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Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere": What was it really?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Comerciante
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Postby Comerciante » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:02 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Comerciante wrote:Cool Motive! Still Murder!


Yeah. Guess what? The world is full of assholes. The point is lowering the amount of total asshatry, not eliminating it for the latter is impossible.

The world being full of assholes is not justification to become yourself an asshole.

The only thing different between the Western Powers the Japanese sought to defy and the Western Powers that be, was that the Japanese also happened to be Asian.

The Japanese had no different designs for their actions then the Western Powers did, and treated other Asian countries no different. Just because they invented their own version of the "White Mans Burdern" doesn't make it any better.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:03 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Lol nope. You can of course claim that because a world without Empire of Japan doesn’t harm you.

Lol yes. You have never seen Japanese crimes, have you?
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:03 pm

Ellbonnia wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:There is a huge difference though since the Empire of Japan prevented global racial monopoly which just like all other monopolies are awful. Without the Empire of Japan you could have lived on some “subhuman reservation” or outright exterminated.


The Japanese did not exactly treat any of their client nations with any sort of true respect. The only "positive" aspect of Japanese occupation was for my Korean great-grandfather, who was educated in Japan.

While yes, this might not have happened under European rule, even this "opportunity" came at a cost: He was treated as a lesser being by the Japanese, forced to adapt an entirely new Japanese-style name, and was essentially only taught what the Japanese wanted him to learn as a substandard member of the Co-Prosperity Sphere. He did not even wish to be educated by them in the first place, but he was forced to leave behind his family to become a model-minority citizen for the Japanese Empire to use as they wished.

This is nowhere near as bad as the massacres conducted by the IJA during the Sino-Japanese War, but is still an example of the inherent inequality that is encouraged by Japanese nationalism but compromises the very nature of a "Co-Prosperity" Sphere as espoused by their leaders.


I agree that Japanese rule was often not very fun. However without a leading power like Japan it is likely that the global social status of East Asians in general would have been lower. That’s a much more serious issue in the long run.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:04 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Picairn wrote:Japan was even worse than European powers.


Lol nope. You can of course claim that because a world without Empire of Japan doesn’t harm you.

World War 2 was really bad.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:05 pm

Picairn wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Lol nope. You can of course claim that because a world without Empire of Japan doesn’t harm you.

Lol yes. You have never seen Japanese crimes, have you?


I have. So what? Influence on norms matter more than concrete issues in the long run.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

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Ellbonnia
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Postby Ellbonnia » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:06 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:I agree that Japanese rule was often not very fun. However without a leading power like Japan it is likely that the global social status of East Asians in general would have been lower.


I would say that as much as I detest what the Japanese did in reality, I would have been completely on-board with a true interpretation of a co-prosperity sphere in which every Asian nation was equally as valued in their collective society. It perhaps would have accomplished its goal of standing up to the colonial ambitions of the European powers and raised the collective conditions of Asia as a whole.

But obviously, that did not occur in reality, and I don't think such an idealistic concept could be executed without devolving into the corrupted form it took under Imperial Japan.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:06 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:I have. So what? Influence on norms matter more than concrete issues in the long run.

Tell that to the 20+ millions of Asians that the Japanese massacred.

You sacrifice morals for a vague cause. Not exactly good here.
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United Chinese Communes
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Postby United Chinese Communes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:07 pm

The Horror Channel wrote:
United Chinese Communes wrote:As I see it, the Co-Prosperity Sphere project was an attempt to develop a hegemonic empire centred on Japanese dominance under the guise of opposing European imperialism. The people of Asia would not have been any better off under Japanese imperial-colonial rule than they would have been under that of the European powers, regardless of it's pan-asian ideological justification. The text An Investigation of Global Policy with the Yamato Race as Nucleus shows clear inspiration from European racial-colonial philosophy, a model that Japan sought to emulate through the 'liberation' of nations drawn into the Sphere.


I'd argue that what actually happened under Imperial Japan was way worse than anything that could have happened under a more European influence.

Eh, maybe. It's difficult to compare atrocities because there isn't exactly a good way to quantify them in a way that isn't supremely dehumanising. The Imperial Japanese did some truly horrible things (Rape of Nanjing, Unit 731, forced labour in Manchuria) but so did the European colonial powers (Bengal Famine, Transatlantic Slave Trade, Belgian Congo). It's easiest just to say that both were really, really bad.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:07 pm

Picairn wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:I have. So what? Influence on norms matter more than concrete issues in the long run.

