Is Being Pro-Immigration Left Wing?

[Infected Mushroom]

Isn’t it left wing?

Since immigrants foreseeably change/alter the culture and traditions of the country and right-wingers are supposed to be about defending and re-asserting the existing national/cultural identity (or in some way reverting to a glorified past)?

I’d say if you have a country with an overall right wing economic and social ideology but you also support increased immigration, even if you use neoliberal justifications... it takes away from the overall right-wing composition rather than adding to it because it’s saying “I know immigration will do this to an extent but it’s okay in this case for the culture and the national identity to get shifted a bit.”

However, it’s possible that would just be one left wing position amongst countless right wing positions elsewhere.

You can be patriotic and pro-immigration at the same time, take Sweden for example.

But patriotism can’t be the divider between left and right because left-wingers will justify things with patriotism too

For example, Democrats would say they are patriots just as much as Republicans

However, Republicans are more about preserving tradition and the existing national/ cultural identity or reverting to a glorified past

[Wallenburg]

What isn't democratic about free trade? All individuals participating in trade determine what gets traded between which parties and at what rates. The value of traded goods is determined in an equally democratic manner.

K I’m just going to assume you’re joking

Despite what tankie Twitter will tell you, absolute state control of the economy is not democratic.

But patriotism can’t be the divider between left and right because left-wingers will justify things with patriotism too

For example, Democrats would say they are patriots just as much as Republicans

However, Republicans are more about preserving tradition and the existing national/ cultural identity or reverting to a glorified past

And how. I'll tell you something, I have a lot of issues with the US but I'm far, far more patriotic than the terrorists that supported Trump up until the end.

[Nilokeras]

Being anti-immigration is generally a rightist stance. Centrists and center-leftists can sometimes take up anti-immigrant stances in an attempt at triangulation, but that doesn't make it any less of a rightist stance. The mistake is in calling the left's anti-nativist and internationalism 'pro-immigration' because it's not an equivalent articulation. Not all issues can be measured on an axis.

[Forsher]

Not necessarily, it depends on the reasons why - as others have said. Although as a fellow Kiwi I should take the time to remind you that prior to COVID, Labour weren't exactly "anti-immigration" in the way they promised, even with NZ First in the coalition.

In fact, levels of net migration into New Zealand have barely moved in either direction since 2017. So, in this particular example - yes and no.

That's less to do with their rhetoric and more to do with "not following through on their promises" and the general disposition of the government (do nothing, blame NZ First for nothing happened and smile and wave).

It's one of the great questions... what would have happened to the immigration debate in a world where Covid never happened at all or was merely a Chinese Ebola (an epidemic in some foreign place that we don't really care about all that much after all)?

What isn't democratic about free trade? All individuals participating in trade determine what gets traded between which parties and at what rates. The value of traded goods is determined in an equally democratic manner.

K I’m just going to assume you’re joking

The internet was once seen as being democratic for precisely those reasons.

You're probably talking about democracy as in "an organising constitutional principle" whereas they're talking about democracy as something more like "a state in which all participants are able to participate free of restrictions".

I guess your point might be more that "free trade does not preclude market power and any system in which market power exists cannot be described as democratic"... but the conceptual idea of free trade does have its parallels with those of democracy.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

You can be patriotic and pro-immigration at the same time, take Sweden for example.

But patriotism can’t be the divider between left and right because left-wingers will justify things with patriotism too

For example, Democrats would say they are patriots just as much as Republicans

However, Republicans are more about preserving tradition and the existing national/ cultural identity or reverting to a glorified past

The Democratic party isn't left wing. It's centrist.

[Odreria]

K I’m just going to assume you’re joking

Despite what tankie Twitter will tell you, absolute state control of the economy is not democratic.

But absolute control of the economy by capitalists is democratic? The idea that “socialism is when no tariffs” is one of the stupidest takes I’ve ever seen on this website and that’s saying something.

[Postauthoritarian America]

As long as racialist nationalist athoritarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, being pro-immigration will be left wing.

[Odreria]

As long as racialist nationalist athoritarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, being pro-immigration will be left wing.

But when racialist nationalist libertarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, pro immigration becomes right wing obviously.

[Greater Cesnica]

A better metric would be authoritarian v.s libertarian. Both right-libertarians and left-libertarians are generally pro-immigration, whereas right-authoritarians and left-authoritarians generally aren't in my experience.

