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6 Dr. Seuss books no longer published due to racist imagery

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Were they right when they decided to no longer publish these books?

Yes. These books contain racist imagery.
53
17%
No. This is censorship.
100
33%
Maybe. I have mixed feelings about this decision.
55
18%
Who cares? Not like these were his most popular books.
69
23%
I don't know.
8
3%
Other
18
6%
 
Total votes : 303

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:57 pm

Giovenith wrote:The fact that they were the ones who made the call makes it a personal decision, nobody has the legal authority to halt publication of those books but them, so of course it was their decision. What you're really asking is whether or not they internally agree with this decision in their hearts and minds or if they only agreed to it for the cameras: This is something that nobody can know for sure because nobody can read minds. However, there is no reason to suspect that they don't mean exactly what they say.


When it's a person. Sure; you kind of take them at their word. When it's an entity in this time. It's easier to take the less combative approach and simply say "hey we are doing this" This avoids adding fuel to the existing fire which I am sure they expected.

When someone gives you their opinion or states their motivation behind their actions, it's really not reasonable for you to presume ambivalence or untruthfulness on their part when nothing they've said or done has implied a contradictory sentiment. That's just putting words in someone's mouth.


That's a rather glib interpretation. There is nothing wrong with wondering the motivation for action.

There is a great deal of effort to hunt for racism in these works. I read one article where somebody was suggesting the Cat in the Hat was a reference to a black man. If you check with the library association; they even get complaints for having the books and they should be removed.

Clearly a lot of people do agree that at least quite a few of the images are objectionable, so why couldn't or wouldn't they possess similar standards as those people?


I guess the problem is the intent versus the perception.

And even if they didn't really personally care and only made this decision after someone else convinced them to do so, that's still their call to make. They are allowed to value input from others and take it into consideration even if they don't completely understand it. I know that this is increasingly rare trait as public discourse becomes an increasingly hostile appeal-to-personal-confidence wankfest, but some people actually do care about being accommodating and not just assuming that their gut reaction always makes the best bets. Maybe you would have made a different decision under similar circumstances, but that doesn't make the Seuss family's decision any less of a legitimate one.


Well the problem is this growing trend of being offended by anything. It would be one thing if said drawings taught racism. The books taught racism. The problem? That tends to be taught by the family. I read most of his works growing up and didn't have thoughts of racism. Just a whimsical land with outlandish images. That might be I was also raised to be color blind when it came to people.

If they were pulled because they weren't selling; nobody would be having a fit.

The shame is a couple of the books might be good tools for starting discussions on matters of racism. We are not going to eliminate the problem with the adults. Some sure. Many will remain the same way. Would not the starting point be the children?
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:50 pm

At this point I think I'm just gonna write a book called Don't read this book, cause the N word is in here, and see how many people buy it just to flip through the mostly blank pages till they come to the middle and find the word Nickels. It's like people want to read racist books.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Jeromia
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Postby New Jeromia » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:24 pm

I’m not sure if anyone’s said this, but why wouldn’t they amend the racist imagery found in the books? They’re not exactly important parts of any of the books from what I’ve seen, and it would be a lot better than ceasing publication of the books. The strange thing is, the company’s profits soared after they cancelled the books, so I guess I know who their market is... Seriously though, Mulberry Street retails for ~$200 dollars on Amazon. Perhaps I can benefit from owning this new rarity.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:28 pm

New Jeromia wrote:I’m not sure if anyone’s said this, but why wouldn’t they amend the racist imagery found in the books? They’re not exactly important parts of any of the books from what I’ve seen, and it would be a lot better than ceasing publication of the books. The strange thing is, the company’s profits soared after they cancelled the books, so I guess I know who their market is... Seriously though, Mulberry Street retails for ~$200 dollars on Amazon. Perhaps I can benefit from owning this new rarity.

Much cheaper and easier to just stop printing a book then it is to have to make a whole new version just to remove a few parts of it. In the long term no one will care, there's plenty of copies that this little bubble will go away and if someone really wants a copy of Mulberry Street they can always find one.

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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:37 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:At this point I think I'm just gonna write a book called Don't read this book, cause the N word is in here, and see how many people buy it just to flip through the mostly blank pages till they come to the middle and find the word Nickels. It's like people want to read racist books.

Word would get out among the edgy rightist community that they want to see isn't in there.

That is, unless you print out versions of that book with various words that start with the letter N and actually drop the real word in a few of them. You'd probably get people buying those in bulk to try to find it.
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Nilokeras
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Postby Nilokeras » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:44 pm

New Jeromia wrote:I’m not sure if anyone’s said this, but why wouldn’t they amend the racist imagery found in the books? They’re not exactly important parts of any of the books from what I’ve seen, and it would be a lot better than ceasing publication of the books. The strange thing is, the company’s profits soared after they cancelled the books, so I guess I know who their market is... Seriously though, Mulberry Street retails for ~$200 dollars on Amazon. Perhaps I can benefit from owning this new rarity.


