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USAF realises F-35 is not what they set out to make

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:59 am

Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I recall a specific incident. They were testing the Bradley against RPGs. The test initially went well, but one of the officers attending the test cried foul, that the RPGs were intentionally being fired at too short a distance, i.e. they did not reach their maximum velocity in terms of what would usually be encountered on the battlefield. The test was rerun on the insistence of the officer, firing the RPG from further away. The result was catastrophic for the Bradley: the Bradley was annihilated, all of the hatches were blown out, and the test dummies inside were blown out too.

It is fun that the movie references that specific incident that happened, albeit in a far more outlandish way.

just saw this.

was this the old version before they unfucked it

If the Bradley was to be RPG-7 proof from the front with tech from 1980 it would've been 50 tons.

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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:00 am

Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I recall a specific incident. They were testing the Bradley against RPGs. The test initially went well, but one of the officers attending the test cried foul, that the RPGs were intentionally being fired at too short a distance, i.e. they did not reach their maximum velocity in terms of what would usually be encountered on the battlefield. The test was rerun on the insistence of the officer, firing the RPG from further away. The result was catastrophic for the Bradley: the Bradley was annihilated, all of the hatches were blown out, and the test dummies inside were blown out too.

It is fun that the movie references that specific incident that happened, albeit in a far more outlandish way.

just saw this.

was this the old version before they unfucked it

Yes I was referring to it in its initial testing.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:00 am

Kubra wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:I find hard to believe that a country would develop something bad and terribly expensive on purpose.
Time for a classic movie scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

wasn't burton kind of insane
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My canon is currently in a state of constant flux. Please do not take anything that I say as set in stone.
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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:01 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:just saw this.

was this the old version before they unfucked it

Yes I was referring to it in its initial testing.

Ahh, aight.
"Furthermore, I submit that Carthage NSG must be destroyed."
-Marcus Porcius Cato
My canon is currently in a state of constant flux. Please do not take anything that I say as set in stone.
A 13 civilization, according to this index.
A traumatized MT-PMT constitutional monarchy consisting of a personal union of Prussia and Poland. A land of rampant gun ownership, Cold-war equipment, rabid hatred of Germans, militias with enough artillery to turn an armored division into a badly-shaken battalion of light infantry, and terrified American troops counting down the days until they rotate back home.

Artsahk is Armenian.



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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:02 am

Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:
Kubra wrote: Time for a classic movie scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

wasn't burton kind of insane

The idea of requiring the Bradley to be RPG-7 proof without putting slabs of ERA on it is insane yes. You'll end up with a proto-Namer (60 tons).
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Lauzanne
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Postby Lauzanne » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:03 am

Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:
Kubra wrote: Time for a classic movie scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

wasn't burton kind of insane


Yes he was, him and his circus known as the Reformers.

Kinda funny that when the F-15 first came out, everyone called it overpriced junk and wanted to stick with F-5's over the Eagle.

I smile when i think of how hard they must seethe at that 102-0
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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:05 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:wasn't burton kind of insane

The idea of requiring the Bradley to be RPG-7 proof without putting slabs of ERA on it is insane yes. You'll end up with a proto-Namer (60 tons).

"armored vehicle meant only to stand up to bullets destroyed by anti-tank weapon"
"Furthermore, I submit that Carthage NSG must be destroyed."
-Marcus Porcius Cato
My canon is currently in a state of constant flux. Please do not take anything that I say as set in stone.
A 13 civilization, according to this index.
A traumatized MT-PMT constitutional monarchy consisting of a personal union of Prussia and Poland. A land of rampant gun ownership, Cold-war equipment, rabid hatred of Germans, militias with enough artillery to turn an armored division into a badly-shaken battalion of light infantry, and terrified American troops counting down the days until they rotate back home.

Artsahk is Armenian.



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Lauzanne
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Postby Lauzanne » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:07 am

Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:The idea of requiring the Bradley to be RPG-7 proof without putting slabs of ERA on it is insane yes. You'll end up with a proto-Namer (60 tons).

"armored vehicle meant only to stand up to bullets destroyed by anti-tank weapon"


"What do you mean the anti tank weapon can destroy the thing with less protection than tank? GO BACK TO LESS ARMOURED M113 AND SLAP WINGS ON IT*" -Burton probably

*Unironic concept by them. Look up "M113 Aerogavin"
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Mousters
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Postby Mousters » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:08 am

this went from F-35s to A-10s-ish to Bradley fighting vehicles lol

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Lauzanne
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Postby Lauzanne » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:12 am

Mousters wrote:this went from F-35s to A-10s-ish to Bradley fighting vehicles lol


It's always the same tired arguments. "New thing bad because it's expensive, go back to cheap old thing."

People opposed the F-15 when it first came out for the same reasons, people opposed the bradley for stupid reasons, and people like to think they dunked on the F-35 because it's expensive without understanding why.

