Can Homophobia Be Justified?

[Daarwyrth]

If the religious were perhaps more tolerant and loving of others, the others might be less hostile and angry at the religious. Aren't most religions about preaching the unconditional love of God? And to be kind and good to your fellows? How about the religious start practicing what they preach?

It’s rhetorical. I’m saying, if they’re not a dick to you don’t be a dick to them

Well then, I'll wait for the day religions stop telling me homosexuality is a sin, and then I'll stop saying religion is a pretty pink bow put on the head of bigotry and hate

[The New California Republic]

if they’re not a dick to you don’t be a dick to them

The problem is that on balance they are though, i.e. most of the dickery has been from the religious aimed at homosexuals, rather than the other way round.

[The Remote Islands]

No, and this thread's gonna get locked at some point.

[Odreria]

It’s rhetorical. I’m saying, if they’re not a dick to you don’t be a dick to them

Well then, I'll wait for the day religions stop telling me homosexuality is a sin, and then I'll stop saying religion is a pretty pink bow put on the head of bigotry and hate

Neither of those is being a dick tbh

Unless they’re like screaming it in your face obvs

[Daarwyrth]

Well then, I'll wait for the day religions stop telling me homosexuality is a sin, and then I'll stop saying religion is a pretty pink bow put on the head of bigotry and hate

Neither of those is being a dick tbh

Well, I'd say calling my sexual orientation a sin (thus morally reprehensible because 'sin' is an artificial construct created by man to exert control over society) is pretty much a dick move, but hey, to each their own!

[The New California Republic]

1st Admendment

From the site FAQ if you'd care to read it:

It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=faq#etiquette

[J o J]

Yes. If the God of your religion, an all powerful being, threatens to send you to hell for homosexuality, and this is all you have known since you were a child, then yes, it can be justified because when people genuinely believe in and follow a religion that is anti-gay, they thoroughly believe that if they are homosexual then they will live a life of eternal damnation and suffering in hell. As long as freedom of religion is upheld, then this will coincide with disapproval of homosexuality, as the three largest religions are the three Abrahamic religions, which all denounce homosexuality. And on that note, for those who follow religions that disapprove of homosexuality, it is misguided to call them bigots because they are simply doing as their God commands.

So, If you want tolerance, then start tolerating. Religious “discrimination” isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

This isn't the United States of America. The way freedom of religion works in your country doesn't work in other countries.
They are bigots. Religious people are justified in their homophobia thanks to their religion ideology only insofar as national socialists were justified in their antisemitism because of their ideology. So if you're willing to defend that position I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on why Jews stole the victory of the German Reich from the German people.
Homosexuals do not have an ideology that actively descriminates against religious people, as written in a supposed holy book of the homosexual ideology. It is religious people who have an ideology that actively seeks to descriminate and call all sorts of insults and names homosexuals, as written in their holy book of religious ideology. Therefore, don't equate their tolerating of people who have nothing against them with our supposed "duty" to tolerate people who tell us we're f*****s and that we will burn in hell and that if they'd have their way we'd all be shot. Cause it's so not the same thing. I have no tolerance for intolerance.

Ah yes, relating Christians to Nazis. Typical. I’m used to that. I certainly don’t approve of anti Semitic nonsense but you’re going to try to argue I am simply because I follow the word of my God. Alrighty.

Anyways, you don’t understand the difference between a religion and an ideology. A religion is something you’re taught is factual and something you have likely been taught since you were born. It is something you are told is enforced by an all powerful and all knowing deity, and as such you are in no place to refute their religious texts. It is a way of living, established by a holy and supernatural God. An ideology is something created by man himself, cast out of the flawed mind of humans, and as such just about every ideology has its flaws. Some more then others. (I’m looking at you, Nazis and communists). You are almost always given the path to choose your ideology and way of thinking, but with a religion you usually aren’t.

