The Chinese Communist Party is right or wrong?

[Kubra]

I never said it did.


I mentioned what I meant earlier:

And why is that wrong? Just being hypocritical doesn't make it wrong. Every regime uses doublethink in its political sloganeering. The regime is accomplishing what it has set out to do. How can that be characterized as wrong without some moral framework by which to judge decisions?

Sure, hypocrisy doesn't make policy wrong, but it does make wrong policy all that more difficult to stomach. Think of it this way: it is a terrible thing to be mugged, but if the guy goes on a tangent about the dialectical necessity of my being mugged I'm throwing fists, idgaf if I get stabbed.

[Punished UMN]

And why is that wrong? Just being hypocritical doesn't make it wrong.

Wrong in terms of being false.

So because their propaganda slogans are false, that means that their actual policies are wrong? That's just not really a meaningful criticism.

[Nilokeras]

I mentioned what I meant earlier:

It isn't just wrong, it is wrong in the worst way possible, i.e. being deeply hypocritical with its "Socialism with Chinese Capitalist Characteristics." It's doublethink incarnate.

The assumption inherent to this is that the CCP internally does not believe in it's own ideological program, which 'true' or not does have lengthy justifications for the decisions it makes. We don't know that for certain.

[The New California Republic]

Wrong in terms of being false.

So because their propaganda slogans are false, that means that their actual policies are wrong? That's just not really a meaningful criticism.

No it goes deeper than that. Note I've said nothing about their policies in and of themselves being wrong, you introduced that element, I never did. The raison d'etre of the Party is pretty much the polar opposite to what they currently are, I'm focusing on the hypocrisy of the Party itself.

[Punished UMN]

So because their propaganda slogans are false, that means that their actual policies are wrong? That's just not really a meaningful criticism.

No it goes deeper than that. Note I've said nothing about their policies in and of themselves being wrong, you introduced that element, I never did. The raison d'etre of the Party is pretty much the polar opposite to what they currently are, I'm focusing on the hypocrisy of the Party itself.

Political parties change in purpose throughout their history. Secondly, as Nilokeras said, that does assume that they don't actually believe in Dengist ideology.

[Nilokeras]

So because their propaganda slogans are false, that means that their actual policies are wrong? That's just not really a meaningful criticism.

No it goes deeper than that. Note I've said nothing about their policies in and of themselves being wrong, you introduced that element, I never did. The raison d'etre of the Party is pretty much the polar opposite to what they currently are, I'm focusing on the hypocrisy of the Party itself.

Part of the issue here is that you're conflating 'hypocrisy' with 'doublethink'. Hypocrisy is professing a particular moral or political or ethical standard while failing to actually match that standard. Doublethink is holding two simultaneously contradictory positions with full honesty. One implies knowing failure to actually hold to a particular standard (ie the CCP saying they're Marxists while actually privately not believing in Marxism or knowingly deviating from Marxist principles for other reasons), while the other is unknowing holding of two contradictory positions (ie believing in Marxism while also believing in the necessity of capitalism for whatever ideological purpose).

[The New California Republic]

No it goes deeper than that. Note I've said nothing about their policies in and of themselves being wrong, you introduced that element, I never did. The raison d'etre of the Party is pretty much the polar opposite to what they currently are, I'm focusing on the hypocrisy of the Party itself.

Part of the issue here is that you're conflating 'hypocrisy' with 'doublethink'. Hypocrisy is professing a particular moral or political or ethical standard while failing to actually match that standard. Doublethink is holding two simultaneously contradictory positions with full honesty. One implies knowing failure to actually hold to a particular standard (ie the CCP saying they're Marxists while actually privately not believing in Marxism or knowingly deviating from Marxist principles for other reasons), while the other is unknowing holding of two contradictory positions (ie believing in Marxism while also believing in the necessity of capitalism for whatever ideological purpose).

Yes I know they are different, I was being quite loose with them in the original statement because I can't know for sure whether it's hypocrisy or doublethink since it's impossible to know precisely what the Party members are thinking, but no matter if it is one or the other then there is still an untruthfulness to it.

[Nilokeras]

Part of the issue here is that you're conflating 'hypocrisy' with 'doublethink'. Hypocrisy is professing a particular moral or political or ethical standard while failing to actually match that standard. Doublethink is holding two simultaneously contradictory positions with full honesty. One implies knowing failure to actually hold to a particular standard (ie the CCP saying they're Marxists while actually privately not believing in Marxism or knowingly deviating from Marxist principles for other reasons), while the other is unknowing holding of two contradictory positions (ie believing in Marxism while also believing in the necessity of capitalism for whatever ideological purpose).

Yes I know they are different, I was being quite loose with them in the original statement because I can't know for sure whether it's hypocrisy or doublethink since it's impossible to know precisely what the Party members are thinking, but no matter if it is one or the other then there is still an untruthfulness to it.

