justice concluded Wednesday that the traps do “irreparable harm” to a large number of birds that touch the glue.

“The fact that a method of capture of birds, such as the method of hunting using limes, is traditional is not, in itself, sufficient to establish that another satisfactory solution cannot be used instead,” the court said in a statement. An English version of the ruling was not immediately available. Glue traps are considered so bad because a large number of birds, including protected and threatened species, end up caught in the glue, which can fatally damage their feathers.

French hunters disagree and say they clean the glue off birds they catch and release the ones they don’t want. But the Luxembourg court took issue with that argument, calling it “highly likely that, despite being cleaned, the birds captured sustain irreparable harm.” Still, the EU court left it up to Council of State to make a final assessment about the damage caused by glue traps.

The Luxembourg court said France cannot not exempt glue traps from the EU’s bird protection rules without providing “a detailed statement of reasons based on the best relevant scientific knowledge.”

It added that “the preservation of traditional activities” cannot on its own be a reason for “an autonomous derogation” from the directive. Directives are legal acts the EU’s transnational political bodies agree on to achieve policy goals and each EU government adopts the EU rules into their national laws. National governments are given a lot of leeway in adopting EU rules, however, as France did when it allowed the use of glue traps.

French hunters argue they rely on glue traps to capture birds that they use as decoys to lure birds they hunt. But the court told French authorities to study other methods hunters may use to get birds as decoys. One likely solution, the court said, is for hunters to use birds bred in captivity.

French law restricts the number of hunters who can use glue traps and requires hunters to only catch a small number of birds for their personal use as decoys. The French law also requires hunters not to leave the glue traps unattended and to clean off birds they aren’t supposed to catch and release them.

But that French law will likely now have to be changed. National courts are required to carry out rulings by the EU court, the final word on EU law.

[Kilobugya]

So our Covid situation is totally out of control and they... limit people from moving more than 10 km. Do they really think it'll change anything ? People will still get packed on public transports, children will still eat at 100+ in poorly ventilated school restaurants, ...

Two people I knew died from Covid in the last few days. And it's not just me. We have over 200 deaths a day, every day, week after week, month after month, and they do... next to nothing. With no planning, no anticipation, no long-term vision, no preparation. How many families broken, how many people lost dear friends ? And how many will have long-term consequences from ICU and "long covid" ? How many people will die because their cancer surgery was delayed due to hospitals being totally saturated ? What about the suffering of heathcare workers, seeing death after death, completely overwhelmed after decades of reduced budgets and one year of gov incompetence ? They don't care, as long as people can go to work.

I'm really really sick of that government always doing too few, too late, disregarding the advice and concerns of scientists and doctors, doing political "bets" on thousands of lives. It's criminal negligence. Mixed with a disgusting level of arrogance and vanity.

[Nakena]

So our Covid situation is totally out of control and they... limit people from moving more than 10 km. Do they really think it'll change anything ? People will still get packed on public transports, children will still eat at 100+ in poorly ventilated school restaurants, ...

No. Schools need to be closed. Basically everything where people cluster up in closed spaces in huge groups for prolonged time is kill. Public transport is also a problem but cannot be avoided unlike school.

Two people I knew died from Covid in the last few days. And it's not just me. We have over 200 deaths a day, every day, week after week, month after month, and they do... next to nothing. With no planning, no anticipation, no long-term vision, no preparation. How many families broken, how many people lost dear friends ? And how many will have long-term consequences from ICU and "long covid" ? How many people will die because their cancer surgery was delayed due to hospitals being totally saturated ? What about the suffering of heathcare workers, seeing death after death, completely overwhelmed after decades of reduced budgets and one year of gov incompetence ? They don't care, as long as people can go to work.

I'm really really sick of that government always doing too few, too late, disregarding the advice and concerns of scientists and doctors, doing political "bets" on thousands of lives. It's criminal negligence. Mixed with a disgusting level of arrogance and vanity.

I don't get why french response has been so, I assume theres also problems with vaccine shortages? Well the EU fucked that up. Fuck the EU. They can get lost.