A handful of countries in the entire world can actually make modern combat aircraft, and to answer this thread's title: they made a plane that is more advanced and more capable than it's felonious competition, because if they make something that's cheap it's going to end up scattered across the countryside.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:13 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:wasn't burton kind of insane

The idea of requiring the Bradley to be RPG-7 proof without putting slabs of ERA on it is insane yes. You'll end up with a proto-Namer (60 tons).
It's funny because in testing for a new APC the israeli's *did* slap a bunch of ERA on the front and junked the turret, before binning the thing and settling on converting tank hulls for the job. It was a proto-namer in the *literal* sense.
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Mousters
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Postby Mousters » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:13 am

yup

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:15 am

Kubra wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:The idea of requiring the Bradley to be RPG-7 proof without putting slabs of ERA on it is insane yes. You'll end up with a proto-Namer (60 tons).
It's funny because in testing for a new APC the israeli's *did* slap a bunch of ERA on the front and junked the turret, before binning the thing and settling on converting tank hulls for the job. It was a proto-namer in the *literal* sense.

Tbh IDF faced a lot of close range actions from insurgents and Syrians and there wasn't much long range combat in Lebanon for example in the 80's. So the Bradley with its turret and the long range TOW missile system was literally unsuited for Israeli needs. What they needed was a heavily protected vehicle capable of resisting close range attacks from multiple angles and they got it in the Namer.
Meanwhile in the flat deserts east of Kuwait.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby The Federal Government of Iowa » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:17 am

Lauzanne wrote:
Mousters wrote:this went from F-35s to A-10s-ish to Bradley fighting vehicles lol


It's always the same tired arguments. "New thing bad because it's expensive, go back to cheap old thing."

People opposed the F-15 when it first came out for the same reasons, people opposed the bradley for stupid reasons, and people like to think they dunked on the F-35 because it's expensive without understanding why.

A handful of countries in the entire world can actually make modern combat aircraft, and to answer this thread's title: they made a plane that is more advanced and more capable than it's felonious competition, because if they make something that's cheap it's going to end up scattered across the countryside.

Hm, fair point. I do still think the F-35 is trying to accomplish too much at the same time. We should have more dedicated ground pound craft, air superiority craft, and other specialized craft for whatever niche they need it for.
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:17 am

The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:Hm, fair point. I do still think the F-35 is trying to accomplish too much at the same time. We should have more dedicated ground pound craft, air superiority craft, and other specialized craft for whatever niche they need it for.

What is close air support?

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Polish Prussian Commonwealth
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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:17 am

Kubra wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:The idea of requiring the Bradley to be RPG-7 proof without putting slabs of ERA on it is insane yes. You'll end up with a proto-Namer (60 tons).
It's funny because in testing for a new APC the israeli's *did* slap a bunch of ERA on the front and junked the turret, before binning the thing and settling on converting tank hulls for the job. It was a proto-namer in the *literal* sense.

because the circumstances the israelis face are identical to what the OG bradley was designed to face obviously
"Furthermore, I submit that Carthage NSG must be destroyed."
-Marcus Porcius Cato
My canon is currently in a state of constant flux. Please do not take anything that I say as set in stone.
A 13 civilization, according to this index.
A traumatized MT-PMT constitutional monarchy consisting of a personal union of Prussia and Poland. A land of rampant gun ownership, Cold-war equipment, rabid hatred of Germans, militias with enough artillery to turn an armored division into a badly-shaken battalion of light infantry, and terrified American troops counting down the days until they rotate back home.

Artsahk is Armenian.



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Postby The Federal Government of Iowa » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:18 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:Hm, fair point. I do still think the F-35 is trying to accomplish too much at the same time. We should have more dedicated ground pound craft, air superiority craft, and other specialized craft for whatever niche they need it for.

What is close air support?

ground pound is my stupid term for close air support :P
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:19 am

Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:
Kubra wrote: It's funny because in testing for a new APC the israeli's *did* slap a bunch of ERA on the front and junked the turret, before binning the thing and settling on converting tank hulls for the job. It was a proto-namer in the *literal* sense.

because the circumstances the israelis face are identical to what the OG bradley was designed to face obviously

That turret and TOW missile system sure didn't do badly in the flat deserts east of Kuwait did it?
The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:What is close air support?

ground pound is my stupid term for close air support :P

No, what is close air support? Define the term as you understand it.

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Mousters
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Postby Mousters » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:20 am

The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:
Lauzanne wrote:
It's always the same tired arguments. "New thing bad because it's expensive, go back to cheap old thing."

People opposed the F-15 when it first came out for the same reasons, people opposed the bradley for stupid reasons, and people like to think they dunked on the F-35 because it's expensive without understanding why.

A handful of countries in the entire world can actually make modern combat aircraft, and to answer this thread's title: they made a plane that is more advanced and more capable than it's felonious competition, because if they make something that's cheap it's going to end up scattered across the countryside.

