Corporal Punishment

[Zul-ar]

It's been a couple months since the previous thread, so why not revive it?

For the purposes of this thread, corporal punishment encompasses all types of physical punishment in which physical force is used and intended to cause some degree of pain or discomfort, however light, as well as non-physical forms of punishment that are cruel and degrading. It also may include forcing a child to consume unpleasant substances such as soap, hot sauce, or hot pepper.

You just defined corporal punishment in a way which applies to everyone, then tossed the unpleasant substances in, only for children.

One could conclude that ONLY the unpleasant substances should be used on children, and separately we're supposed to discuss corporal punishment used on adults.

My bad, it's been corrected.

[Zul-ar]

Opt in by each (and both) parents, or else I'd give them the right to sue the teacher/school. It's simply unacceptable that a parent should have to choose between a public school where their child might get hit by teachers, and private or home schooling. That is not a free choice.

I don't believe much teachers would use it anyways. It would just be an option for more serious offenses.

Why should it be an option at all? As A-Series-Of-Tubes has stated, it seems unfair to put parents, especially low-income ones who cannot afford an alternative to public school, in a situation where in order to get their child basic education they put them in a position to be attacked by teachers. It isn't the school's place to discipline students to that extent.

[Disgraces]

I didn't get that message.

You specifically not getting that message means nothing in the broader scope of things, or against the evidence of studies.

=Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence)]When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine.

It does.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

I didn't get that message.

I don't see what else seeing corporal punishment as an acceptable recourse ultimately boils down to.

Well pain. Meaningless pain only teaches some lessons: don't pat a stranger's dog, don't put your hand in fire. Neither of which is a particularly good lesson come to think of it.

Violence, being the deliberate infliction of pain (and usually some physical harm too, an ache for instance) has a personal meaning to the recipient. "In this moment, I hate you." Insisting verbally that it's "because I love you" only degrades the word "love" and causes confusion. This personal aspect of deliberately causing pain cuts in at the threshold of pain itself, rendering excuses like "it's just a smack" rather meaningless. A poster here explained it once as "it's more about humiliation than pain" but for some reason they were alright with that. They may have been the one who called it "infantilizing" too. Both correctly characterized smacking/hitting as an abuse of power.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Corporal punishment should be fully criminalized and anyone who engages in it charged with battery.

[Disgraces]

I didn't get that message.

I don't see what else seeing corporal punishment as an acceptable recourse ultimately boils down to.

I behaved like a demon; I was slapped in the face; I stopped behaving like a demon

[Zul-ar]

You specifically not getting that message means nothing in the broader scope of things, or against the evidence of studies.

=Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence)]When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine.

It does.

Does it?

Researchers may use anecdotal evidence for suggesting new hypotheses, but never as validating evidence.[15]

Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific or pseudoscientific because various forms of cognitive bias may affect the collection or presentation of evidence

In any case where some factor affects the probability of an outcome, rather than uniquely determining it, selected individual cases prove nothing; e.g. "my grandfather smoked two packs a day until he died at 90" and "my sister never smoked but died of lung cancer". Anecdotes often refer to the exception, rather than the rule

[The New California Republic]

Giving children the message that violence is the way to deal with problems isn't really a good thing...

I didn't get that message.

And?

[Glorious Hong Kong]

I got spanked repeatedly by my Asian parents due to my short temperament and possible high-functioning autism. I will judge them by the standards of the time. Namely, I forgive them and we've reconciled. Today, more and more Asian parents are increasingly of the mind that physical pain should never, ever be inflicted on a child, including a family member of my generation and their spouse, who have never, ever spanked their child.

Corporal punishment, especially when used against small children, is absolutely medieval and barbaric and should never, ever be condoned or legally sanctioned, and I have some choice words against anyone who practices it or defends such barbarism. Words I shall not utter here due to site rules on flaming and trolling. I have a feeling there are others here who feel exactly as I do and this thread's going to get derailed very quickly.

If I see a parent caning their child, my immediate instinct would be to walk up to them and savagely beat them to a pulp if it's a man or slap her really hard repeatedly if it's a woman. Not that I would actually do it, but that's the first thought that would pop into my head. If I saw a parent lightly slap their totally non-hysterical, not-screaming-and-out-of-control child, I would strongly disapprove.

I've vowed never to spank my kids if ever I have them. I'm a civilized human being and I don't do physical violence. If I ever found out a schoolteacher was spanking my child, I would immediately complain. I did not give them permission to do so and they should be fired at the very least if it's legal and jailed if it's illegal. In Malaysia, corporal punishment is sadly legal.

I even have a problem with corporal punishment when used against adults. My country canes rapists, gays, lesbians, and other assorted "criminals". Even the death penalty is far more humane than this crap, and I support the death penalty in certain instances.