As has been noted several times, these books have been out of print for a very long time - in some cases since the 80's. They were probably worth way more than retail well before they announced that they were continuing to not publish this part of Seuss's less popular back catalogue. The guy wrote 60 books after all, and out of them maybe 5-10 were big long lasting hits in the popular culture and that people today would likely read to their kids.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Odreria
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Postby Odreria » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:02 am

Atheris wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
I do remember that bc it did. P.S. Google is your friend.

"[The Cat in the Hat] was as revolutionary as Kerensky"

Didn't Kerensky's government fail in a few months and not proclaim a republic until its last month in power?

Pretty sure that’s the joke
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Postby Dazchan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:00 am

New Jeromia wrote:I’m not sure if anyone’s said this, but why wouldn’t they amend the racist imagery found in the books?


I suspect it’s easier to stop publishing the books than it is to get Dr Seuss to redo the illustrations. He hasn’t done much drawing for the past two decades, after all...
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:32 am

Dazchan wrote:
New Jeromia wrote:I’m not sure if anyone’s said this, but why wouldn’t they amend the racist imagery found in the books?


I suspect it’s easier to stop publishing the books than it is to get Dr Seuss to redo the illustrations. He hasn’t done much drawing for the past two decades, after all...


He's deceased and it isn't the company's place to be editing any of Dr. Seuss' works. Any alterations not done by the author himself means its not by Dr. Seuss and thus its illegitimate. At least with JRR Tolkien, anything that Christopher Tolkien did came from primary sources that were verified and thus- if it was by JRR but wasn't published or finished before his death, then it can be taken as official canon if it was faithful to what JRR was going to write.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:56 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Wizlandia wrote:Agree with Dr. Seuss Enterprises should be allowed to publish or not publish.

The only quibble I have is that I think copyright protection should only last 25 years after first publication. Life of the author + 70 years is far too long.


Hmmm. Nah.

The way people are; you would see the Lorax supporting clean coal.

The Lorax was used to advertise a car.


Giovenith wrote:Remember when "cancel culture" referred to when someone dug through your ancient tweets to willfully misinterpret an obvious joke and publicly shame you for it, and not when a company, estate, or individual independently made a choice about their own property or future behavior that conservatives didn't like?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Remember five minutes before that when we talked about "cancelling" because it was some celebrity's TV show or comedy tour or something being literally cancelled.
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Postby Dogmeat » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:00 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
Nobody banned anything. His living family, who own the rights to his work, made the personal decision to no longer publish certain books with racist imagery in them without any prompt or pressure from anyone else.

Is there something mockery-worthy about choosing not to engage in an action (in this case, perpetuating these images) that you feel would be racist?


The news said it was a personal decision. Was it? They were particular to the offensive pictures and that is usually people complaining about them.

I imagine they were probably annoyed and getting complaints about them. Sure.
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:11 am

Dogmeat wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
The news said it was a personal decision. Was it? They were particular to the offensive pictures and that is usually people complaining about them.

I imagine they were probably annoyed and getting complaints about them. Sure.

They made this decision a year ago and are only following through on it now. I would think that if they were being inundated by complaints then they would have acted more swiftly.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:12 am

Dogmeat wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
The news said it was a personal decision. Was it? They were particular to the offensive pictures and that is usually people complaining about them.

I imagine they were probably annoyed and getting complaints about them. Sure.


And the Seuss foundation is a progressive liberal Organization, which is fine so was Seuss.

But what no one but me has talked about, is their role in teaching reading and developing curriculum guides for early childhood education of course featuring the books of Dr. Seuss. They take this role very seriously.
There shouldn't be negative stereotypes of folks in them, we want all kids to learn to read in a fun and happy environment.
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Dogmeat
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Postby Dogmeat » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:14 am

Ifreann wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:I imagine they were probably annoyed and getting complaints about them. Sure.

They made this decision a year ago and are only following through on it now. I would think that if they were being inundated by complaints then they would have acted more swiftly.

Oh, I'm not saying this is a new development.

That was meant as a more dismissive, "yeah, they probably were getting complaints about the racist images." Because, duh.
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:35 am

Seems like a good decision by them, rather silly to be upset about. Ethel knows what's up.
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The united American-Isreali empire
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Postby The united American-Isreali empire » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:40 am

just so sad, cencorship is aweful.

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Postby Vassenor » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:06 am

The united American-Isreali empire wrote:just so sad, cencorship is aweful.


