Gender Abolitionism and Postgenderism

[Zohiania]

Can we abolish race as a concept?

Yes, however Critical Race Theorists would disagree with you and me on that

[Auzkhia]

. I'm not just a person, I'm a woman - more importantly, I'm a trans woman. I don't see myself ever identifying otherwise.

I thought the goal of transgender was to be the opposite gender than the one at birth. Doesn’t identifying as a trans woman as well as/instead of a cis woman undermine that?

No, trans women and cis women are both women, just different types of women. The cis and trans distinction refers to assigned gender at birth. Trans women are women who were assigned male, cis women are women that were assigned female at birth. Like wise with cis men and trans men. Cisgender means your gender is the one assigned at birth, so when you were born and doctor said it's a boy/girl, that was right for you.

Can we abolish race as a concept?

Based. Let's do it.

Ha nice, though like her, I'm probably a lesbian now, it's complicated, I just say queer. All I know is that girls and enbies are hot, don't really find men that attractive, except maybe if they're really fem or some fictional ones.

I believe the term you're looking for is "gynephile" then.

That is, sexual attraction to femininity. Like me.

I mean, lesbian can be applied to me since I like girls as a girl. Though, I don't wanna worry too much about labels.

The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.

I'm still a woman even if I wear a suit, or have traits that are considered to be masculine or male.

[SD_Film Artists]

The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.

This is the paradox in identity politics; trying so hard to remove gender stereotypes while at the same time using the same stereotypes to make gender separate from sex.

[Disgraces]

The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.

Whether you agree with the idea that gender should be fluid or not, it's still useful to understand that the biological parts you have is not an identical concept to the rules and expectations society applies to people who have those parts. That's really all that separating the ideas of "sex" and "gender" is.

Yes, they needlessly separated these words, because the words "femininity" and "masculinity" already existed.

[Arcturus Novus]

. I'm not just a person, I'm a woman - more importantly, I'm a trans woman. I don't see myself ever identifying otherwise.

I thought the goal of transgender was to be the opposite gender than the one at birth. Doesn’t identifying as a trans woman as well as/instead of a woman undermine that?

I mean like, at the end of the day yeah, I’m a woman. But I’m more than that, too. My transness has a great, direct impact on the way I interact with the world and with my gender. I wouldn’t be myselfif I wasn’t a trans woman. I don’t think proudly proclaiming myself as such undermines anything. Honestly I’d argue that ignoring my past and my journey towards becoming Me™️ would do a greater job of undermining who I am.

(And it gets even more complex when we weave my sexuality into the mix - I've often half-joked that I’m trans first, a lesbian second and a woman third.)

So to answer your question:

[Disgraces]

The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.

I'm still a woman even if I wear a suit, or have traits that are considered to be masculine or male.

That's exactly what I said.

[Disgraces]

The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.

This is the paradox in identity politics; trying so hard to remove gender stereotypes while at the same time using the same stereotypes to make gender separate from sex.

Very true

[SD_Film Artists]

I thought the goal of transgender was to be the opposite gender than the one at birth. Doesn’t identifying as a trans woman as well as/instead of a cis woman undermine that?

No, trans women and cis women are both women, just different types of women. The cis and trans distinction refers to assigned gender at birth. Trans women are women who were assigned male, cis women are women that were assigned female at birth. Like wise with cis men and trans men. Cisgender means your gender is the one assigned at birth, so when you were born and doctor said it's a boy/girl, that was right for you.

Doctors clarify the sex, not the gender. That is, if we're using the modern meaning of gender (the old one being that they're interchangeable)

[Auzkhia]

I'm still a woman even if I wear a suit, or have traits that are considered to be masculine or male.

That's exactly what I said.

Yeah, sex and gender aren't separate but that doesn't mean they cannot change or necessarily influence each other.

No, trans women and cis women are both women, just different types of women. The cis and trans distinction refers to assigned gender at birth. Trans women are women who were assigned male, cis women are women that were assigned female at birth. Like wise with cis men and trans men. Cisgender means your gender is the one assigned at birth, so when you were born and doctor said it's a boy/girl, that was right for you.

Doctors clarify the sex, not the gender. That is, if we're using the modern meaning of gender (the old one being that they're interchangeable)

On birth certificates, it's more or less the same. If you assign some one male at birth, you're operating on the assumption that the child is a boy and will be a man, and if that is true then they are cisgender. But, that is not always the case. I.E Women and non-binary people who were assigned male at birth, and men and non-binary people who were assigned female at birth. Their assigned sex as you insist on calling it does not accurately determine gender, but also, it does not matter how realizes their gender. They just are and we should just accept that.

[Disgraces]

That's exactly what I said.

Yeah, sex and gender aren't separate but that doesn't mean they cannot change or necessarily influence each other.

I don't understand.

[North Rosmana]

I can not speak for others but I do not have a single trait I would consider to be feminine to be honest, so I can not follow this logic.