Furthermore, I’m not saying you have to like it, I’m saying you have to deal with it because they’re not going anywhere. Religions are massive and encompass huge portions of the world’s population. Most of them who follow the anti-gay religions don’t go around screaming slurs at people, they just want you to leave them and their religion alone. How do I know? Because that’s me. I believe in the Lord, and I do as he says. I don’t go around using slurs or harassing gay people, I respect other people’s decisions and I don’t try to force my beliefs on them even if I don’t agree. I just want you to realize that there’s no bigotry in me not wanting to go to hell. You might want to say “oh but that’s an anecdotal example, you have no empirical evidence that all Christians are like that!” My whole community sees it the same way. We’ve had a discussion like this before. Everybody in my church and every other church I’ve been to are fine folks who just do as the Lord tells them and go about their lives. They don’t hate you. They just don’t agree with you. The media has forged a selective and targeted narrative to portray Christians as far right and bigoted people when that is not at all the majority. Those people are the minority and we see them as jerks as much as anybody else.

I ask you this, how can somebody who simply refuses to make a cake because he doesn’t want to go to hell be equated to a total bigot and a Nazi? I’m really eager to hear such fowl logic.

[New Visayan Islands]

I am locking this thread pending a detailed trawl. We appreciate your patience.

"guided by reasoning"
where's the reasoning tho lol

Insight as riveting as I would expect from one who lists their pronouns

those articles didn't really address any point tbh
you point, if there was one, was utterly incoherent

Dunning Kruger incarnate.

When did he say that?

He didn't. It's a strawman.

"muh hoimosexuality is harmful to reproduction"

"hurting the families' prospect at genetic continuation"

Agreed. Kin selection by gay uncles doesn't exist.

"rely on a influx of converts"

no thanks, this isn't even an argument

What is the Replication Crisis?

literal twitter-tier argumentation

Sometimes I can't resist a cheap flame. It gives me a chuckle. Back to the argument at hand...

no
we can trace these things

You're absolutely right, we can. I offered supporting articles for my argument to trace it. whereas you have offered...

it is not

he is not, but it is not anyway

Simply assertions without supporting evidence.

it did
that's not actually something you can debate
rome is the cause of pretty much everything in european history that followed it, just by setting the base

And then in the same breath, declared that LGBT exists in a vacuum independent of the evidence I cited, while insisting that everything else in the world is cause and effect.

You, sir, are intellectually dishonest.

Good day!

I see you're new to the forums; these are but a sample of the many posts that breach the Rules. Indeed, I'm seeing flamebait, flaming, and trolling composing a good chunk of your posting history; at this point, while I am loath to do this to a nation that was founded only today, we're dropping the niceties and going straight to *** one day off for aforementioned offenses. *** You may file a GHR if you wish to appeal.

Why should the religious lick the boots of homosexuals?

As I said: Homosexuals do not have an ideology that actively descriminates against religious people, as written in a supposed holy book of the homosexual ideology. It is religious people who have an ideology that actively seeks to descriminate and call all sorts of insults and names homosexuals, as written in their holy book of religious ideology. Therefore, don't equate their tolerating of people who have nothing against them with our supposed "duty" to tolerate people who tell us we're f*****s and that we will burn in hell and that if they'd have their way we'd all be shot. Cause it's so not the same thing. I have no tolerance for intolerance.
We're not calling on religious people to "lick our boots". We're calling on them to act like decent human beings and treat us as fellow human beings.

How come humans reproduce heterosexually, then?

This must be a troll take. Nobody can say this stuff and be intellectually honest.

Not all religious people are raging homophobes; claiming they all are is considered trolling. While we're at it, if you suspect someone is trolling, the best course of action is to report it in Moderation; trollnaming can be considered flaming. Take a *** warning for trolling and flaming. ***

Insight as riveting as I would expect from one who lists their pronouns

oh ya i forgot that only dumb idiots let other people know how to refer to them

I suggest you tone it down.

That is like fearing all blacks because a black man once stole your purse. Or fearing all cops because one once sat on your uncles neck until he suffocated. Fearing all Catholics because you were raped by a priest as a child.