Is it censorship when it's the author themselves or their designated representatives deciding to do so?
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:10 am

The united American-Isreali empire wrote:just so sad, cencorship is aweful.

I'm not leftist, but this is not really censorship.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:03 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Hmmm. Nah.

The way people are; you would see the Lorax supporting clean coal.

The Lorax was used to advertise a car.


Oh.....I missed that :( Well? If it was an electric car?. Still it's wrong.
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Postby The Holy Therns » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:05 am

The united American-Isreali empire wrote:just so sad, cencorship is aweful.


Might be true, is definitely unrelated.
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:27 am

The Holy Therns wrote:
The united American-Isreali empire wrote:just so sad, cencorship is aweful.


Might be true, is definitely unrelated.

Censorship is awful, but this isn't censorship. It's a company refusing to sell a book. It's something that people should just ignore, but culture warriors got to culture war.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:29 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:I imagine they were probably annoyed and getting complaints about them. Sure.


And the Seuss foundation is a progressive liberal Organization, which is fine so was Seuss.

But what no one but me has talked about, is their role in teaching reading and developing curriculum guides for early childhood education of course featuring the books of Dr. Seuss. They take this role very seriously.
There shouldn't be negative stereotypes of folks in them, we want all kids to learn to read in a fun and happy environment.


I didn't know that as it's something I don't follow.

As to the stereotypes; I remember a news blip over the issue. It involved a black woman and her children. She didn't know about the books and was :shock: when she saw the image. She said her two kids didn't think anything of them as they "fit" in the scene (I guess they meant the exaggerations of the scene). The woman admitted she didn't like it and yet it wasn't as offensive as others she had seen. She said she had mixed views as her children weren't bothered by them as she talked to them. Even she thought it could be used for a discussion about the problems. She wasn't sure removing them would make any impact with the problems.

Just one woman doesn't make the case. Just interesting as she was "level headed"

Anyway; what's done was done and it's not like they will be forced to print them again. Once the vultures loose interest and the prices drop to normal levels again; I might pick up one or two of them.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:37 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Anyway; what's done was done and it's not like they will be forced to print them again. Once the vultures loose interest and the prices drop to normal levels again; I might pick up one or two of them.


The books aren't going to drop to normal levels again, unless some warehouses full of unsold books are uncovered and released into circulation. People get that those works will become rare collectibles overtime because of scarcity, hence it'll be priced accordingly. If they refuse to print it anymore, then let it be public domain.

Ethel mermania wrote:But what no one but me has talked about, is their role in teaching reading and developing curriculum guides for early childhood education of course featuring the books of Dr. Seuss. They take this role very seriously.


Its all or nothing for me. If they see it fit to not make their entire library of books available, then I see it fit to boycott all works by the author that could conceivably send any profits to them. If their values or priorities aren't in sync with my own, then fine- I'll write them off as hopeless. Hopefully someone else might be able to buy off the rights if they ever run into any difficult times.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:44 pm

Saiwania wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Anyway; what's done was done and it's not like they will be forced to print them again. Once the vultures loose interest and the prices drop to normal levels again; I might pick up one or two of them.


The books aren't going to drop to normal levels again, unless some warehouses full of unsold books are uncovered and released into circulation. People get that those works will become rare collectibles overtime because of scarcity, hence it'll be priced accordingly. If they refuse to print it anymore, then let it be public domain.

Ethel mermania wrote:But what no one but me has talked about, is their role in teaching reading and developing curriculum guides for early childhood education of course featuring the books of Dr. Seuss. They take this role very seriously.


Its all or nothing for me. If they see it fit to not make their entire library of books available, then I see it fit to boycott all works by the author that could conceivably send any profits to them.

You have that right. However if my school board dropped dr Seuss out of the curriculum, for similar reasons, I would be all up their ass on it.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:45 pm

Saiwania wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Anyway; what's done was done and it's not like they will be forced to print them again. Once the vultures loose interest and the prices drop to normal levels again; I might pick up one or two of them.


The books aren't going to drop to normal levels again, unless some warehouses full of unsold books are uncovered and released into circulation. People get that those works will become rare collectibles overtime because of scarcity, hence it'll be priced accordingly. If they refuse to print it anymore, then let it be public domain.

Ethel mermania wrote:But what no one but me has talked about, is their role in teaching reading and developing curriculum guides for early childhood education of course featuring the books of Dr. Seuss. They take this role very seriously.


Its all or nothing for me. If they see it fit to not make their entire library of books available, then I see it fit to boycott their entire library.

You’re not the target demographic for these books. I can assure you that they don’t care that a grown man isn’t reading One Fish, Two Fish.

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