[Kilobugya]

No. Schools need to be closed. Basically everything where people cluster up in closed spaces in huge groups for prolonged time is kill.

Indeed. Closing schools has lots of consequences, but in the situation we are in, it needs to be done, at least for 2-3 weeks. And measures should be taken for a safer re-opening, such as better ventilation and better accommodation for lunch.

Public transport is also a problem but cannot be avoided unlike school.

Public transports can't be totally avoided, but can be mitigated. By imposing remote working whenever possible (it's up to employers right now), by closing non essential activities, by having shorter or shifted work schedules to avoid everyone packing in them at 6:00-9:00 and 16:00-19:00.

I don't get why french response has been so

In my opinion it's a mix of wanting to preserve the economy rather than people's life (and closing schools mean the parents can't go to work) and of blind arrogance from our Jupiter.

I assume theres also problems with vaccine shortages? Well the EU fucked that up. Fuck the EU. They can get lost.

Yeah the vaccine situation is pretty bad too. To me the main issue is being so dependent of the pharmaceutical groups, instead of imposing a legal license and producing the vaccines ourselves (which could have been started as early in October, when we had the preliminary results of the Pfizer and Moderna phase 3 studies). But yes the EU did mess up the negotiations. And we still don't allow the Russian vaccine (Sputnik V) nor any Chinese ones, due to some kind of western arrogance (US/UK vaccines must be better than the oriental ones) and geopolitical reasons.

[Pomeron]

Looks like France is heading for a third wave. I hope this isn't a sign of things across wider Europe. Maybe not the time to suspend and squabble over AZ vaccines.

[Kowani]

Looks like France is heading for a third wave. I hope this isn't a sign of things across wider Europe. Maybe not the time to suspend and squabble over AZ vaccines.

It is.

[Kilobugya]

Looks like France is heading for a third wave. I hope this isn't a sign of things across wider Europe. Maybe not the time to suspend and squabble over AZ vaccines.

Number of people in ICU due to covid :



Definitely looks like a third wave (although the second wave never truly ended due to the gov only taking half-measures).

[Pomeron]

Looks like France is heading for a third wave. I hope this isn't a sign of things across wider Europe. Maybe not the time to suspend and squabble over AZ vaccines.

It is.

The vaccine roll out in Europe (especially France) feels slow compared to the UK and USA. I wonder why? I know many blame the EMA but really I don't think that would impact it so much.

[Kilobugya]

The vaccine roll out in Europe (especially France) feels slow compared to the UK and USA. I wonder why? I know many blame the EMA but really I don't think that would impact it so much.

USA and UK bought more vaccines at higher prices, from what I understood. And since they are the ones producing the Pfizer, Moderna (USA) and AstraZeneca (UK) vaccines, they have some kind of priority access. And EU so far has been very reluctant to accept Russian or Chinese vaccines, buying only from USA/UK. And refusing to break the patents/impose legal license.

But also in France things have been chaotic and poorly handled due to the gov preferring PR operation over planing, and being so arrogant they tend to not listen to the medical staff. It's the same on every topic - they decide "protocols" for schools alone without accepting or asking any feedback/ideas/validation of feasibility from teachers, schools principles, students, parents. They decide vaccination strategies alone without listening for any feedback from professionals, and when things go sour and they get ridiculed in the media, they shift to something else with no long-term planning.

I would say it's their whole ideology - Macron is what he calls the "new world". The world of startups, of dynamic provisioning, of dictator-like self-proclaimed geniuses Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos having their "vision" and following it confidently. It's not the "old world" of planning in advance, of listening to feedback, of trusting professionals.

[Pomeron]

The vaccine roll out in Europe (especially France) feels slow compared to the UK and USA. I wonder why? I know many blame the EMA but really I don't think that would impact it so much.

USA and UK bought more vaccines at higher prices, from what I understood. And since they are the ones producing the Pfizer, Moderna (USA) and AstraZeneca (UK) vaccines, they have some kind of priority access. And EU so far has been very reluctant to accept Russian or Chinese vaccines, buying only from USA/UK. And refusing to break the patents/impose legal license.