[Nilokeras]

No, trans women and cis women are both women, just different types of women. The cis and trans distinction refers to assigned gender at birth. Trans women are women who were assigned male, cis women are women that were assigned female at birth. Like wise with cis men and trans men. Cisgender means your gender is the one assigned at birth, so when you were born and doctor said it's a boy/girl, that was right for you.

Doctors clarify the sex, not the gender. That is, if we're using the modern meaning of gender (the old one being that they're interchangeable)

If I take a biopsy of your arm and the cells in it are a mixture of XY and XX what is your biological sex?

More importantly, how does a 30 second visual inspection as a baby qualify as an accurate determination of 'sex'?

[Auzkhia]

Yeah, sex and gender aren't separate but that doesn't mean they cannot change or necessarily influence each other.

I don't understand.

If sex and gender are the same, and if gender can change, so can sex, and sex, shorthand for biological sex, can be changed and altered.

Hormonal sex? Absolutely. In fact it's biggest reason why trans women are female and trans men are male.

But other traits? Well, some can also change, some cannot, but like, some cis people have atypical karyotypes.

[Disgraces]

I don't understand.

If sex and gender are the same, and if gender can change, so can sex, and sex, shorthand for biological sex, can be changed and altered.

Hormonal sex? Absolutely. In fact it's biggest reason why trans women are female and trans men are male.

But other traits? Well, some can also change, some cannot, but like, some cis people have atypical karyotypes.

I disagree with the hormonal sex thing, because it isn't natural, like, that isn't how your body would've produced them.

[Arcturus Novus]

If sex and gender are the same, and if gender can change, so can sex, and sex, shorthand for biological sex, can be changed and altered.

Hormonal sex? Absolutely. In fact it's biggest reason why trans women are female and trans men are male.

But other traits? Well, some can also change, some cannot, but like, some cis people have atypical karyotypes.

I disagree with the hormonal sex thing, because it isn't natural, like, that isn't how your body would've produced them.

Do you disagree with diabetic people taking insulin because it isn't how their body would've naturally produced that chemical?

[Disgraces]

I disagree with the hormonal sex thing, because it isn't natural, like, that isn't how your body would've produced them.

Do you disagree with diabetic people taking insulin because it isn't how their body would've naturally produced that chemical?

No

[Arcturus Novus]

Do you disagree with diabetic people taking insulin because it isn't how their body would've naturally produced that chemical?

No

Do you see no logical dissonance in this? HRT is a medical treatment just like any other.

[Disgraces]

No

Do you see no logical dissonance in this? HRT is a medical treatment just like any other.

I don't

[Cameroi]

gender has no place outside of sex and childbirth. and humans are too fertile for their planet's own good as it is.

so i'm 100% in favor of freedom of gender. including the right to be socially non-gendered.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Can we abolish race as a concept?

Why does it still even exist anyway?

Cause the idea of genetic clusters and clinal variation is too complicated for some people to understand so they create weird rigid umbrella groups instead.

Even worse, the umbrella groups keep changing between time and place so you don't totally know sometimes which one you're in.

[The Reformed American Republic]

[Redacted]

[Suriyanakhon]

The words gender and sex were separated by a crazy scientist. A womanly man is still a man. A manly woman is still a woman.

This is the paradox in identity politics; trying so hard to remove gender stereotypes while at the same time using the same stereotypes to make gender separate from sex.

Most trans people don't think that conforming to stereotypes makes them their gender, but they see what happens when they don't conform to femininity/masculinity (mockery, ironically from the gender critical types) so, we're not sorry for trying to be taken seriously and not get made fun of. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[SD_Film Artists]

Doctors clarify the sex, not the gender. That is, if we're using the modern meaning of gender (the old one being that they're interchangeable)

If I take a biopsy of your arm and the cells in it are a mixture of XY and XX what is your biological sex?

They'd have 'Variations in Sex Characteristics'.

More importantly, how does a 30 second visual inspection as a baby qualify as an accurate determination of 'sex'?

As it's the sex rather than the gender.

---

This is the paradox in identity politics; trying so hard to remove gender stereotypes while at the same time using the same stereotypes to make gender separate from sex.

Most trans people don't think that conforming to stereotypes makes them their gender, but they see what happens when they don't conform to femininity/masculinity (mockery, ironically from the gender critical types) so, we're not sorry for trying to be taken seriously and not get made fun of. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But there is a gender, a gender with properties. What are these properties if not stereotypes? Some trans people here have mentioned a 'feeling' of being their gender which isn't necessarily attached to a social stereotype, which I accept as they know their mind better than I possibly can, but what is this when not attached to sex?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Gender norms ruin society fr. I hate how we encourage women to depend on men and need "protection" when they're capable of living their own life and defending themselves. People often say "your opinion will change when you have a daughter" but I 100% guarantee you it won't. I'm not about to treat a grown woman like a defenseless child or even worse like property.

[Nilokeras]

They'd have 'Variations in Sex Characteristics'.

So biological sex is not a binary.

As it's the sex rather than the gender.

Which, as you conceded above, can't fully be determined through a visual inspection.