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Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere": What was it really?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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United Chinese Communes
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Founded: Oct 22, 2020
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Postby United Chinese Communes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:23 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
United Chinese Communes wrote:What exactly is the logic behind this statement? In what way do you believe that the Japanese invasion of China helped East Asian peoples? Because you've repeatedly mentioned that it was in some way beneficial, but you haven't explained how or why.


If Japan actually conquered China the global social status of East Asians would have been even higher than what it is and much higher than what it would have been had Japan or its empire had not existed.

Even right now people on this planet, European, African, Middle Eastern, Indian etc, respect Japanese people and their former colonial subjects, South Koreans & Taiwanese enough that their passports are even stronger than US passports in terms of how many visa-free entrances allowed.

If Japan had succeeded in conquering China, it would likely have been reduced to status of India under the British: an oppressed people under the jackboot of imperialism. Indians were not exactly held in high regard by the other European powers. South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are held in high regard by the American hegemony because they served as valuable assets during the Cold War, not because of Japanese colonialism.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:24 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:If you look at the good side, for example former Japanese forces in Indochina helped natives achieve independence from France.

Lmao nope. At first the Japanese went in to rob resources and force locals to plant industrial trees instead of rice to fuel the Japanese war machine. Then in March 1945 the Japanese kicked the French out and established a puppet state under their control. Meanwhile the Vietnamese people starved, up to 2 million died. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam ... ne_of_1945

Liberation my ass. The Vietnamese even made stories from the event, the most famous one being Vợ nhặt (Picked Wife), which tells the story of how an ugly guy literally picked a woman from the streets and married her, because she was starving and desperately needed a man with food. To marry a man because you are starving... what a tragedy.
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Ellbonnia
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Postby Ellbonnia » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:24 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Japan developed all of Korea. Soviet Union ruined North Korea. Let’s make it clear..


I firmly disagree. Korea as a whole was mostly agrarian and undeveloped for the entire duration of Japanese occupation prior to World War II, as it was before it was annexed in 1910.

North Korea became somewhat industrialized, only because the Soviet Union wanted to build it up as a buffer state between it and South Korea after the war.

I will agree that North Korea is well and truly backwards because of its insane obsession with outdated Communist and juche ideology, and we can very well blame the Soviets for that. However, the Japanese did not exactly bring prosperity to Korea as a whole altogether.
Last edited by Ellbonnia on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:25 pm

United Chinese Communes wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
If Japan actually conquered China the global social status of East Asians would have been even higher than what it is and much higher than what it would have been had Japan or its empire had not existed.

Even right now people on this planet, European, African, Middle Eastern, Indian etc, respect Japanese people and their former colonial subjects, South Koreans & Taiwanese enough that their passports are even stronger than US passports in terms of how many visa-free entrances allowed.

If Japan had succeeded in conquering China, it would likely have been reduced to status of India under the British: an oppressed people under the jackboot of imperialism. Indians were not exactly held in high regard by the other European powers. South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are held in high regard by the American hegemony because they served as valuable assets during the Cold War, not because of Japanese colonialism.


“Valuable assets”. Why hasn’t that helped Africans in pro-West states such as Zaire much though?

Guess what? People did have to care about Japan even before WWII lol.
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TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON
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Postby TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:25 pm

Picairn wrote:
TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:If you look at the good side, for example former Japanese forces in Indochina helped natives achieve independence from France.

Lmao nope. At first the Japanese went in to rob resources and force locals to plant industrial trees instead of rice to fuel the Japanese war machine. Then in March 1945 the Japanese kicked the French out and established a puppet state under their control. Meanwhile the Vietnamese people starved, up to 2 million died. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam ... ne_of_1945

Liberation my ass. The Vietnamese even made stories from the event, the most famous one being Vợ nhặt (Picked Wife), which tells the story of how an ugly guy literally picked a woman from the streets and married her, because she was starving and desperately needed a man with food. To marry a man because you are starving... what a tragedy.


