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Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere": What was it really?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Greater Kopmakia
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Postby Greater Kopmakia » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:03 am

Marxist Germany wrote:To all those defending the Japanese empire: Unit 731

Thousands of men, women, children and infants interned at prisoner of war camps were subjected to vivisection, often without anesthesia and usually ending with the death of the victim.[25][26] Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Researchers performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body.

[...]

Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss. Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body. Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines. Parts of organs, such as the brain, lungs, and liver, were removed from some prisoners.

[...]

At least 12 large-scale field trials of biological weapons were performed, and at least 11 Chinese cities were attacked with biological agents. An attack on Changda in 1941 reportedly led to approximately 10,000 biological casualties and 1,700 deaths among ill-prepared Japanese troops, with most cases due to cholera.[4] Japanese researchers performed tests on prisoners with bubonic plague, cholera, smallpox, botulism, and other diseases.[33] This research led to the development of the defoliation bacilli bomb and the flea bomb used to spread bubonic plague.[34] Some of these bombs were designed with porcelain shells, an idea proposed by Ishii in 1938.

[...]

During the final months of World War II, Japan planned to use plague as a biological weapon against San Diego, California. The plan was scheduled to launch on September 22, 1945, but Japan surrendered five weeks earlier.[35][36][37][38] Plague fleas, infected clothing and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed at least 400,000 Chinese civilians.[39] Tularemia was also tested on Chinese civilians.[40]

[...]

Army Engineer Hisato Yoshimura conducted experiments by taking captives outside, dipping various appendages into water, and allowing the limb to freeze.[49] Once frozen, which testimony from a Japanese officer said "was determined after the 'frozen arms, when struck with a short stick, emitted a sound resembling that which a board gives when it is struck'",[50] ice was chipped away and the area doused in water, limbs brought close to fire and other "methods" used to determine the effect it had on frostbite. The effects of different water temperatures were tested by bludgeoning the victim to determine if any areas were still frozen.

[...]

"Infection of venereal disease by injection was abandoned, and the researchers started forcing the prisoners into sexual acts with each other. Four or five unit members, dressed in white laboratory clothing completely covering the body with only eyes and mouth visible, rest covered, handled the tests. A male and female, one infected with syphilis, would be brought together in a cell and forced into sex with each other. It was made clear that anyone resisting would be shot."

[...]

Female prisoners were forced to become pregnant for use in experiments. The hypothetical possibility of vertical transmission (from mother to child) of diseases, particularly syphilis, was the stated reason for the torture. Fetal survival and damage to mother's reproductive organs were objects of interest. Though "a large number of babies were born in captivity", there have been no accounts of any survivors of Unit 731, children included. It is suspected that the children of female prisoners were killed after birth or aborted.

Jesus christ that's... that's horrifying...
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Postby Novo Portugal » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:08 am



Came here to see if anyone noticed it, was not disappointed.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:12 am

It was a colonial empire. Japan had very little interest in advancing the wellbeing of surrounding nations. That's easily demonstrated by Japan's decision to invade them.
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Postby Rusozak » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:45 am

Marxist Germany wrote:To all those defending the Japanese empire: Unit 731

Thousands of men, women, children and infants interned at prisoner of war camps were subjected to vivisection, often without anesthesia and usually ending with the death of the victim.[25][26] Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Researchers performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body.

[...]

Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss. Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body. Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines. Parts of organs, such as the brain, lungs, and liver, were removed from some prisoners.

[...]

At least 12 large-scale field trials of biological weapons were performed, and at least 11 Chinese cities were attacked with biological agents. An attack on Changda in 1941 reportedly led to approximately 10,000 biological casualties and 1,700 deaths among ill-prepared Japanese troops, with most cases due to cholera.[4] Japanese researchers performed tests on prisoners with bubonic plague, cholera, smallpox, botulism, and other diseases.[33] This research led to the development of the defoliation bacilli bomb and the flea bomb used to spread bubonic plague.[34] Some of these bombs were designed with porcelain shells, an idea proposed by Ishii in 1938.

[...]

During the final months of World War II, Japan planned to use plague as a biological weapon against San Diego, California. The plan was scheduled to launch on September 22, 1945, but Japan surrendered five weeks earlier.[35][36][37][38] Plague fleas, infected clothing and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed at least 400,000 Chinese civilians.[39] Tularemia was also tested on Chinese civilians.[40]

[...]

Army Engineer Hisato Yoshimura conducted experiments by taking captives outside, dipping various appendages into water, and allowing the limb to freeze.[49] Once frozen, which testimony from a Japanese officer said "was determined after the 'frozen arms, when struck with a short stick, emitted a sound resembling that which a board gives when it is struck'",[50] ice was chipped away and the area doused in water, limbs brought close to fire and other "methods" used to determine the effect it had on frostbite. The effects of different water temperatures were tested by bludgeoning the victim to determine if any areas were still frozen.

