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Can Homophobia Be Justified?

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:07 am

Nope. Same with racism or any other form of bigotry against a group of people who have no control over what group they are a part of.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:13 am

Not without shitty logic, like "gay people have HIV." Homophobia is fucking stupid, like oh no some guy's were doing stuff that men usually only do with women, cry me a river. Idk why people are so concerned about two men having sex. It doesn't even affect you, so why the heck would you care that a man loves a man or woman loves a woman, something that has happened since the dawn of time? My view on the whole thing is "piss off and leave the gays alone."
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:17 am

Adamede wrote:Nope. Same with racism or any other form of bigotry against a group of people who have no control over what group they are a part of.


Racism: Losing your cool because someone has a different skintone than you or differs in appearance in some way (i added that part on due to the fact people are racist to Arabs and at least half of Arabs don't have that different of a skintone from whites, nor do East Asian people who were also hated at one time by many people).

Sexism: Forcing people to follow roles you established for them based on their genitalia.

Homophobia: Losing sleep thinking about the fact that some people are attracted to people of their own gender and worrying that they may be doing the thing with each other.

Transphobia: Being afraid that the transformers are actually real and will one day do battle in your town, reducing the entire city to rubble and killing your family. Usually translates into people running away when they see a bright colored car or large truck.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:23 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Adamede wrote:Nope. Same with racism or any other form of bigotry against a group of people who have no control over what group they are a part of.


Racism: Losing your cool because someone has a different skintone than you or differs in appearance in some way (i added that part on due to the fact people are racist to Arabs and at least half of Arabs don't have that different of a skintone from whites, nor do East Asian people who were also hated at one time by many people).

Sexism: Forcing people to follow roles you established for them based on their genitalia.

Homophobia: Losing sleep thinking about the fact that some people are attracted to people of their own gender and worrying that they may be doing the thing with each other.

Transphobia: Being afraid that the transformers are actually real and will one day do battle in your town, reducing the entire city to rubble and killing your family. Usually translates into people running away when they see a bright colored car or large truck.


Literally every religion: Just don’t be an *sshole.
Followers of said religions:
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Last edited by Insaanistan on Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:25 am

Insaanistan wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Racism: Losing your cool because someone has a different skintone than you or differs in appearance in some way (i added that part on due to the fact people are racist to Arabs and at least half of Arabs don't have that different of a skintone from whites, nor do East Asian people who were also hated at one time by many people).

Sexism: Forcing people to follow roles you established for them based on their genitalia.

Homophobia: Losing sleep thinking about the fact that some people are attracted to people of their own gender and worrying that they may be doing the thing with each other.

Transphobia: Being afraid that the transformers are actually real and will one day do battle in your town, reducing the entire city to rubble and killing your family. Usually translates into people running away when they see a bright colored car or large truck.


Literally every religion: Just don’t be an *sshole.
Followers of said religions:
Image


"Don't be a dick challenge. Ready set go. Oh fuck I already lost. Dang."
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:34 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:
Literally every religion: Just don’t be an *sshole.
Followers of said religions:
Image


"Don't be a dick challenge. Ready set go. Oh fuck I already lost. Dang."

:lol2:
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Saint Arsenio
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Postby Saint Arsenio » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:46 am

This thread isn't as bad as I thought it was going to be (which is a good thing).

Anyway, no. Homophobia can never be justified.
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National Capitalist United States
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Postby National Capitalist United States » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:00 am

Disgraces wrote:
Picairn wrote:Did I hear a Freudian slip?

No, I believe homosexuality is a mental illness (not that it's a bad thing, obviously), and I think it should be common sense.

It's not mental illness.
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National Capitalist United States
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Postby National Capitalist United States » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:06 am

An-Tanwir wrote:
Furthermore, slurs and discriminatory language serve a purpose beyond simply making someone feel bad for cutting you off in traffic. Slurs are the "gateway drug" to further discrimination; they allow hateful people to test the waters, to see whether the people around them will resist their efforts at discrimination. If a fascist says the n word and nobody calls them out on it, they feel safe and comfortable going a bit further, moving ever closer towards physical confrontation. Likewise, if there is pushback against their usage of slurs, they know the people around them aren't going to tolerate and stand by as they harass minorities.

I understand calling out people on what they say.

I do not understand why we need to ban the slurs from being said in public. Like restricting speech is cringe and unbased
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Ainland
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Postby Ainland » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:14 am

I don't think it's accurate to say that homosexuality is a mental illness. Clearly sexual attraction is innate, and although a 'gay gene' has not been identified, brain differences have been observed between heterosexual and homosexual people, suggesting sexual orientation is determined at birth, as opposed to being influenced by any life factors.