Tell that to the 20+ millions of Asians that the Japanese massacred.

You sacrifice morals for a vague cause. Not exactly good here.


It’s because of Japan that not even more got massacred.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:08 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:It’s because of Japan that not even more got massacred.

Hahahaha. Good joke.
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Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

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according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

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Comerciante
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Postby Comerciante » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:09 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Picairn wrote:Tell that to the 20+ millions of Asians that the Japanese massacred.

You sacrifice morals for a vague cause. Not exactly good here.


It’s because of Japan that not even more got massacred.

See this is you right now:

Image
Last edited by Comerciante on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby United Chinese Communes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:10 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Picairn wrote:Tell that to the 20+ millions of Asians that the Japanese massacred.

You sacrifice morals for a vague cause. Not exactly good here.


It’s because of Japan that not even more got massacred.

What exactly is the logic behind this statement? In what way do you believe that the Japanese invasion of China helped East Asian peoples? Because you've repeatedly mentioned that it was in some way beneficial, but you haven't explained how or why.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:11 pm

Ellbonnia wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:I agree that Japanese rule was often not very fun. However without a leading power like Japan it is likely that the global social status of East Asians in general would have been lower.


I would say that as much as I detest what the Japanese did in reality, I would have been completely on-board with a true interpretation of a co-prosperity sphere in which every Asian nation was equally as valued in their collective society. It perhaps would have accomplished its goal of standing up to the colonial ambitions of the European powers and raised the collective conditions of Asia as a whole.

But obviously, that did not occur in reality, and I don't think such an idealistic concept could be executed without devolving into the corrupted form it took under Imperial Japan.


There is almost no pan-Asianism today precisely because there is no longer such a need (that is, East Asia is strong enough without having to be a bloc). Guess why? It is because Japan did develop Taiwan and South Korea and that post-war leaders of these countries usually had interesting relations with Japanese politicians even before the war and their development is modeled on that of Japan. Even many leaders of Burma and Indonesia had Japanese connections.

Note that China is always a strikebreaker & sell out on almost all issues no matter what it claims to support. It first betrayed Japan and then betrayed Soviet Union and finally betrayed the United States. This is one of the reasons why it must be abolished for its inherent lawlessness and amorality.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

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Postby TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:14 pm

The concept of Hakkō ichiu itself that went behind the Sphere was not bad, it was basically the Monroe Doctrine. It is kinda like communism, the idea itself sound great but when implemented becomes a mess.

According to Dr. Ba Maw, had the concept alone been implemented, "No military defeat could then have robbed her of the trust and gratitude of half of Asia or even more, and that would have mattered a great deal in finding for her a new, great, and abiding place in a postwar world in which Asia was coming into her own."

If you look at the good side, for example former Japanese forces in Indochina helped natives achieve independence from France.
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Postby Heloin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:15 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:The concept of Hakkō ichiu itself that went behind the Sphere was not bad, it was basically the Monroe Doctrine. It is kinda like communism, the idea itself sound great but when implemented becomes a mess.

According to Dr. Ba Maw, had the concept alone been implemented, "No military defeat could then have robbed her of the trust and gratitude of half of Asia or even more, and that would have mattered a great deal in finding for her a new, great, and abiding place in a postwar world in which Asia was coming into her own."

If you look at the good side, for example former Japanese forces in Indochina helped natives achieve independence from France.

The independence movements in Indochina fought the Japanese.
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Postby Ellbonnia » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:There is almost no pan-Asianism today precisely because there is no longer such a need (that is, East Asia is strong enough without having to be a bloc). Guess why? It is because Japan did develop Taiwan and South Korea and that post-war leaders of these countries usually had interesting relations with Japanese politicians even before the war. Even many leaders of Burma and Indonesia had Japanese connections.


Perhaps the geopolitical landscape post-World War II has been influenced by the actions of Imperial Japan beforehand, but this does not excuse the atrocities committed under their rule.

I understand the whole "To make an omelette, you need to break a few eggs" argument you have, but I don't believe the Japanese shouldn't be punished for the crimes we know they committed. While some Japanese war criminals did indeed face justice, Japan as a society seems to believe that they are absolutely blameless for their acts of violence altogether. The continued existence of something as woefully out-of-touch as the Yasukuni Shrine is proof of that. We should remember not only any positive aspects that came post-World War II, but especially the atrocities committed by them, to prevent such tragedies from occurring again.