'Untruthfulness' is also a 'quite loose' phrasing. You have two options here: either you think they are deviating from Marxist principles as part of their program, in which case they are merely incorrect, or you think they're a group of opportunists who are using the cover of Marxist ideology to drag China towards capitalism, in which case they are hypocrite opportunists. Or some mixture of the two. The 'truths' you think they are being unfaithful to (Marxist ideology or your own personal morality) are very different in each case.

[The Nihilistic view]

Neither because morality isn't objective.

The zenith of people philosophizing about morality on NSG is usually them asserting something akin this line.

Enjoy your stay in the pit of moral nihilism.

There is no pit or hill only what is.

[Bear Stearns]

The CCP is pretty demented but it's hard to care anymore given that the US unofficially copies a lot of their worst aspects.

[Punished UMN]

The zenith of people philosophizing about morality on NSG is usually them asserting something akin this line.

Enjoy your stay in the pit of moral nihilism.

There is no pit or hill only what is.

The issue of course is that with moral nihilism, there is no longer any meaningful criticism you can make of things, so why should anyone give a shit about nihilism? Things are the way they are. So fucking what?

[Nilokeras]

The zenith of people philosophizing about morality on NSG is usually them asserting something akin this line.

Enjoy your stay in the pit of moral nihilism.

There is no pit or hill only what is.

If you don't have anything more to add than the philosophic stylings of a moody teenager I'm sure you can find elsewhere to post instead. The adults are trying to have a conversation.

[The Nihilistic view]

There is no pit or hill only what is.

The issue of course is that with moral nihilism, there is no longer any meaningful criticism you can make of things, so why should anyone give a shit about nihilism? Things are the way they are. So fucking what?

I don't think the universe cares either way.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

The title "Chinese Communist Party" is as honest as "the People's republic of China."

[The Nihilistic view]

There is no pit or hill only what is.

If you don't have anything more to add than the philosophic stylings of a moody teenager I'm sure you can find elsewhere to post instead. The adults are trying to have a conversation.

Adulthood is a human construct, there is no solice to find in such subjective labelling.

[Nilokeras]

If you don't have anything more to add than the philosophic stylings of a moody teenager I'm sure you can find elsewhere to post instead. The adults are trying to have a conversation.

Adulthood is a human construct, there is no solice to find in such subjective labelling.

Powerful slamming your bedroom door energy.

[The Nihilistic view]

Adulthood is a human construct, there is no solice to find in such subjective labelling.

Powerful slamming your bedroom door energy.

There are no doors in the mind, only windows to the soul.

[Punished UMN]

The issue of course is that with moral nihilism, there is no longer any meaningful criticism you can make of things, so why should anyone give a shit about nihilism? Things are the way they are. So fucking what?

I don't think the universe cares either way.

Who cares what the universe thinks? Even if it doesn't, that doesn't change anything. So what if "the universe" doesn't have something to say, that just makes the universe irrelevant, not us or our actions.

[The West Siberian Provisional Authority]

This is not a flaming or trolling attempt, just a thought experiment. The American democratic and republican parties are often discussed here, so im bringing up the theme of the Chinese Communist Party that is larger and more powerful than both.

Many of you dislike the Chinese Communist Party, but do you think that everything they do is always wrong?

Because they do have results to show, namely how poverty has decreased immensely in China, and how they are one of the few political parties in the world with a strategic worldview (the belt and road initiative for example).

The social credit system sounds draconian, but how many of you drive by a broken neighbourhood and think "the government should really do something about this"...well, they are doing something about it.

I also admit that some of their internal security mesures seem...a bit excessive.

But I leave the question anyway, how right or wrong do you believe the CCP is?

They're as you mentioned implementing a social credit system which in practice will violate basic human rights, the internal security measures are absolutely without a doubt, draconian and Orwellian.

They're actively using slave labour and committing genocide, and are still at this very moment likely planning to invade Taiwan, a free and independent country. They're so abysmally wrong, why India, Japan, Taiwan, the EU, and US haven't already cut all ties and put them in virtual economic isolation is beyond me. They're hated by virtually all their neighbours, and even Russia is having second thoughts as to allying with them on the world stage for their attempt to claim Vladivostok as Chinese territory.

Nevermind the fact their stockholm syndrome puppet in North Korea is even snapping back at them. They're a mess which the international community absolutely should deal with sooner rather than later.

[The Nihilistic view]

I don't think the universe cares either way.

Who cares what the universe thinks? Even if it doesn't, that doesn't change anything. So what if "the universe" doesn't have something to say, that just makes the universe irrelevant, not us or our actions.

You seem to care a great deal that your being should mean something more that what is purely relative to you.

I am sure the communist party of China feels the same as you.

[Punished UMN]

Who cares what the universe thinks? Even if it doesn't, that doesn't change anything. So what if "the universe" doesn't have something to say, that just makes the universe irrelevant, not us or our actions.

You seem to care a great deal that your being should mean something more that what is purely relative to you.

I am sure the communist party of China feels the same as you.