[...]

"Infection of venereal disease by injection was abandoned, and the researchers started forcing the prisoners into sexual acts with each other. Four or five unit members, dressed in white laboratory clothing completely covering the body with only eyes and mouth visible, rest covered, handled the tests. A male and female, one infected with syphilis, would be brought together in a cell and forced into sex with each other. It was made clear that anyone resisting would be shot."

[...]

Female prisoners were forced to become pregnant for use in experiments. The hypothetical possibility of vertical transmission (from mother to child) of diseases, particularly syphilis, was the stated reason for the torture. Fetal survival and damage to mother's reproductive organs were objects of interest. Though "a large number of babies were born in captivity", there have been no accounts of any survivors of Unit 731, children included. It is suspected that the children of female prisoners were killed after birth or aborted.


Jesus Christ, that's almost worse than Mengele's experiments. The Nazis get a lot of attention because of the efficiency and ample documentation, but clearly wartime Japan was just as sick and twisted.
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:53 am

Genocide and forcefully subjecting peoples is generally a bad thing and that's all this was.
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Postby Conservative Republic Of Huang » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:11 pm

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And in the case of some nations impacted the hardest, they have not quite forgiven.

How can there be forgiveness without contrition?
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Postby Atheris » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:52 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:To all those defending the Japanese empire: Unit 731

Thousands of men, women, children and infants interned at prisoner of war camps were subjected to vivisection, often without anesthesia and usually ending with the death of the victim.[25][26] Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Researchers performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body.

[...]

Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss. Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body. Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines. Parts of organs, such as the brain, lungs, and liver, were removed from some prisoners.

[...]

At least 12 large-scale field trials of biological weapons were performed, and at least 11 Chinese cities were attacked with biological agents. An attack on Changda in 1941 reportedly led to approximately 10,000 biological casualties and 1,700 deaths among ill-prepared Japanese troops, with most cases due to cholera.[4] Japanese researchers performed tests on prisoners with bubonic plague, cholera, smallpox, botulism, and other diseases.[33] This research led to the development of the defoliation bacilli bomb and the flea bomb used to spread bubonic plague.[34] Some of these bombs were designed with porcelain shells, an idea proposed by Ishii in 1938.

[...]

During the final months of World War II, Japan planned to use plague as a biological weapon against San Diego, California. The plan was scheduled to launch on September 22, 1945, but Japan surrendered five weeks earlier.[35][36][37][38] Plague fleas, infected clothing and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed at least 400,000 Chinese civilians.[39] Tularemia was also tested on Chinese civilians.[40]

[...]

Army Engineer Hisato Yoshimura conducted experiments by taking captives outside, dipping various appendages into water, and allowing the limb to freeze.[49] Once frozen, which testimony from a Japanese officer said "was determined after the 'frozen arms, when struck with a short stick, emitted a sound resembling that which a board gives when it is struck'",[50] ice was chipped away and the area doused in water, limbs brought close to fire and other "methods" used to determine the effect it had on frostbite. The effects of different water temperatures were tested by bludgeoning the victim to determine if any areas were still frozen.

[...]

"Infection of venereal disease by injection was abandoned, and the researchers started forcing the prisoners into sexual acts with each other. Four or five unit members, dressed in white laboratory clothing completely covering the body with only eyes and mouth visible, rest covered, handled the tests. A male and female, one infected with syphilis, would be brought together in a cell and forced into sex with each other. It was made clear that anyone resisting would be shot."

[...]

Female prisoners were forced to become pregnant for use in experiments. The hypothetical possibility of vertical transmission (from mother to child) of diseases, particularly syphilis, was the stated reason for the torture. Fetal survival and damage to mother's reproductive organs were objects of interest. Though "a large number of babies were born in captivity", there have been no accounts of any survivors of Unit 731, children included. It is suspected that the children of female prisoners were killed after birth or aborted.

Like I said: worse than the Nazis.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:56 pm

Rusozak wrote:
Marxist Germany wrote:To all those defending the Japanese empire: Unit 731



Jesus Christ, that's almost worse than Mengele's experiments. The Nazis get a lot of attention because of the efficiency and ample documentation, but clearly wartime Japan was just as sick and twisted.


It is worse than Mengele's experiments. 731 was effectively a large amount of Mengele's given tons of funding and limitless people to experiment on and it's just horrific.
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Postby Atheris » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:58 pm

United Chinese Communes wrote:
Atheris wrote:Worse than the Nazis. The textbook definition of "empire". Absolutely disgusting.