If husbands ever beat or even merely slapped their wives, everyone would immediately come down on them like a ton of bricks. A small child is far more vulnerable and far more easily traumatized than a grown woman. Spanking a child should be considered 100 times more criminal and barbaric than spanking a woman. Spanking is the language of organized crime syndicates, butchering tyrants, and classic playground bullies. It is the language of might makes right.

That said, we mustn't be too quick to assume that bruises on a child automatically mean they're being abused. Maybe they're sleepwalking and bumping into things during the night, or they have some kind of autoimmune condition or something. Maybe the parents themselves don't fully understand what's happening with their child. Social workers must examine every possibility, including abuse. We don't want to see any wrongful deprivations of child custody or criminal convictions.

Giving children the message that violence is the way to deal with problems isn't really a good thing...

I didn't get that message.

I did, and I knew deep down that it was wrong.

[Saiwania]

Its the best punishment that can be given for at least some situations.

Giving children the message that violence is the way to deal with problems isn't really a good thing...

If someone never uses physical force ever for anything, they're going to be perceived as a wimp who can be defeated by anyone stronger who comes along.

I even have a problem with corporal punishment when used against adults. My country canes rapists, gays, lesbians, and other assorted "criminals". Even the death penalty is far more humane than this crap, and I support the death penalty in certain instances.

What a load of claptrap, at least if someone is beaten they have the chance to recover and will still be alive. Maybe someone isn't quite ready to die and it'd be more wasteful to execute them if they'd otherwise live for decades more.

[Kilobugya]

I behaved like a demon; I was slapped in the face; I stopped behaving like a demon

I got sick, I staid in bed and watched Lord of the Rings, then I stopped being sick. Lord of the Rings should be given to all sick people !

You can't judge the efficiency of something from one anecdotal case. You can't know if it's not just growing up, or being tired of it. You can't know if other methods to stop you wouldn't have worked even better, and without the pain inflicted. You can't know if it didn't have, or didn't carry the risk to have, long-term negative consequences. And since we don't know much about you, it's unfair to throw at us ill-defined episodes of your life, because often little details could contradict the consequence you draw from the anecdote, but we have no way of knowing them.

All this to explain why one anecdotal evidence from your personal life it's very bad argument to bring to such kind of debates.

We need to reason from core principles (ie, hurting a child is morally wrong), general principles (ie, a huge part of education is actually showing the good example, and using corporal punishment gives the example that physically abusing those who can't defend is good), and scientific studies (which overwhelmingly show that corporal punishment leads to many short-term and long-term negative consequences, while children raised without them tend to be happier, more healthy and more successful).

[The New California Republic]

Giving children the message that violence is the way to deal with problems isn't really a good thing...

If someone never uses physical force ever for anything, they're going to be perceived as a wimp who can be defeated by anyone stronger who comes along.

There's a difference between knowing about self defence and hitting a child. I would have thought that obvious, but clearly not...

[Saiwania]

There's a difference between knowing about self defence and hitting a child. I would have thought that obvious, but clearly not...

Sometimes a child who's genuinely behaving very badly needs to be disciplined physically. Look up that one episode of the Boondocks where this child is throwing a trantrum in the grocery store and damaging inventory. There no way there was any better solution than to have his mom pull the belt out on him and strike his backside until he know not to ever pull that crap ever again.

[The New California Republic]

There's a difference between knowing about self defence and hitting a child. I would have thought that obvious, but clearly not...

Sometimes a child who's genuinely behaving very badly needs to be disciplined physically. Look up that one episode of the Boondocks where this child is throwing a trantrum in the grocery store and damaging inventory. There no way there was any better solution than to have his mom pull the belt out on him and strike his backside until he know not to ever pull that crap ever again.

Yes, there very much are a whole host of strategies to deal with it without resorting to violence. Removing the child from the place where they are throwing the tantrum, using distractions etc. More often than not a tantrum is entirely preventable, by having the child be a part of the experience, for example by turning the situation into a game.

[Kilobugya]

Sometimes a child who's genuinely behaving very badly needs to be disciplined physically. Look up that one episode of the Boondocks where this child is throwing a trantrum in the grocery store and damaging inventory. There no way there was any better solution than to have his mom pull the belt out on him and strike his backside until he know not to ever pull that crap ever again.

That's wrong at many levels. First, an adult does have the physical strength to restrain a child without hurting him. The child is breaking things, grab the child, firmly but without inflicting pain, and withdraw the child from the place. And then deal with things once the child cooled down.