I read the "higher prices" thing was not true and just a PR cover by the EU countries (maybe there's an element of truth to both sides, I don't know).

But also in France things have been chaotic and poorly handled due to the gov preferring PR operation over planing, and being so arrogant they tend to not listen to the medical staff. It's the same on every topic - they decide "protocols" for schools alone without accepting or asking any feedback/ideas/validation of feasibility from teachers, schools principles, students, parents. They decide vaccination strategies alone without listening for any feedback from professionals, and when things go sour and they get ridiculed in the media, they shift to something else with no long-term planning.

I would say it's their whole ideology - Macron is what he calls the "new world". The world of startups, of dynamic provisioning, of dictator-like self-proclaimed geniuses Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos having their "vision" and following it confidently. It's not the "old world" of planning in advance, of listening to feedback, of trusting professionals.

I think too many countries have been too concerned with how good they look. You can see it the world over. The ones where they have had success have been where leaders are just getting on without worrying of the fallout in popularity.

[Kubra]

French National Assembly adopted legislation that characterizes sex between adults and minors under 15 as rape. The bill now goes to the French Senate and may become law by April

While I definitely do approve protecting children/young teenagers against sexual abuse, I always feel uncomfortable with strict age limits. There are likely cases where sex between a 14 yo and a 18 yo is consensual and not harming anyone, while there are many cases of sex between a 15 yo and an adult that would be abusive / rape.

But the main issue isn't so much the legality but how the law is enforced. First it already was illegal, just not necessarily considered "rape" but "sexual abuse". Change the legal qualification has some consequences, but it's not such a fundamental change.

Most importantly, the victims often don't speak about what they went through, or don't speak of it to law enforcement at least. And for somewhat good reasons, most cops aren't well trained in handling a traumatized kid/teenager. That's mostly were the focus should be - having specially trained police officers to handle the victims, having more funds given to social workers to investigate suspicious cases, more funds to the justice system so trials don't take so many years, and so on. But that costs money, so it's a no-no, while voting such laws that won't change much but gives them good PR by appearing to be protecting children doesn't cost anything.

hooo I don't want to sound victorian but the 14 and 18 pairing well it just don't sit right, you know?
I dunno why I think it, I know of no good reason, but I really do prefer the additional year.

[Madrinpoor]

The vaccine response will bring down Macron, I am betting. Even though I support him, or at least LREM, I don't think that he is handling this crisis right, and many French don't either. However, I doubt Le Pen would handle it better, and likely would handle it worse. Maybe Hidalgo or someone would be better. I don't know. I just hope that it isn't Le Pen that profits from this chaos.

[Kilobugya]

hooo I don't want to sound victorian but the 14 and 18 pairing well it just don't sit right, you know?
I dunno why I think it, I know of no good reason, but I really do prefer the additional year.

I'm definitely not saying it's something we should encourage - but considering it to automatically be rape and threatening a 18yo teenager with 20 years of prison for consensual sex with a 14yo teenager does seem a tad excessive to me. We really ought to consider the details of the case and relationship and not automatically call it "rape".

But that was really a minor issue I have with this law - the main issue is that's mostly grandstanding to appear tough against those who sexually abuse children for cheap, without actually changing much in reality, because that would require increases in funding which they aren't ready to do and would go against their logic of austerity and cutting gov spending and taxes.

[Kilobugya]

I wonder sometimes if our government isn't trying to win a prize in the comedy section.

So yesterday our ministry of interior announced proudly they seized a huge quantify of drug... but it was in fact powder to make "fraise tagada", a popular candy.

And today, for the new "lockdown" (with schools and workplaces open, so not actually a lockdown but well), we were supposed to fill a paper ("deorgatory attestation") to go out, even if just to buy a baguette. But there were so many possible cases that the "paper" was two pages long, and everyone made fun of them, so finally the paper that was just published this morning won't be necessary anymore.

Sure none of those two things are a big deal... but since Macron took power it's always such chaos, ill-designed plans, constant improvisation. And you wonder why we no longer trust them about anything... such a bunch of incompetents. "Proud to be amateurs" they said. Well, in the middle of a storm, I would prefer the captain of the ship to not be an amateur.