I can certainly agree with the latter statements, but given that the Nazis developed a system of industrialised genocide the likes of which the world had never before seen (and thankfully has never seen since) I would hesitate to call practically anyone worse.

Worse in practice. If the Nazis won, then they'd obviously be worse than the Japanese Empire, but they didn't. In the short period where both existed, the Japanese Empire outclassed the Nazis by so much more.
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Pan-Asiatic States
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Postby Pan-Asiatic States » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:47 pm

Ellbonnia wrote:But of course, this is just my view. What do you all think of this controversial aspect of 20th-century Asian history?


I can't speak for other member-states of the Co-Prosperity Sphere, and I'm not going to justify the god-awful atrocities the Japanese committed (especially as a Filipino), but I will say that from a Filipino perspective, I understand why the GEACPS saw some popularity and why some people supported it. I think the Pacific theatre was simply inevitable because of this fact, and even if the Japanese did not attack Pearl Harbour, some other Asian country would have instigated a WW2-style Pan-Asian "revolution" at a much later date anyway.

Anyway, I'm going to discuss why some of my countrymen actually collaborated with the Japanese to make the GEACPS happen. Like I said I don't know if the case is the same with other GEACPS member-states like Indonesia or in your case, Korea, but I am well-read about this era of my country's history and I just want to contribute to the thread.

The Americans committed ungodly atrocities during the Philippine-American War (which ended circa 1901). Filipino democratic revolutionaries were forced to fight a guerilla war, and were scattered across the archipelago. For many who were hopeful that the Philippines would become the first non-American native liberal, constitutional democracy, this was a humiliating setback. Many of the revolution's leaders fled to three places in particular when the Americans exiled them: Hong Kong, Formosa, and Yokohama.

Yokohama was, in particular, a boiling point for anti-Western sentiment. Democratic revolutionaries from Indonesia, China, and the Philippines sought refuge here and contacted organizations like the Black Dragon Society to see if they could use their influence to ask the Japanese ministry of commerce for money to continue their revolution. On the other hand, laws such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and many of Australia's apartheid-esque racist 20th century laws were highly publicized by Japan's free press, and caused massive outrage. Combined with what the exiled anti-imperialist revolutionaries of Asia were saying, the Japanese people (who had themselves been humiliated by the Americans not so long ago) were legitimately angered and in fact, much of the intelligentsia had highly benign intentions in this regard.

Then, the military took power in Japan. Subtly, many high-ranking political officials became puppets of the military. It's important to note that at this point that the Japanese government had essentially adapted two completely opposing ideologies: the first being that Japan should be to the Asia what the USA was to South America (i.e Japanese Monroe Doctrine), and the other being that all people of Asia should be freed from Western imperialism.

Long story short, those who advocated for the former had guns and those who advocated for the latter were university teachers and politicians, so you do the math. The people who actually advocated for benign Pan-Asianism were assassinated one by one, and actually a lot were already killed during the Showa Restoration. Support for local democratic revolutionaries dried up with the funds which went to the IJA/IJN. The government decided to promote the idea of a Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere to the public as one where all Asian peoples would live free, while on the other hand also enacting a Monroe Doctrine style dictation of what government forms should be installed in each Asian country.

In the Philippines, the Japanese installed a popular figurehead and granted Filipinos independence (at least on paper) so long as they fought alongside the GEACPS until the end of the war. Filipinos were thrilled about this because the Americans, on the other hand, didn't promise independence until 1947, and hadn't kept their promise about independence in 1935—so for all intents and purposes, this was as close to actual independence as we Filipinos would get at the time. That; the fact that many Filipino revolutionaries from the aforementioned guerilla war supported the Japanese (remember, this was only 40 years since the end of the Philippine revolution and many of the revolutionaries were in their 20s when they assumed high-ranking positions); and the fact that the Americans were extremely racist and had put in place an apartheid system before the war, legitimately convinced many Filipinos to join the struggle and actually fight the Americans during WW2. There are even accounts that suggest Filipinos participated in Banzai charges towards the end of WW2, something which I totally believe.

Basically, the common consensus is that there was an extreme cognitive dissonance right from the very beginning between the two wings of Japan's 20th century ideology. I truly believe that a lot of Japanese and other Asian collaborators believed in what they were fighting for because some truly demonstrated heroic resolve for their ideology, and a lot of revolution-era heroes who fought and bled to create an independent Philippines fought or at least supported the Japanese side. Mind you, of course, not all Japanese soldiers fought for the "benign" wing of the Pan-Asian ideology, some were just legitimately psychopaths, but that's how they got common people to enlist, train, and fight. That's war for you. It kills everyone, regardless of what they wanted to get out of the war.