[Kromi]

But patriotism can’t be the divider between left and right because left-wingers will justify things with patriotism too

For example, Democrats would say they are patriots just as much as Republicans

However, Republicans are more about preserving tradition and the existing national/ cultural identity or reverting to a glorified past

The Democratic party isn't left wing. It's centrist.

Both the Democratic party and the Republican parties have been shifted to the right so much that if they were European parties, the Democrats would be a Conservative party whilst the Republicans would be a Nationalist party.

[Wallenburg]

Despite what tankie Twitter will tell you, absolute state control of the economy is not democratic.

But absolute control of the economy by capitalists is democratic?

Not even close. Try reading my posts before responding to them.

The idea that “socialism is when no tariffs” is one of the stupidest takes I’ve ever seen on this website and that’s saying something.

That's not even close to what I said. What I said was "The free movement of goods and people is a necessary component to a democratic society." A lack of tariffs is a rather small part of a part of a part of what I consider consistent socialist governance.

As long as racialist nationalist athoritarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, being pro-immigration will be left wing.

But when racialist nationalist libertarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, pro immigration becomes right wing obviously.

Now that, that is an extraordinary take. Yeah, "racialist nationalist libertarians". That makes a whole lot of sense.

[Picairn]

But when racialist nationalist libertarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, pro immigration becomes right wing obviously.

Do you take your political news from Jreg?

[Greater Cesnica]

As long as racialist nationalist athoritarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, being pro-immigration will be left wing.

But when racialist nationalist libertarians mobilize their supporters with xenophobia, pro immigration becomes right wing obviously.

Based on this, socialist capitalists exist too, right? As well as racialist anti-racists?

What isn't democratic about free trade? All individuals participating in trade determine what gets traded between which parties and at what rates. The value of traded goods is determined in an equally democratic manner.

K I’m just going to assume you’re joking

So you want a command economy then? Because if so, that's just valuing one hierarchy, one form of oppression and statism over another.

[The Alma Mater]

As people said - it depends on the reasons. Cheap exploitable workforce ? Rightwing. "Ohnoes, all the troubles in the world are our fault and we must welcome everyone" - leftwing. "Everyone who wants to start a new life is welcome" - American. In theory.

In practice however it changes. My favourite example remains the Dutch Socialist Party.

In the 80s they were heavily against the immigration of muslims. Not just because those would be cheap labourers, taking away jobs from Dutch while being exploited by Big Capital (tm) at the same time - but because they explicitly considered Islam to be vile. "A religion for thieves and desert nomads" that would "harm society if their primitive and backwards way of thought was allowed in Dutch society".
Anti-muslim populist Geert Wilders has on several occasions even stated out that his PVV parties programme was strongly influenced by the 80s SP.

Skip forward to 2021 and they are heavily pro-immigration, walk in muslim rights marches etc. A nice 180.

[Saiwania]

I love when people say "such and such group or person is anti immigrant." Anti immigrant is usually code for "hates blacks, Arabs and hispanics." Most "anti immigrant" people aren't against immigration from places like Ireland or Germany or Britain or Norway. They're against certain immigrants of certain backgrounds.

I don't see anything wrong with this if people aren't created equal and hence, neither are different nations by extension. People will judge according to each their own criterias and this should be embraced in my view.

[New haven america]

Considering the fact that most of Europe is hard left and they have the same draconian immigration policies as America, Canada, Japan, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand?

Yeah, imma say no.

Now if it's for the sake of human rights? Sure. If it's just being pro/anti immigration because... Eh, it's a mixed bag at best.

[Nilokeras]

Considering the fact that most of Europe is hard left

[The Alma Mater]

Considering the fact that most of Europe is hard left

Western Europe is "hard left" from an American perspective. Things like universal healthcare are not even an issue for instance. Parties like labour and socialists exist and actually have a shot to have influence.

Of course, it is far more accurate to state that the USA has a heavily rightshifted Overton window.

[New haven america]

Western Europe is "hard left" from an American perspective. Things like universal healthcare are not even an issue for instance.
Of course, it is far more accurate to state that the USA has a heavily rightshifted Overton window.

To a lot of less open minded folks the only thing on the "Hard Left" is socialism and communism, nothing else.

So let them stew in their ignorance to the fact that left-leaning ideals are actually increadibly varied and different from each other.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Considering the fact that most of Europe is hard left and they have the same draconian immigration policies as America, Canada, Japan, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand?