Same-sex attraction could be said to be some sort of deficiency, or error, in terms of the fact that DNA life is naturally predisposed to reproduce itself and multiply. However this does not mean it is an 'illness', just like people with no or low sexual attraction aren't mentally ill. Similarly people who are heterosexual but unable or unwilling to reproduce, could be regarded as having a similar deficiency or error, in terms of the drive to multiply, but are not said to have an illness.

And none of this actually has any relevance to whether it is justifiable to be homophobic. Homosexual people, just like asexual people, and people who can't reproduce, have every right to a fulfilling life. And what consenting adults do in private, is really none of our concern. Again, homosexuality literally tells you absolutely nothing about a person, other than their private sexual preference. It is irrelevant to any other factor of their character or personality.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:32 am

National Capitalist United States wrote:
An-Tanwir wrote:

I understand calling out people on what they say.

I do not understand why we need to ban the slurs from being said in public. Like restricting speech is cringe and unbased


Restricting speech is a slippery slope to having your speech restricted, and enforcement of said speech bans should NOT be trusted to be carried out for virtuous reasons by a capitalist nationstate.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:35 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Picairn wrote:They are, actually. Religious influence on the world is fading fast. You are fighting a losing battle.


It's really not though. Christianity and Islam are exploding in size in up and coming areas and while Christianity is fading in the west not all those people are becoming atheists, many are just turning to different religions. Asian faiths (Buddhism etc), various forms of paganism, Islam etc etc are doing well in the States for example.


The only way that someone could say that religious influence is fading fast is if they take Western Europe's secular politics and somehow think it extends to the entire world.
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Loeje
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Postby Loeje » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:39 am

Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:I just know that I don't always feel like it's harmful to me. It could be different for other people, and in that case it is wrong in that situation.

No, it never really is. It’s hatred towards someone for being who they are. It’s deeply harmful. That you’re excusing a bigot because they’re sometimes act nice doesn’t change that.

Most of the time it is harmful. But if someone actually really cares about you as a person, I don't really see any harm in them. As long as they still respect who you are.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:48 am

Palmyrion wrote:just overturn lawrence v texas and obergefell v hodges

The sodomy statute was struck down in Texas. Regarding Obergefell v Hodges, same-sex marriage is now federally legal. The court held that the right to marry is protected by the Due Process clause.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:49 am

Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:No, it never really is. It’s hatred towards someone for being who they are. It’s deeply harmful. That you’re excusing a bigot because they’re sometimes act nice doesn’t change that.

Most of the time it is harmful. But if someone actually really cares about you as a person, I don't really see any harm in them. As long as they still respect who you are.


You can hurt people you care about, even when you mean well. I do think it's a fine line to walk. (Going back to what I believe is the start of this thread in tet). I do think it is possible, but to give a nod to Helion, it is hard to pull off.
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:55 am

No. And I am so sick of the way homophobes continue to play the victim long after they have so obviously miserably lost this cultural debate.

"I mean, I mean, I- I- I mean- J-Just because I don't approve of the gays, that doesn't mean I'm doing something shitty, right? I'm still a good little noodle just like I was considered twenty years ago? Right? Right?" Wrong. Get over it. If you're so uncomfortable with how poorly these views reflect on you and undermine your self-image as a good person, maybe instead of constantly trying in vain to argue and bargain with and guilt trip the mirror in front of you, you should wash your own damn face.
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Loeje
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Postby Loeje » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:59 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Loeje wrote:Most of the time it is harmful. But if someone actually really cares about you as a person, I don't really see any harm in them. As long as they still respect who you are.


You can hurt people you care about, even when you mean well. I do think it's a fine line to walk. (Going back to what I believe is the start of this thread in tet). I do think it is possible, but to give a nod to Helion, it is hard to pull off.

Sure, it's hard, but it's possible. And I think that matters.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:01 am

Loeje wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
You can hurt people you care about, even when you mean well. I do think it's a fine line to walk. (Going back to what I believe is the start of this thread in tet). I do think it is possible, but to give a nod to Helion, it is hard to pull off.

Sure, it's hard, but it's possible. And I think that matters.

Agreed.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:01 am

Not really an excuse in today's day and age. Why should anyone care if you like men, women, or both?
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:02 am

Giovenith wrote:No. And I am so sick of the way homophobes continue to play the victim long after they have so obviously miserably lost this cultural debate.