Understandable. Human. But not justified.

You get to choose to be a cop or a priest, and the police are fundamentally racist and the catholic church is filled with sex criminals.

I get what you're saying and the point you're trying to make is good but those two are false equivalency.

We know who you are, and we are not amused. While I am loath to make a ruling on this particular post, as the guy trawling this particular thread I suggest you take the *** one day off for trolling *** I am issuing you to read and review the Rules. Now.

Everyone else: we're watching. It would be in everyone's best interests to keep any arguments for or against homophobia from devolving into egregious mudslinging. I am unlocking this thread.

Thanks!
NVI

[The New California Republic]

Well...with that out of the way, let's continue...

[Picairn]

Well...with that out of the way, let's continue...

Back to the regular programming... Let me fire the first row of cannonballs.

Anyways, you don’t understand the difference between a religion and an ideology. A religion is something you’re taught is factual and something you have likely been taught since you were born. It is something you are told is enforced by an all powerful and all knowing deity, and as such you are in no place to refute their religious texts. It is a way of living, established by a holy and supernatural God. An ideology is something created by man himself, cast out of the flawed mind of humans, and as such just about every ideology has its flaws. Some more then others. (I’m looking at you, Nazis and communists). You are almost always given the path to choose your ideology and way of thinking, but with a religion you usually aren’t.

Sounds like a cult if you are not allowed the freedom to believe in religion. Also where is your proof that God wrote the texts? We don't even have evidence that God exists. (Not gonna revive that godawful debate thread, again.)

Furthermore, I’m not saying you have to like it, I’m saying you have to deal with it because they’re not going anywhere.

They are, actually. Religious influence on the world is fading fast. You are fighting a losing battle.

Religions are massive and encompass huge portions of the world’s population. Most of them who follow the anti-gay religions don’t go around screaming slurs at people, they just want you to leave them and their religion alone. How do I know? Because that’s me. I believe in the Lord, and I do as he says. I don’t go around using slurs or harassing gay people, I respect other people’s decisions and I don’t try to force my beliefs on them even if I don’t agree. I just want you to realize that there’s no bigotry in me not wanting to go to hell. You might want to say “oh but that’s an anecdotal example, you have no empirical evidence that all Christians are like that!” My whole community sees it the same way. We’ve had a discussion like this before. Everybody in my church and every other church I’ve been to are fine folks who just do as the Lord tells them and go about their lives. They don’t hate you. They just don’t agree with you. The media has forged a selective and targeted narrative to portray Christians as far right and bigoted people when that is not at all the majority. Those people are the minority and we see them as jerks as much as anybody else.

You say you "just" don't agree with homosexuals and their ways of living and yet earlier in the thread you wanted homosexuals to tolerate religious bigotry.

So much for leaving other people alone.

[Caraani]

As I said: Homosexuals do not have an ideology that actively descriminates against religious people, as written in a supposed holy book of the homosexual ideology. It is religious people who have an ideology that actively seeks to descriminate and call all sorts of insults and names homosexuals, as written in their holy book of religious ideology. Therefore, don't equate their tolerating of people who have nothing against them with our supposed "duty" to tolerate people who tell us we're f*****s and that we will burn in hell and that if they'd have their way we'd all be shot. Cause it's so not the same thing. I have no tolerance for intolerance.
We're not calling on religious people to "lick our boots". We're calling on them to act like decent human beings and treat us as fellow human beings.

This must be a troll take. Nobody can say this stuff and be intellectually honest.

Not all religious people are raging homophobes; claiming they all are is considered trolling. While we're at it, if you suspect someone is trolling, the best course of action is to report it in Moderation; trollnaming can be considered flaming. Take a *** warning for trolling and flaming. ***

Thanks!
NVI

I'd be glad if you'd show me where I implied all religious people are raging homophobes. Then again I presume it is easy to discuss about how what I said might be trolling while the second biggest religion in the world, with more than a billion people following it, sees the vast majority of its followers holding views on homosexuality ranging from the benign "I'm tolerant, I just see them as depraved sinners who are little less than beasts." to the malign "Let's just throw them off a building, they shouldn't be allowed to live." As shown: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020 ... -persists/
As I said, it's not all religious people, but large portions of the religious population across the globe do hold homophobic views.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Nope.