Well that is all possibly true but I am talking about Japanese contributions during the First Indochina War towards Vietnam independence.
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United Chinese Communes
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Postby United Chinese Communes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:25 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:
United Chinese Communes wrote:Yes, because they were both terrible. Europeans doing bad things doesn't excuse the Japanese doing bad things.


That's not what I was talking about. I was mentioning how Japanese troops after the war helped Indochinese independence movements.

And yet those same independence movements were also involved in fighting off the Japanese. Does this suggest that they were particularly interested in Japanese 'help'?
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:26 pm

United Chinese Communes wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
If Japan actually conquered China the global social status of East Asians would have been even higher than what it is and much higher than what it would have been had Japan or its empire had not existed.

Even right now people on this planet, European, African, Middle Eastern, Indian etc, respect Japanese people and their former colonial subjects, South Koreans & Taiwanese enough that their passports are even stronger than US passports in terms of how many visa-free entrances allowed.

If Japan had succeeded in conquering China, it would likely have been reduced to status of India under the British: an oppressed people under the jackboot of imperialism. Indians were not exactly held in high regard by the other European powers. South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are held in high regard by the American hegemony because they served as valuable assets during the Cold War, not because of Japanese colonialism.


More specifically Taiwan and South Korea are held up to such a high standard because they're both* Major Non-NATO Allies of the US, which is an extremely powerful title.

*Taiwan technically isn't due to diplomatic stuff with the PRC but they get all the same treatments
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:28 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
United Chinese Communes wrote:If Japan had succeeded in conquering China, it would likely have been reduced to status of India under the British: an oppressed people under the jackboot of imperialism. Indians were not exactly held in high regard by the other European powers. South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are held in high regard by the American hegemony because they served as valuable assets during the Cold War, not because of Japanese colonialism.


More specifically Taiwan and South Korea are held up to such a high standard because they're both* Major Non-NATO Allies of the US, which is an extremely powerful title.

*Taiwan technically isn't due to diplomatic stuff with the PRC but they get all the same treatments


Why has that happened though? Who built up the East Asian bloc to be something at least worth respecting? Japanese.

In a part of the world without Japan such as Sub-Saharan Africa no amount of courting US or Soviets would have led to similar treatment. This is of course one of the major sources of miseries of Africans, namely they don’t even get to be either allies or villains.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:29 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:Well that is all possibly true but I am talking about Japanese contributions during the First Indochina War towards Vietnam independence.

The Vietnamese people literally decried the Japanese Empire as fascists and tyrants lol, so I don't think they were helping.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:29 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
More specifically Taiwan and South Korea are held up to such a high standard because they're both* Major Non-NATO Allies of the US, which is an extremely powerful title.

*Taiwan technically isn't due to diplomatic stuff with the PRC but they get all the same treatments


Why has that happened though? Who built up the East Asian bloc to be something at least worth respecting? Japanese.


No lmfao, the US did throughout the Cold War. Japan and its empire was literally nothing more than shattered ruins by 1945.
Greco-Roman Polytheist
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON
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Postby TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:29 pm

United Chinese Communes wrote:
TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:
That's not what I was talking about. I was mentioning how Japanese troops after the war helped Indochinese independence movements.

And yet those same independence movements were also involved in fighting off the Japanese. Does this suggest that they were particularly interested in Japanese 'help'?


That is factually wrong. After World War Two, and estimated 5,000 former Japanese soldiers served with the Viet Cong, Việt Minh, Cambodian resistance groups, and Chinese intelligence to achieve independence of Vietnam.
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Postby Mandicoria » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:30 pm

United Chinese Communes wrote:As I see it, the Co-Prosperity Sphere project was an attempt to develop a hegemonic empire centred on Japanese dominance under the guise of opposing European imperialism. The people of Asia would not have been any better off under Japanese imperial-colonial rule than they would have been under that of the European powers, regardless of it's pan-asian ideological justification. The text An Investigation of Global Policy with the Yamato Race as Nucleus shows clear inspiration from European racial-colonial philosophy, a model that Japan sought to emulate through the 'liberation' of nations drawn into the Sphere.