Then, you should realize that a child is not... complete. Especially his brain. He's still building himself. When a child "throws a tantrum" it usually means that his brain is actually unable to cope with the situation, in a state of neurotransmitter inbalance, and just acts in a non-rational way, because he's overwhelmed. That's something not so uncommon in grocery stores, where his vulnerable in-construction brains gets overwhelmed with lots of stimulus, bright light and packaging, noise, desire to get things, ... Hitting a child in that situation will be of no help. You'll add stress hormones to an already weakened brain. That will have long-lasting negative consequences on his ability to learn and control himself.

And he won't "know not to ever pull that crap ever again". At most, he'll be scared enough to not the "throw the tantrum" next time, being paralyzed with fear instead, which again is quite bad for his future psycological health. And he'll actually be _more_ prone to throw a tantrum or engage destructive, reckless behavior again, when he'll be with different people or a different place and feel (rightfully or not) that this time he won't get punished. That's what scientific studies have shown - corporal punishment _increases_ the chance of bad behavior when the kid feels he'll be able to avoid the punishment.

Because it doesn't teach the child about right or wrong. It doesn't teach the child how to handle stimulus overwhelm, contradicting desires, stress, or tiredness. It doesn't help the child construct himself a well working, balanced brain. It only teaches the child fear and pain, and how to avoid them.

[Mercatus]

Corporal Punishment is efficient and effective, and should be promoted to Sergeant.

Give my man here a fuckin’ medal. That was gold.

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

Sometimes a child who's genuinely behaving very badly needs to be disciplined physically. Look up that one episode of the Boondocks where this child is throwing a trantrum in the grocery store and damaging inventory. There no way there was any better solution than to have his mom pull the belt out on him and strike his backside until he know not to ever pull that crap ever again.

That's wrong at many levels. First, an adult does have the physical strength to restrain a child without hurting him. The child is breaking things, grab the child, firmly but without inflicting pain, and withdraw the child from the place. And then deal with things once the child cooled down.

Then, you should realize that a child is not... complete. Especially his brain. He's still building himself. When a child "throws a tantrum" it usually means that his brain is actually unable to cope with the situation, in a state of neurotransmitter inbalance, and just acts in a non-rational way, because he's overwhelmed. That's something not so uncommon in grocery stores, where his vulnerable in-construction brains gets overwhelmed with lots of stimulus, bright light and packaging, noise, desire to get things, ... Hitting a child in that situation will be of no help. You'll add stress hormones to an already weakened brain. That will have long-lasting negative consequences on his ability to learn and control himself.

And he won't "know not to ever pull that crap ever again". At most, he'll be scared enough to not the "throw the tantrum" next time, being paralyzed with fear instead, which again is quite bad for his future psycological health. And he'll actually be _more_ prone to throw a tantrum or engage destructive, reckless behavior again, when he'll be with different people or a different place and feel (rightfully or not) that this time he won't get punished. That's what scientific studies have shown - corporal punishment _increases_ the chance of bad behavior when the kid feels he'll be able to avoid the punishment.

Because it doesn't teach the child about right or wrong. It doesn't teach the child how to handle stimulus overwhelm, contradicting desires, stress, or tiredness. It doesn't help the child construct himself a well working, balanced brain. It only teaches the child fear and pain, and how to avoid them.

I concur, having grown up in a house where my parents never gave reasons and hit me often.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

It doesn’t become okay when it is on a minor.
Like, that doesn’t apply for rape, so why should it apply for abuse?
People who think that corporal punishment is okay might as well be trying to legalise the rape of children.

[Punished UMN]

I'm okay with corporal punishment on adults as punishment for a crime adjudicated in court, within limits, but it shouldn't happen to children.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

I'm okay with corporal punishment on adults as punishment for a crime adjudicated in court, within limits, but it shouldn't happen to children.

I’m kinda neutral on this, corporal punishment on adults, except if really bad, will only give them the physical pain they experience in the moment, and not any future mental problems. But still, not the biggest fan.

[Obets]

I like how the corporal punishment map aligns with which states are democratic and republican states.

[Punished UMN]

I'm okay with corporal punishment on adults as punishment for a crime adjudicated in court, within limits, but it shouldn't happen to children.

I’m kinda neutral on this, corporal punishment on adults, except if really bad, will only give them the physical pain they experience in the moment, and not any future mental problems. But still, not the biggest fan.

I mean like, as opposed to prison time, which is far worse.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

in my experience, your parents hitting/yelling at you just makes you scared of authority figures and doesn't make you behave. predictably, i think corporal punishment is always wrong, abusive, and not even effective, and as such should be illegal.

also, i could kind of understand someone say "corporal punishment should not be used but should be legal" but what's the sense in saying it should be used but shouldn't be legal??

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

thought this thread was on capital punishment and was disappointed ;-;

[Odreria]

we had this exact thread like a month ago, and another exact thread like a month before that