[The New California Republic]

I'd be glad if you'd show me where I implied all religious people are raging homophobes. Then again I presume it is easy to discuss about how what I said might be trolling while the second biggest religion in the world, with more than a billion people following it, sees the vast majority of its followers holding views on homosexuality ranging from the benign "I'm tolerant, I just see them as depraved sinners who are little less than beasts." to the malign "Let's just throw them off a building, they shouldn't be allowed to live." As shown: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020 ... -persists/
As I said, it's not all religious people, but large portions of the religious population across the globe do hold homophobic views.

Btw if you want to appeal it then you do it in the thread where it was reported, rather than here.

[Washington Resistance Army]

They are, actually. Religious influence on the world is fading fast. You are fighting a losing battle.

It's really not though. Christianity and Islam are exploding in size in up and coming areas and while Christianity is fading in the west not all those people are becoming atheists, many are just turning to different religions. Asian faiths (Buddhism etc), various forms of paganism, Islam etc etc are doing well in the States for example.

[Ainland]

To be clear, Christianity is no justification for homophobia.

Firstly, let's be clear on the Christian view of homosexuality and homophobia. Here are some quotes from Pope Francis, the leader of the Catholic church, the largest Christian denomination (by a long way):

"If they [gay priests] accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn't be marginalized. The tendency [same-sex attraction] is not the problem... they're our brothers."

"We have to find a way to help that father or that mother to stand by their [LGBT] son or daughter."

“Homosexual people have a right to be in a family. They are children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it. What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered."

And such sentiments are shared by Christians, with a majority of Catholics in the USA plus every Western European country, supporting gay marriage.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/02/how-catholics-around-the-world-see-same-sex-marriage-homosexuality/

Support is also consistently high among many of (but not all) of the smaller denominations.

There are Christians who believe certain behaviours are sinful, such as certain sexual acts, sex outside of marriage, etc. But this is no reason to judge certain people differently, to make assumptions about people's behaviour, or to judge one particular sin worse than others. Even the most conservative Christian apologists seem to have a clear understanding of this difference.

[Washington Resistance Army]

To be clear, Christianity is no justification for homophobia.

Firstly, let's be clear on the Christian view of homosexuality and homophobia. Here are some quotes from Pope Francis, the leader of the Catholic church, the largest Christian denomination (by a long way):

"If they [gay priests] accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn't be marginalized. The tendency [same-sex attraction] is not the problem... they're our brothers."

"We have to find a way to help that father or that mother to stand by their [LGBT] son or daughter."

“Homosexual people have a right to be in a family. They are children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it. What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered."

And such sentiments are shared by Christians, with a majority of Catholics in the USA plus every Western European country, supporting gay marriage.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/02/how-catholics-around-the-world-see-same-sex-marriage-homosexuality/

Support is also consistently high among many of (but not all) of the smaller denominations.

There are Christians who believe certain behaviours are sinful, such as certain sexual acts, sex outside of marriage, etc. But this is no reason to judge certain people differently, to make assumptions about people's behaviour, or to judge one particular sin worse than others. Even the most conservative Christian apologists seem to have a clear understanding of this difference.

That is a terrible understanding of what the Pope meant and why people need to dig further than headlines. He said people shouldn't discriminate against LGBT people and that secular states should let them get married in civil unions. While yes that is a bit of a shift in rhetoric the Church's position on homosexuality has not changed. Acting on it is still a sin.

[Ainland]

As for the cake issue, it's really very simple and it amazes me how people manage to make this seem complicated.