Couldn't have said it better myself
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:30 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Why has that happened though? Who built up the East Asian bloc to be something at least worth respecting? Japanese.


No lmfao, the US did throughout the Cold War. Japan and its empire was literally nothing more than shattered ruins by 1945.


Lmao. Then why didn’t US develop DR Congo (which was called Zaire)? Mobutu was pro-Western. Did he earn a Major Non-NATO Ally status as a result?
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
Cats rule; dogs drool; Israel rocks; China sucks.
Abolish China and save lives.
What is Sinostatism?
Must read on China by David Goldman https://www.tabletmag.com/amp/sections/ ... ina-empire

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Ellbonnia
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Postby Ellbonnia » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:30 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Why has that happened though? Who built up the East Asian bloc to be something at least worth respecting? Japanese.


Actually, the rapid modernization of South Korean society was a direct result of post-World War II assistance from the United States. The Korean economy actually stagnated during Japanese occupation as the Japanese exploited their natural resources and manpower to assist the mainland.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:32 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:That is factually wrong. After World War Two, and estimated 5,000 former Japanese soldiers served with the Viet Cong, Việt Minh, Cambodian resistance groups, and Chinese intelligence to achieve independence of Vietnam.

I don't know where you get that from but the Vietnamese revolted against Japanese rule, the August Revolution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Revolution
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Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Salus Maior wrote:Nothing we say here actually matters.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
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United Chinese Communes
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Postby United Chinese Communes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:32 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:
United Chinese Communes wrote:And yet those same independence movements were also involved in fighting off the Japanese. Does this suggest that they were particularly interested in Japanese 'help'?


That is factually wrong. After World War Two, and estimated 5,000 former Japanese soldiers served with the Viet Cong, Việt Minh, Cambodian resistance groups, and Chinese intelligence to achieve independence of Vietnam.

You may not have noticed, but Empire of Japan and the Co-Prosperity Sphere were crushed after WW2, during which they were fought by Indochinese independence movements after they invaded.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:32 pm

Ellbonnia wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Why has that happened though? Who built up the East Asian bloc to be something at least worth respecting? Japanese.


Actually, the rapid modernization of South Korean society was a direct result of post-World War II assistance from the United States. The Korean economy actually stagnated during Japanese occupation as the Japanese exploited their natural resources and manpower to assist the mainland.


Nope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_u ... e_rule.png

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_u ... e_rule.svg

Post-War South Korea was a continuation of Japanese Korea. Without the Japanese era US aid may not have helped that much.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
Cats rule; dogs drool; Israel rocks; China sucks.
Abolish China and save lives.
What is Sinostatism?
Must read on China by David Goldman https://www.tabletmag.com/amp/sections/ ... ina-empire

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TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON
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Postby TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:32 pm

Picairn wrote:
TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:Well that is all possibly true but I am talking about Japanese contributions during the First Indochina War towards Vietnam independence.

The Vietnamese people literally decried the Japanese Empire as fascists and tyrants lol, so I don't think they were helping.


I already addressed this but I will give an example. Major Ishii Takuo of the 55th Division. He gathered Japanese volunteers to help the Vietnamese cause, and became a colonel and adviser to General Nguyễn Sơn. He headed Quảng Ngãi Military Academy and founded Tuy Hòa Military Academy before being killed in combat by the French.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:33 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
No lmfao, the US did throughout the Cold War. Japan and its empire was literally nothing more than shattered ruins by 1945.


Lmao. Then why didn’t US develop DR Congo (which was called Zaire)? Mobutu was pro-Western. Did he earn a Major Non-NATO Ally status as a result?