TLDR: Western pre-WW2 atrocities were horrible. The extremely vengeful soldiers who fought on the Japanese side believed they were Pan-Asian revolutionaries, were used by their generals for their own gain, and then ended up committing atrocities. Some were good, others bad, but I do believe Pan-Asianism wasn't just facade for a lot of people and many Asian countries had understandable reason to fight on the side of GEACPS.

Also before anyone accuses me of being pro-Japanese, I'll just say that I've been to a lot of places where Japan committed atrocities and I just overall hate that Japan had to intervene during the WW2 era. Tbh the Americans are not much better, they literally Dresden'd my country's capital for no good reason. I wish the Sakdal Uprising had succeeded, instead of its leaders being turned into collaborators by Japan.
Last edited by Pan-Asiatic States on Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby The Two Jerseys » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:02 pm

An empire with a marketing department.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:05 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:An empire with a marketing department.

Thats what I said, but nobody listens...
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Postby Pan-Asiatic States » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:10 pm

Sidenote to my previous post but just honestly, the Asian theatre during WW2 is just a really interesting and very underrated aspect of history—mostly because many of the ideological goals of the countries during this time were short-lived, and the geopolitical consequences are subtle.

It's just really unfortunate that people focus on the European theatre, tbh.

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Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:41 pm

So why was Nekostan-e Gharbi deleted?
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:43 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:So why was Nekostan-e Gharbi deleted?

DOS
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Postby The Marlborough » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:43 pm

It's worth noting that the head of Unit 731, Shiro Ishii, was never brought to justice and MacArthur and the US government actively covered up the crimes of Unit 731 and Unit 100. Not to mention the covering up for Hirohito's role in all of the atrocities (Hirohito specifically framed the Second Sino-Japanese War so that Japan wouldn't have to follow international laws regarding the treatment of POW's and civilians along with personally sanctioning the use of biological and chemical weapons on Chinese settlements).

There were Japanese commanders who never should have been executed but were while the real monsters were let go.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:43 pm

Greater Kopmakia wrote:
Marxist Germany wrote:To all those defending the Japanese empire: Unit 731


Jesus christ that's... that's horrifying...


The Japanese version of Mengele.
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Postby The Marlborough » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:43 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:So why was Nekostan-e Gharbi deleted?

Started spamming and it seems possible they were the one responsible for the porn spam. Which, given some of the stuff supposedly posted, could land them in some deep shit.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:44 pm

The Marlborough wrote:It's worth noting that the head of Unit 731, Shiro Ishii, was never brought to justice and MacArthur and the US government actively covered up the crimes of Unit 731 and Unit 100. Not to mention the covering up for Hirohito's role in all of the atrocities (Hirohito specifically framed the Second Sino-Japanese War so that Japan wouldn't have to follow international laws regarding the treatment of POW's and civilians along with personally sanctioning the use of biological and chemical weapons on Chinese settlements).

There were Japanese commanders who never should have been executed but were while the real monsters were let go.

Never prosecuted? The guy became the head of their green cross.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:45 pm

Nekostan-e Sharqi wrote:
Picairn wrote:Well this is an unexpected turn of events.


Yup. The history of Katzenstaat is very similar to the history of Nekostans. Why haven’t people noticed?


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Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:45 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:So why was Nekostan-e Gharbi deleted?

DOS

Ahhh. Honestly not that surprised.
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:46 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Picairn wrote:Japan was even worse than European powers.


Lol nope. You can of course claim that because a world without Empire of Japan doesn’t harm you.

Correct, but a world with it harmed a great great many people.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
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Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

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Conservative Republic Of Huang
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Posts: 1724
Founded: Jul 09, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Conservative Republic Of Huang » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:47 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:So why was Nekostan-e Gharbi deleted?

DOS

Is he? Nekostan-e sharqi is still around.
Pro: Direct democracy, e-democracy, parliamentary sovereignty, state secularism, non-violent direct action (striking), police reform, syndicalism, democratic workplace management
Anti: Most types of representative democracy, ultra-nationalism, imperialism, autocratic workplace management

"In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say syndicalism now, syndicalism tomorrow, syndicalism forever."
George Wallace, 1963, maybe

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Ethel mermania
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Posts: 111737
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:49 pm

Conservative Republic Of Huang wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:DOS

Is he? Nekostan-e sharqi is still around.

Sometimes they don't catch em all
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Posts: 10445
Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:49 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Lol nope. You can of course claim that because a world without Empire of Japan doesn’t harm you.

Correct, but a world with it harmed a great great many people.


At least 11 million.
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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