Yeah, imma say no.

Now if it's for the sake of human rights? Sure. If it's just being pro/anti immigration because... Eh, it's a mixed bag at best.

Most of Europe is center-left at best. They look leftwing compared to America because they have actual leftist parties and their main dominant parties are social democrats whereas here we just got the centrist party and right wing party, but Europe is not hard left.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Western Europe is "hard left" from an American perspective. Things like universal healthcare are not even an issue for instance.
Of course, it is far more accurate to state that the USA has a heavily rightshifted Overton window.

To a lot of less open minded folks the only thing on the "Hard Left" is socialism and communism, nothing else.

So let them stew in their ignorance to the fact that left-leaning ideals are actually increadibly varied and different from each other.

And the left leaning ideals Europe's governments stand for are not HARD LEFT. They're center-left at furthest.

[Riviere Renard]

I'm not an expert, but I believe classical liberalism, the dominant early left-wing ideology, was founded with ideas like free market, free trade, and, most relevantly, free movement. Now, liberalism has changed a lot since then, most liberals are no long pro free market (compared to people on the right), but freedom of movement, the idea that people should be able to live wherever they please, is still very much a liberal belief. While certainly many people on the right have adopted it for economic reasons, when seen as a moral idea promoting freedom, it is an integral part of liberal ideology. Being said, freedom isn't as important to a lot of people following other left-wing ideologies, and as such, it can be dropped from an ideological narrative if it is viewed as a crime of capitalism, which, because of the exploitation of working-class immigrants by big businesses, it often is.

So, in short, being pro-immigration is important for liberalism and many related ideologies, less so for other left-wing ideologies, such as those based of Marxist Socialism.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I'm not an expert, but I believe classical liberalism, the dominant early left-wing ideology, was founded with ideas like free market, free trade, and, most relevantly, free movement. Now, liberalism has changed a lot since then, most liberals are no long pro free market (compared to people on the right), but freedom of movement, the idea that people should be able to live wherever they please, is still very much a liberal belief. While certainly many people on the right have adopted it for economic reasons, when seen as a moral idea promoting freedom, it is an integral part of liberal ideology. Being said, freedom isn't as important to a lot of people following other left-wing ideologies, and as such, it can be dropped from an ideological narrative if it is viewed as a crime of capitalism, which, because of the exploitation of working-class immigrants by big businesses, it often is.

So, in short, being pro-immigration is important for liberalism and many related ideologies, less so for other left-wing ideologies, such as those based of Marxist Socialism.

Liberals are still very pro free market. All that is required is the free market make sure to be "inclusive" and "diverse" and it can go on being the murder machine it was before.

[The Alma Mater]

To a lot of less open minded folks the only thing on the "Hard Left" is socialism and communism, nothing else.

So let them stew in their ignorance to the fact that left-leaning ideals are actually increadibly varied and different from each other.

And the left leaning ideals Europe's governments stand for are not HARD LEFT. They're center-left at furthest.

From a European perspective - yes. From an American perspective they are.
Remember: Europeans have labour parties and their liberal parties tend to be considered right wing. To Americans this is.. extreme

[Riviere Renard]

I'm not an expert, but I believe classical liberalism, the dominant early left-wing ideology, was founded with ideas like free market, free trade, and, most relevantly, free movement. Now, liberalism has changed a lot since then, most liberals are no long pro free market (compared to people on the right), but freedom of movement, the idea that people should be able to live wherever they please, is still very much a liberal belief. While certainly many people on the right have adopted it for economic reasons, when seen as a moral idea promoting freedom, it is an integral part of liberal ideology. Being said, freedom isn't as important to a lot of people following other left-wing ideologies, and as such, it can be dropped from an ideological narrative if it is viewed as a crime of capitalism, which, because of the exploitation of working-class immigrants by big businesses, it often is.

So, in short, being pro-immigration is important for liberalism and many related ideologies, less so for other left-wing ideologies, such as those based of Marxist Socialism.

Liberals are still very pro free market. All that is required is the free market make sure to be "inclusive" and "diverse" and it can go on being the murder machine it was before.

I suppose I said this from the perspective of Canada, my bad. Also liberals, as least as I, a Canadian, know them, are similar to Social Democrats in their perspective of welfare, which, while not 'anti-free market', is significantly less free market than rightism. Although, you are correct, I was wrong to say they were anti free market.