Because Zaire had no overall strategic usage to the US at the time? Do you even understand basic geopolitics?
Greco-Roman Polytheist
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON
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Postby TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:34 pm

Picairn wrote:
TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:That is factually wrong. After World War Two, and estimated 5,000 former Japanese soldiers served with the Viet Cong, Việt Minh, Cambodian resistance groups, and Chinese intelligence to achieve independence of Vietnam.

I don't know where you get that from but the Vietnamese revolted against Japanese rule, the August Revolution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Revolution


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Ind ... volunteers

You are stuck on 1945 and I am talking about 1946-1970s
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:34 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Lmao. Then why didn’t US develop DR Congo (which was called Zaire)? Mobutu was pro-Western. Did he earn a Major Non-NATO Ally status as a result?


Because Zaire had no overall strategic usage to the US at the time? Do you even understand basic geopolitics?


Why is that true though? Because Sub-Saharan Africa was and still is generally weak. It’s Japan that made East Asia a place that geopolitically even matter to Europeans.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
Cats rule; dogs drool; Israel rocks; China sucks.
Abolish China and save lives.
What is Sinostatism?
Must read on China by David Goldman https://www.tabletmag.com/amp/sections/ ... ina-empire

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United Chinese Communes
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Postby United Chinese Communes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:35 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
No lmfao, the US did throughout the Cold War. Japan and its empire was literally nothing more than shattered ruins by 1945.


Lmao. Then why didn’t US develop DR Congo (which was called Zaire)? Mobutu was pro-Western. Did he earn a Major Non-NATO Ally status as a result?

It is not about being 'pro-western', it is about strategic significance. Much of the conflict of the Cold War took place in East and Southeast Asia, so allies in the region are considered to be more valuable than those in Africa and South America.
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Ellbonnia
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Postby Ellbonnia » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:36 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Nope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_u ... e_rule.png

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_u ... e_rule.svg

Post-War South Korea was a continuation of Japanese Korea. Without the Japanese era US aid may not have helped that much.


From the same article:
"Virtually all industries were owned either by Japan-based corporations or by Japanese corporations in Korea. As of 1942, indigenous capital constituted only 1.5 percent of the total capital invested in Korean industries. Korean entrepreneurs were charged interest rates 25 percent higher than their Japanese counterparts, so it was difficult for large Korean enterprises to emerge. More and more farmland was taken over by the Japanese, and an increasing proportion of Korean farmers either became sharecroppers or migrated to Japan or Manchuria as laborers. As greater quantities of Korean rice were exported to Japan, per capita consumption of rice among the Koreans declined; between 1932 and 1936, per capita consumption of rice declined to half the level consumed between 1912 and 1916. Although the government imported coarse grains from Manchuria to augment the Korean food supply, per capita consumption of food grains in 1944 was 35 percent below that of 1912 to 1916."

In other words, mercantilism at its finest. Boosting economic capabilities only to benefit the occupying force rather than the general populace who are doing all of the actual work.
"Hello, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to your first-ever sortie! Please ignore all the subtitles at the bottom of the briefing; I don't know what's causing them, and it's probably a ghost-"


"Trigger, time to show the other guys that we get wet, wild, and do dirty, DIRTY things~" Shut up, Clown.


Chartreuse is my favorite color.

No one cares what you have to saaaay!

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47608
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:36 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Because Zaire had no overall strategic usage to the US at the time? Do you even understand basic geopolitics?


Why is that true though? Because Sub-Saharan Africa was and still is generally weak.


No it's because there was no opposing bloc we needed to form a barrier against in sub-Saharan Africa lol. Literally the only reason we built up our East Asian allies so much was to oppose the USSR and then the PRC. That's it. I don't mean to be insulting but you don't understand anything about how the world works.
Greco-Roman Polytheist
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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The Reformed American Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 2962
Founded: May 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:36 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Picairn wrote:Nekostan coming in to justify Japanese imperialism in 3... 2... 1...


Yup. The Empire of Japan was awesome. The only issue here is that it shouldn’t have picked fight with Anglos which caused a lot of sorrows on both sides.

Your ideology is genocidal then.

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