[Risottia]

... but since Macron took power it's always such chaos, ill-designed plans, constant improvisation...

Just imagine what would happen if there were a Le Pen at L'Élisée. Suddenly Macron will look like the best thing since the mayonnaise.

[Kilobugya]

Just imagine what would happen if there were a Le Pen at L'Élisée. Suddenly Macron will look like the best thing since the mayonnaise.

I really hope it won't come again to having chose between those two... but as long as "the left" can't unite, that seems to be our fate

[Kowani]

Just imagine what would happen if there were a Le Pen at L'Élisée. Suddenly Macron will look like the best thing since the mayonnaise.

I really hope it won't come again to having chose between those two... but as long as "the left" can't unite, that seems to be our fate

This is a problem in many countries
The fractured French left is just…worst off than most

[The Blaatschapen]

French National Assembly adopted legislation that characterizes sex between adults and minors under 15 as rape. The bill now goes to the French Senate and may become law by April

The bill, which also includes a provision that would make incest a specific crime, will go to the Senate this month and is expected to get final approval in April. The incest ban would also apply to sexual relationships between children under 18 and their step parents.

That lawmakers agreed on setting an age of consent only three years after having voted against a similar law largely reflects the impact of a series of recent sexual abuse scandals. French law already prohibited sex between an adult and a minor under the age of 15, but it was not automatically considered rape. Further circumstances, such as the use of coercion, threats, or violence, were necessary to characterize such sexual relationships as rape.France in 2018 toughened laws against sex crimes and extended the statute of limitations for rape against a minor to 30 years from 20 years, but lawmakers had stopped short of setting an age of sexual consent, citing legal complications.

Some lawmakers, following warnings from France’s Constitutional Council, were worried that setting an age of consent would automatically criminalize sexual relationships between a minor under the age of consent and a person only a few years older. The council reviews legislation to ensure it complies with the French Constitution.

In response, the new bill includes a “Romeo and Juliet” clause that would allow for sexual relationships between a children under 15 and an adult up to five years older. This clause would not apply in rape or assault cases.

“I do not want to put a kid aged 18 on trial because he had a consenting relationship with a girl of 14-and-a-half,” Mr. Dupond-Moretti said.

Alexandra Louis, a French lawmaker supporting the bill, said that the provisions that had been added to bill, such as the Romeo and Juliet clause, gave her hope that the measure would be approved by the Constitutional Council.

Some 300 amendments were discussed but the bill eventually passed unanimously and in one day. Ms. Louis said that the bill had “reached a consensus” and marked “a historic breakthrough.”

Under 15s... good, because Macron met his 24 year older wife when he was 15

[Kilobugya]

Under 15s... good, because Macron met his 24 year older wife when he was 15

He might even have been 14 But as much as I dislike Macron, both on the politics he implements and the arrogant, authoritarian ways he uses, I don't care much about that particular point. I don't know what they really did when he was a teenager, and I don't care. As long as there is no coercion or abuse, it's their life and not my business, not mine to judge him or her.

[Arisyan]

Huh, I thought people would be talking about Lyon banning meat in school lunches. Well, I guess im beating out Kowani with the news.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/worl ... -meat.html

[Kilobugya]

Huh, I thought people would be talking about Lyon banning meat in school lunches. Well, I guess im beating out Kowani with the news.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/worl ... -meat.html

As the article explained, the school restaurant used to offer a choice of two meals, one with meat and one without, which seems a fine thing to do to me.

But due to Covid-19 and a need to make things more streamlined in the restaurant so less students will be packed there, the mayor ordered a single menu, without meat, for everyone. Not as long-term or radical vegan thing, but only temporarily due to Covid. Which seems a bit weird to me, I would have the meat menu the single menu then. But the main problem is keeping schools and school restaurants open when we have 200-300 deaths every day, saturated hospitals, and out of control Covid. That issue is just a distraction from the real problem.

[Kowani]

Huh, I thought people would be talking about Lyon banning meat in school lunches. Well, I guess im beating out Kowani with the news.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/worl ... -meat.html

I do not, in fact, radically check papers for every update everywhere