"I mean, I mean, I- I- I mean- J-Just because I don't approve of the gays, that doesn't mean I'm doing something shitty, right? I'm still a good little noodle just like I was considered twenty years ago? Right? Right?" Wrong. Get over it. If you're so uncomfortable with how poorly these views reflect on you and undermine your self-image as a good person, maybe instead of constantly trying in vain to argue and bargain with and guilt trip the mirror in front of you, you should wash your own damn face.

Is the implication of this that the morality of prejudice is entirely dependent upon the dominant cultural ideas about that prejudice?
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Alfonzo
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Postby Alfonzo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:04 am

lol wat.

no it isn't.
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Iarann Grudaidh
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Postby Iarann Grudaidh » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:11 am

I want to put my thoughts into this by clearly explaining why homophobia is completely unjustified.

By stating stuff such as "traumatic experiences with LGBTQ" and citing such as an excuse for bigotry, hatred or harshness to a minority is like saying you hate all women due to trauma you had with one woman or a small group of women. By stating "all women suck" because you had a negative experience with a woman, you actively oppress and harm every woman out there. The same goes for people of colour - hereby shortened to POC. If you have a bad experience with one POC or a group of people of colour, stereotyping, belittling and throwing obscene words at them is still unacceptable.

What we need to realise is that pinpointing one person within a minority group as a representation of every person who is of that minority is damaging to that community and only causes harm.

To go to a more extreme scenario, hitler was a white male, however, not every white male is a nazi or mass murderer, it'd be unfair and unreasonable for jewish people to be horrified at the presence of a white male, or using their skin colour and sex as an excuse to belittle or harm them. The same goes for homophobes.

If you are genuinely frightened about the presence of a gay person, please do realise you're actively stereotyping them and putting them into a mental box of your design. it is unhealthy, cruel and unnecessary. Gay people simply want to love someone of the same gender, you have no place or grounds (religious or not) to judge, condemn or harm them for that.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:11 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Giovenith wrote:No. And I am so sick of the way homophobes continue to play the victim long after they have so obviously miserably lost this cultural debate.

"I mean, I mean, I- I- I mean- J-Just because I don't approve of the gays, that doesn't mean I'm doing something shitty, right? I'm still a good little noodle just like I was considered twenty years ago? Right? Right?" Wrong. Get over it. If you're so uncomfortable with how poorly these views reflect on you and undermine your self-image as a good person, maybe instead of constantly trying in vain to argue and bargain with and guilt trip the mirror in front of you, you should wash your own damn face.

Is the implication of this that the morality of prejudice is entirely dependent upon the dominant cultural ideas about that prejudice?

It is. Cultural ideas are not fixed.
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:18 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Giovenith wrote:No. And I am so sick of the way homophobes continue to play the victim long after they have so obviously miserably lost this cultural debate.

"I mean, I mean, I- I- I mean- J-Just because I don't approve of the gays, that doesn't mean I'm doing something shitty, right? I'm still a good little noodle just like I was considered twenty years ago? Right? Right?" Wrong. Get over it. If you're so uncomfortable with how poorly these views reflect on you and undermine your self-image as a good person, maybe instead of constantly trying in vain to argue and bargain with and guilt trip the mirror in front of you, you should wash your own damn face.

Is the implication of this that the morality of prejudice is entirely dependent upon the dominant cultural ideas about that prejudice?


No, the implication is that this debate has been had in both the public and private circuit an approximate quad-shit-million times and the homophobes have failed each and every time to provide any good reason why their views are justified, which is why they now have to resort to attempting to guilt trip the rest of us into tolerating their bigotry because doing otherwise makes them feel bad about themselves (as if their good image is something that they are entitled to), and even then the best excuse they can muster for why the hell we should do so is, "Well... I don't... do anything about those views..." essentially admitting the worthlessness of their views in any pragmatic or substantial sense.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:20 am

Giovenith wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Is the implication of this that the morality of prejudice is entirely dependent upon the dominant cultural ideas about that prejudice?


No, the implication is that this debate has been had in both the public and private circuit an approximate quad-shit-million times and the homophobes have failed each and every time to provide any good reason why their views are justified, which is why they now have to resort to attempting to guilt trip the rest of us into tolerating their bigotry because doing otherwise makes them feel bad about themselves (as if their good image is something that they are entitled to), and even then the best excuse they can muster for why the hell we should do so is, "Well... I don't... do anything about those views..." essentially admitting the worthlessness of their views in any pragmatic or substantial sense.

That's true in the Western world, but there's a whole other world out there of political realities.
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