In a very simplistic sense, humanity may be something of a Darwinist entity, but even then this does not excuse us for choosing to commit terrible actions for the sake of national pride.

As for the Chinese role in the war, it is important to note that even before the war broke out the nation was fractured into dozens of warbands, each with a lord with their own morals and motivations. While it's true some warlords chose to collaborate with Japan àla Manchukuo, that wasn't a sign that China as a whole supported the Japanese; quite the opposite. The bulk of the Chinese people were firmly against Japanese occupation, and the fact that the Kuomintang and Communist forces were able to ally at all was proof enough that their resistance against the Japanese overrode any grievances between each other.
Last edited by Ellbonnia on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:17 pm

There was a genuine pan-Asian sentiment amongst the founders of the idea but it really quickly got hijacked by Japanese racialism and colonialism.
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Postby TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:17 pm

Heloin wrote:
TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:The concept of Hakkō ichiu itself that went behind the Sphere was not bad, it was basically the Monroe Doctrine. It is kinda like communism, the idea itself sound great but when implemented becomes a mess.

According to Dr. Ba Maw, had the concept alone been implemented, "No military defeat could then have robbed her of the trust and gratitude of half of Asia or even more, and that would have mattered a great deal in finding for her a new, great, and abiding place in a postwar world in which Asia was coming into her own."

If you look at the good side, for example former Japanese forces in Indochina helped natives achieve independence from France.

The independence movements in Indochina fought the Japanese.


Independence movements in Indochina also later fought the French.
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Postby Heloin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:18 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:
Heloin wrote:The independence movements in Indochina fought the Japanese.


Independence movements in Indochina also later fought the French.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:18 pm

Also just for anyone reading Neko's idea that Japan developed South Korea is pure fantasy. South Korea was poorer than the North until the 1980's.
Last edited by Washington Resistance Army on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:19 pm

United Chinese Communes wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
It’s because of Japan that not even more got massacred.

What exactly is the logic behind this statement? In what way do you believe that the Japanese invasion of China helped East Asian peoples? Because you've repeatedly mentioned that it was in some way beneficial, but you haven't explained how or why.


If Japan actually conquered China the global social status of East Asians would have been even higher than what it is and much higher than what it would have been had Japan or its empire had not existed.

Even right now people on this planet, European, African, Middle Eastern, Indian etc, respect Japanese people and their former colonial subjects, South Koreans & Taiwanese enough that their passports are even stronger than US passports in terms of how many visa-free entrances allowed.

Contrast that with China, which has no respect with or without communism since it is not worthy of respect. No republic wants to tolerate a weird strikebreaking nation that threatens everyone’s freedom through race to the bottom. There is a reason why many Africans think Chinese laborers are death row prisoners since all they do is working extremely hard for very little pay and undercutting everyone else.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby United Chinese Communes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:19 pm

TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:
Heloin wrote:The independence movements in Indochina fought the Japanese.


Independence movements in Indochina also later fought the French.

Yes, because they were both terrible. Europeans doing bad things doesn't excuse the Japanese doing bad things.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:19 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Also just for anyone reading Neko's idea that Japan developed South Korea is pure fantasy. South Korea was poorer than the North until the 1980's.


Japan developed all of Korea. Soviet Union ruined North Korea. Let’s make it clear..
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
Cats rule; dogs drool; Israel rocks; China sucks.
Abolish China and save lives.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Also just for anyone reading Neko's idea that Japan developed South Korea is pure fantasy. South Korea was poorer than the North until the 1980's.


Japan developed all of Korea. Soviet Union ruined North Korea. Let’s make it clear..


Holy fuck you know literally nothing of history lol. The Soviet Union helped make North Korea a very well off nation economically, the North only became poor when the ComBloc began to collapse and it began hyper-militarization as a self preservation mechanism.
Greco-Roman Polytheist
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON
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Posts: 736
Founded: Feb 19, 2019
Corporate Police State

Postby TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:22 pm

United Chinese Communes wrote:
TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON wrote:
Independence movements in Indochina also later fought the French.

Yes, because they were both terrible. Europeans doing bad things doesn't excuse the Japanese doing bad things.


That's not what I was talking about. I was mentioning how Japanese troops after the war helped Indochinese independence movements.
A proud Conservative.
#MAGA
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