Hm, fair point. I do still think the F-35 is trying to accomplish too much at the same time. We should have more dedicated ground pound craft, air superiority craft, and other specialized craft for whatever niche they need it for.

exactly! It's tough to fit all those capabilities into one aircraft. Problems are destined to pop up

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Polish Prussian Commonwealth
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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:20 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:because the circumstances the israelis face are identical to what the OG bradley was designed to face obviously

That turret and TOW missile system sure didn't do badly in the flat deserts east of Kuwait did it?

also isn't that funny pentagon wars clip just wrong

the bradley was meant from the start as an IFV, was it not? As a response to the BMP-1?
Last edited by Polish Prussian Commonwealth on Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Furthermore, I submit that Carthage NSG must be destroyed."
-Marcus Porcius Cato
My canon is currently in a state of constant flux. Please do not take anything that I say as set in stone.
A 13 civilization, according to this index.
A traumatized MT-PMT constitutional monarchy consisting of a personal union of Prussia and Poland. A land of rampant gun ownership, Cold-war equipment, rabid hatred of Germans, militias with enough artillery to turn an armored division into a badly-shaken battalion of light infantry, and terrified American troops counting down the days until they rotate back home.

Artsahk is Armenian.



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The Federal Government of Iowa
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Postby The Federal Government of Iowa » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:21 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Polish Prussian Commonwealth wrote:because the circumstances the israelis face are identical to what the OG bradley was designed to face obviously

That turret and TOW missile system sure didn't do badly in the flat deserts east of Kuwait did it?
The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:ground pound is my stupid term for close air support :P

No, what is close air support? Define the term as you understand it.

Ah. Close air support is hanging around an area (or being ready to go at any moment) so that when infantry units call you in to help bomb/shoot up an enemy position or target you are ready to do so.
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Lauzanne
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Postby Lauzanne » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 am

The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:
Lauzanne wrote:
It's always the same tired arguments. "New thing bad because it's expensive, go back to cheap old thing."

People opposed the F-15 when it first came out for the same reasons, people opposed the bradley for stupid reasons, and people like to think they dunked on the F-35 because it's expensive without understanding why.

A handful of countries in the entire world can actually make modern combat aircraft, and to answer this thread's title: they made a plane that is more advanced and more capable than it's felonious competition, because if they make something that's cheap it's going to end up scattered across the countryside.

Hm, fair point. I do still think the F-35 is trying to accomplish too much at the same time. We should have more dedicated ground pound craft, air superiority craft, and other specialized craft for whatever niche they need it for.


Thing is, PGM's are becoming king for ground pounding, look at the SDB and JDAM, made so its not throwing more at the ground, it throws things far more accurately. Should they have not gone with three different versions? Probably, but hindsight is 20/20. Chances are most of the cost came from the B versions which if memory serves right is the STOVL version, since carrier based versions of regular fighters generally aren't super drastic chances (Rafale M, Su-33) but that STOVL.. hoo boy.

To be honest though thr ASF role can be filled by a multirole just as well, since the computers and sensors have gotten so good, but for a dedicated ground pounder? Mavericks and the like can do pretty well, and if you can have something that carries the same missiles the A-10 can but it's far less suceptible to air defence and it's faster? I'd call that a win.
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The Federal Government of Iowa
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Postby The Federal Government of Iowa » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:23 am

Mousters wrote:
The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:Hm, fair point. I do still think the F-35 is trying to accomplish too much at the same time. We should have more dedicated ground pound craft, air superiority craft, and other specialized craft for whatever niche they need it for.

exactly! It's tough to fit all those capabilities into one aircraft. Problems are destined to pop up

Yeah it's tough, but we'll see how far they can get with it ig, Until they have the tech mastered or at least not as bad as it is now, they should focus on specialized craft.
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Lauzanne
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Postby Lauzanne » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:25 am

Mousters wrote:
The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:Hm, fair point. I do still think the F-35 is trying to accomplish too much at the same time. We should have more dedicated ground pound craft, air superiority craft, and other specialized craft for whatever niche they need it for.

exactly! It's tough to fit all those capabilities into one aircraft. Problems are destined to pop up


Not really. The F-16 is a good multirole that can do bombing, ATGM work, ASF and CAP. Aircraft design has gotten pretty dang good
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Polish Prussian Commonwealth
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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:26 am

Lauzanne wrote:
Mousters wrote: exactly! It's tough to fit all those capabilities into one aircraft. Problems are destined to pop up


Not really. The F-16 is a good multirole that can do bombing, ATGM work, ASF and CAP. Aircraft design has gotten pretty dang good

f-15e gang represent
"Furthermore, I submit that Carthage NSG must be destroyed."
-Marcus Porcius Cato
My canon is currently in a state of constant flux. Please do not take anything that I say as set in stone.
A 13 civilization, according to this index.
A traumatized MT-PMT constitutional monarchy consisting of a personal union of Prussia and Poland. A land of rampant gun ownership, Cold-war equipment, rabid hatred of Germans, militias with enough artillery to turn an armored division into a badly-shaken battalion of light infantry, and terrified American troops counting down the days until they rotate back home.

Artsahk is Armenian.



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