Any business can refuse to provide service to anyone they like, for any reason or no reason. As long as they are not discriminating on the grounds of a protected characteristic (race, disability, sexual orientation, etc.). This is very clear, is fair, and works just fine.

[Cultural Posadism]

Any prejudice is unjustifiable almost by definition. It can be understandable, as in we can figure out why a prejudice is there, but that can never make it just.

[The Alma Mater]

As for the cake issue, it's really very simple and it amazes me how people manage to make this seem complicated.

Any business can refuse to provide service to anyone they like, for any reason or no reason. As long as they are not discriminating on the grounds of a protected characteristic (race, disability, sexual orientation, etc.). This is very clear, is fair, and works just fine.

With the cake issue I will go one step further. Or back.

Refusing to sell a gay, black, woman etc. a cake from the shelf on the grounds of them being gay, black, woman etc- bad

Refusing to create a work of unique art depicting something one fundamententally disagrees with - can be bad, but IS allowable.

So a bakery refusing to sell their standard cakes to a gay couple: bad. Said bakery refusing to create a magnificent and unique wedding cake for a gay marriage: their right.

[Ainland]

To be clear, Christianity is no justification for homophobia.

That is a terrible understanding of what the Pope meant and why people need to dig further than headlines. He said people shouldn't discriminate against LGBT people and that secular states should let them get married in civil unions. While yes that is a bit of a shift in rhetoric the Church's position on homosexuality has not changed. Acting on it is still a sin.

Where is the "terrible understanding"? In fact, I think I was explicitly clear about this - that there are Christians who believe that there are specific behaviours which are sinful, such as certain sexual acts, sex outside of marriage, and so on. But that it no justification for being judgemental towards, or make assumptions about, certain people, or to regard a certain sin as particular worse than others. I'd be very keen for you to clarify the understanding as you see it, as I really feel I was abundantly clear about this. Indeed, the lack of understanding about the distinction - which seems so clear to the Pope and many conservative apologists - is the source of my frustration.

If I were to be cynical, I would think you have read the quotes, and made an assumption about what I was going to say, without properly reading the rest of my post. Which would render your comment about digging further than the headlines somewhat ironic.

[Esalia]

It can be (for lack of a better word) understandable (e.g if you lived in a homophobic society/grew up with a homophobic family, you might have some homophobic beliefs because of that), but as with the vast majority of bigotry, it is not justified, and it will never be justified.

[Team Lennox]

No homophobia can't be justified.

[Caraani]

This isn't the United States of America. The way freedom of religion works in your country doesn't work in other countries.
They are bigots. Religious people are justified in their homophobia thanks to their religion ideology only insofar as national socialists were justified in their antisemitism because of their ideology. So if you're willing to defend that position I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on why Jews stole the victory of the German Reich from the German people.
Homosexuals do not have an ideology that actively descriminates against religious people, as written in a supposed holy book of the homosexual ideology. It is religious people who have an ideology that actively seeks to descriminate and call all sorts of insults and names homosexuals, as written in their holy book of religious ideology. Therefore, don't equate their tolerating of people who have nothing against them with our supposed "duty" to tolerate people who tell us we're f*****s and that we will burn in hell and that if they'd have their way we'd all be shot. Cause it's so not the same thing. I have no tolerance for intolerance.

Ah yes, relating Christians to Nazis. Typical. I’m used to that. I certainly don’t approve of anti Semitic nonsense but you’re going to try to argue I am simply because I follow the word of my God. Alrighty.

Anyways, you don’t understand the difference between a religion and an ideology. A religion is something you’re taught is factual and something you have likely been taught since you were born. It is something you are told is enforced by an all powerful and all knowing deity, and as such you are in no place to refute their religious texts. It is a way of living, established by a holy and supernatural God. An ideology is something created by man himself, cast out of the flawed mind of humans, and as such just about every ideology has its flaws. Some more then others. (I’m looking at you, Nazis and communists). You are almost always given the path to choose your ideology and way of thinking, but with a religion you usually aren’t.