Yes, they do. Even in the absence of the universe caring, we can still forge a false meaning into reality.

[The Nihilistic view]

You seem to care a great deal that your being should mean something more that what is purely relative to you.

I am sure the communist party of China feels the same as you.

Yes, they do. Even in the absence of the universe caring, we can still forge a false meaning into reality.

Meaning is in the eye of the beholder.

[Punished UMN]

Yes, they do. Even in the absence of the universe caring, we can still forge a false meaning into reality.

Meaning is in the eye of the beholder.

Uh, yeah. That's why nihilism is functionally irrelevant.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

The CCP is pretty demented but it's hard to care anymore given that the US unofficially copies a lot of their worst aspects.

More like the opposite actually. The CCP borrows a lot of the worst aspects of racist, 19th-century, Jim Crow America, and these backward "morals" and behaviors are systematically imparted and ingrained into the minds of millions of ordinary Chinese from a very early age via the Communist "education" system. As a result, Chinese society remains tethered in outdated, 19th-century Victorian-era social mores and attitudes. Racism, genocide, hunting for sport, imperialism, colonial subjugation, environmental degradation, and other utterly despicable pastimes that were once practiced in the West a century ago are considered socially acceptable in China today.

The justification for China's increasing arrogance and belligerence goes along the lines of: Westerners/white people are racist and have committed genocide, enslaved entire populations, and waged wars of conquest and subjugation, so why can't we do the same?

Communism, incidentally, is an out-of-date "Western" ideology. Put into practice, communism and fascism are indistinguishable. China is both a communist and a fascist state. Communism is responsible for this utter degradation of Chinese morals and traditions into something completely unrecognizable. Russia, likewise, has suffered a seemingly irreversible degradation of morals and political freedom 30 years after the supposed demise of communism. Liberal, 21st century Western values have also largely failed to have much of an impact in these communist or post-communist states compared to post-fascist states such as Germany and Japan where local customs and traditions have also remained intact (although I'm guessing this is more true of West Germany than East Germany where more typically Eastern European attitudes not in line with liberal, Western ideals tend to prevail). Decades of communist rule have ensured this.

Communist regimes are a moral black hole from which nothing ever escapes. China is one of the most notorious victims and prime examples of moral decline. Even after a communist regime has collapsed, people are so used to being told what to do that they forget how to properly run a country and mess things up badly, leading to calls for stronger leadership and the rise of authoritarianism in places like Poland and Hungary, and outright fascism in Russia. These are broken societies and communism is to blame.

Everyday I am bombarded with ads from Chinese gaming companies that encourage shallow, selfish behaviors and thinking. Money, greed, and power are the prevailing social norms in Communist China today. Horror stories centered on public apathy and indifference toward the plight of others abound. Fake food. Fake vaccines. Fake milk powder. Fake everything. The biggest victims of this vicious circle of immorality and naked self-interest are the Chinese people themselves. The number one thought on everyone's minds is: What's in it for me? How can I benefit from this? Who gives a fuck about those uppity Uighurs?

Just recently, someone whom I assume is a Chinese wumao openly advocated genocide and considers all religious people a threat to be eliminated. Another Chinese non-wumao has expressed a desire to see a mosque next to his home torn down for similar reasons. This is yet further evidence of the CCP's moral depravity being consciously or unconsciously internalized by Chinese citizens. Everybody wants their child to be a little emperor and it's every man for himself. Capitalism as a means to a socialist end is far worse than actual capitalism itself. I would even suggest that fascist methods and attitudes as a means to a socialist end are far worse than fascism for fascism's sake and far more damaging in the long run. The CCP is utterly devoid of any semblance of moral decency and thus, utterly wrong on every level. The CCP has no right to exist.

This is not to say that all Mainland Chinese are utterly and inherently incapable of moral behavior, compassion, empathy, and basic human decency. Rather, the sociopathy and unspeakable acts of evil that define the CCP and the PRC are the inevitable by-products of communism, which inevitably merges into fascism at the level of the state.

[Nilokeras]

As a result, ... society remains tethered in outdated, 19th-century Victorian-era social mores and attitudes. Racism, genocide, hunting for sport, imperialism, colonial subjugation, environmental degradation, and other utterly despicable pastimes that were once practiced ... a century ago are considered socially acceptable ... today.

Everyday I am bombarded with ads from ... gaming companies that encourage shallow, selfish behaviors and thinking. Money, greed, and power are the prevailing social norms ... today. Horror stories centered on public apathy and indifference toward the plight of others abound. Fake food. Fake vaccines. Fake milk powder. Fake everything. The biggest victims of this vicious circle of immorality and naked self-interest are the ... people themselves. The number one thought on everyone's minds is: What's in it for me? How can I benefit from this? Who gives a fuck about those uppity Uighurs?

But enough about America, amirite

Poland and Hungary, and outright fascism in Russia.

Ah yes, Poland, Hungary and Russia - all places with centuries long traditions of peaceful democratic and liberal political institutions that were destroyed by communism