Furthermore, I’m not saying you have to like it, I’m saying you have to deal with it because they’re not going anywhere. Religions are massive and encompass huge portions of the world’s population. Most of them who follow the anti-gay religions don’t go around screaming slurs at people, they just want you to leave them and their religion alone. How do I know? Because that’s me. I believe in the Lord, and I do as he says. I don’t go around using slurs or harassing gay people, I respect other people’s decisions and I don’t try to force my beliefs on them even if I don’t agree. I just want you to realize that there’s no bigotry in me not wanting to go to hell. You might want to say “oh but that’s an anecdotal example, you have no empirical evidence that all Christians are like that!” My whole community sees it the same way. We’ve had a discussion like this before. Everybody in my church and every other church I’ve been to are fine folks who just do as the Lord tells them and go about their lives. They don’t hate you. They just don’t agree with you. The media has forged a selective and targeted narrative to portray Christians as far right and bigoted people when that is not at all the majority. Those people are the minority and we see them as jerks as much as anybody else.

I ask you this, how can somebody who simply refuses to make a cake because he doesn’t want to go to hell be equated to a total bigot and a Nazi? I’m really eager to hear such fowl logic.

Ah yes, relating Christians to Nazis. Typical. I’m used to that. I certainly don’t approve of anti Semitic nonsense but you’re going to try to argue I am simply because I follow the word of my God. Alrighty.

You're invited to re-read the two paragraphs where national socialists are mentioned. I don't equate christians to nazis. Playing the victim doesn't help anyone's argument. Neither do I believe that "you're used to that" since the US is hyper far right, so I doubt anyone would attack you for your faith. Lastly, pertaining to this point, I did not imply you're antisemitic, neither was I intending to do so with what I wrote. Again, I advise you re-read the two paragraphs, since you seem to have started reading them with pre-conceived notions and readily jumped on the victimhood trope.

Anyways, you don’t understand the difference between a religion and an ideology...

No. Religion is literally an ideology. I'd be glad to discuss more about this topic after you study a bit of history of religions across the world, and how our society evolved. What you talk about is Faith, which is used by religion. As our society consolidated the ideology on which it was built was religion. It justified the rulers and their class, the order of a polity, going to war and making peace. As for it being a way of living, and something you're taugh since birth, that is literally ideology. You were born in America, so you should know all about it, since you're taught since birth that America is superior and exceptional, that capitalism and democracy are imminent and essential to humanity's survival, and that America is somehow both the last standing true democracy, and the defender of other existing democracies across the world.

An ideology is something created by man himself, cast out of the flawed mind of humans, and as such just about every ideology has its flaws. Some more then others. (I’m looking at you, Nazis and communists). You are almost always given the path to choose your ideology and way of thinking, but with a religion you usually aren’t.

Religion was literally created by humans. Your "christian" (inverted commas because I come from a country that has actually kept a christian faith dating back to the first councils, and hasn't made a split, after a split, after a split. Generally American flavours of Christianity are simply called "Sects" where I'm from. No offense.) religion, which I presume is a protestant sub-branch, is the product of British people who disagreed with amongst themselves after they initially split from the Catholic church, which itself disagreed (for political reasons) with the rest of the patriarchs that traditionally oversaw the theological matters of the religion, a religion officially established only in the late 300s, with a religious book written at least a hundred years after the life of the supposed son of God, whose story is a literal copy of various myths that were circulating across the Eastern Mediterranean region for at least a thousand years. Myths created by men. So no, it is literally an ideology meant to explain the world and the functioning of society and the reason why the present ruler(s) is/are legitimate. As for choosing your ideology/way of thinking, dude, you're literally some funky name protestant sub-group of the larger protestant group which first split during the catholic church, which split from the orthodox, who themselves split off groups such as the Nestorians because they disagreed with what previous councils established. And I assure you this sort of variety of thought is present within Islam, Buddhism and other major religions. So yes, you can choose. You're the literal proof that you can indeed choose the way of thinking.

Furthermore, I’m not saying you have to like it, I’m saying you have to deal with it because they’re not going anywhere. Religions are massive and encompass huge portions of the world’s population. Most of them who follow the anti-gay religions don’t go around screaming slurs at people, they just want you to leave them and their religion alone.

Nobody is saying I have to like it. Nobody is saying you have to like it. I'm not dealing with it. Again, please notice that other countries exist outside your country. If somebody where I'm from descriminates against me based on their religion, they are in the wrong. Most of them who follow the anti-gay religions don't go around screaming slurs at people, cause we hide ourselves. Since you're not gay, I doubt you can tell me how being gay actually is. But I know how it is. I can't hold hands with my boyfriend, we can't do what heterosexuals do. Homophobes don't go around screaming slurs at us cause we are virtually invisible. But whenever there's a pride they literally go around screaming at us. Hell, we need police protection for one dumb march that happens once a year in order to not be beaten to death. So no, they don't scream their slurs cause they don't see us. But when they do see us, they do much more than that. I don't care about your religion, and most gay people don't. You're not the ones who were killed for millennia, we are. By your religious zealots. So don't try to turn this around. It's not "the religious people want you to leave them and their religion alone" it's - we wan't you to stop trying to either kill us or hate us simply for living and blocking our attempts at being equal citizens in the face of law...Or am I missing any example, ANY example of heterosexual religious people being attacked, killed or told that they aren't equal as tax-paying citizens when it comes to the laws of their countries? Cause as far as I can tell, that only happens to us, not to them.

How do I know? Because that’s me. I believe in the Lord, and I do as he says. I don’t go around using slurs or harassing gay people, I respect other people’s decisions and I don’t try to force my beliefs on them even if I don’t agree. I just want you to realize that there’s no bigotry in me not wanting to go to hell.

Colour me surprised, I thought you were actually an atheist. With all due respect, I don't care that you don't do these things, because many people who are religious do, and it only takes a few examples to ruin a person's view of the entire group. That's why, while the vast majority of muslims aren't terrorists, the minuscule number of muslim terrorists have cause many states across the world to take measures that before 90s and the 2000s were unthinkable, such as banning migrants from muslim countries and so on.

The media has forged a selective and targeted narrative to portray Christians as far right and bigoted people when that is not at all the majority. Those people are the minority and we see them as jerks as much as anybody else.

Which media? You watch the media in my country? It's funny, whenever somebody says stuff like this with the implication that we already know which country we're talking about, it's always Americans. Let me know if you wish me to send you a few photos of my country - you know, in case you doubt it exists. I'll let you know that in my country christians aren't portrayed as far right bigoted people, mainly because we aren't as far right as the US is. Maybe that's another reason why we never assume our country is the only one that exists.

I ask you this, how can somebody who simply refuses to make a cake because he doesn’t want to go to hell be equated to a total bigot and a Nazi? I’m really eager to hear such fowl logic.

I ask you this, can you please go back and re-read what I wrote? - If you do refuse to make me a cake on the basis that I am gay, you are a total bigot; and in my country, I can sue you.

[Roegerland]

Well how are you justifying it and to whom? A religious person might say that under the laws of God/the Gods, homosexuality cannot be justified, and that a negative view of it is absolutely justified. Someone else will say the opposite.

I'm not sure of the value of such a question as it's down to your personal views - indeed if that's what we're discussing here.

[Daarwyrth]

Acting on it is still a sin.

And sin is a social construct created by religious men in order to exert control and influence on their respective populaces. Since it is a social construct defined and conceptualised by humans, it is subject to change and should be changed. Then again, philosophy offers several valuable and useful maximes on morality and 'good and bad' and nowadays we have penal codes that determine what is and isn't wrong. As such, the concept of 'sin' is no longer needed as a form of social control, and can therefore be considered as outdated. And thus, 'sin' is no longer a viable justification for homophobia. Not that it ever was, but that is besides the point.