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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:23 pm
by Loeje
Cetacea wrote:No form of discriminatory practice is ever justified and is inherently harmful

That said the scope of the definition needs to be framed so that people who do not discriminate are not labelled homophobic simply because they think its a sin.

Changing the definition would probably solve the problem. Discriminating against people is never justified.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:23 pm
by Prydania
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:
Prydania wrote:Yes, it does.

I said that it doesn't.

Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm
by Strazhnist Tsarus
Prydania wrote:
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:I said that it doesn't.

Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.

What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

Because your definition does not consider the above to be homophobia.
Unless you agree that it isn't. I would be surprised.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm
by Heloin
Loeje wrote:
Cetacea wrote:No form of discriminatory practice is ever justified and is inherently harmful

That said the scope of the definition needs to be framed so that people who do not discriminate are not labelled homophobic simply because they think its a sin.

Changing the definition would probably solve the problem. Discriminating against people is never justified.

Then you agree that homophobia is never justified because it’s never fucking justified Gen.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm
by Middle Barael
Loeje wrote:
Prydania wrote:Yes, it does.

Not in the definition I had in the OP.

I think while Homophobia does not view LGBTQ+ people as lesser (though certainly most homophobes do), it does view them as having lesser rights (less rights to express themselves, marry who they want, etc)


And no it’s never justified, although many homophobes unfortunately have been brainwashed into being homophobic. It still isn’t justified however

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:28 pm
by Heloin
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:
Prydania wrote:Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.

What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

Because your definition does not consider the above to be homophobia.
Unless you agree that it isn't. I would be surprised.

I don’t hate you, I hate who you are and the culture that supports you. That makes it so much better now does it?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 pm
by Prydania
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:
Prydania wrote:Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.

What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

First off, culture doesn't have anything to do with it. Do you think every LGBTQ+ person is neck deep in "LGBT culture"? 'cause we're not. I'm so removed from that, that you'd think I was straight if you had a cup of coffee with me.

Secondly...
"What do you call a disdain against LGBT...but not against gay individuals. ?"
I'll make this simple for you. Being gay, a lesbian, bi, transgendered, queer, etc... it's not a choice? You understand that? So since it's not a choice then if you're "against LGBT" then you are against part of what I am. Therefore you think I'm lesser because of it.

And if you think I'm lesser then you can't possibly respect me as a person.

Or to draw on an earlier post I made in this thread...
Why are you expending so much mental energy to justify your bigotry? Surely there are better uses for your time and energy then thinking of justifications to hate your fellow human beings?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 pm
by Loeje
Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:Changing the definition would probably solve the problem. Discriminating against people is never justified.

Then you agree that homophobia is never justified because it’s never fucking justified Gen.

I definitely don't agree with it. But there are people who are actually trying to be helpful and I don't think it would be right to blame them.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:31 pm
by Tsarus 2142
Heloin wrote:
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

Because your definition does not consider the above to be homophobia.
Unless you agree that it isn't. I would be surprised.

I don’t hate you, I hate who you are and the culture that supports you. That makes it so much better now does it?

Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:32 pm
by Picairn
Tsarus 2142 wrote:
Heloin wrote:I don’t hate you, I hate who you are and the culture that supports you. That makes it so much better now does it?

Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.

Homophobic alert! Why do you believe gays "deserve better"?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:33 pm
by Tsarus 2142
Prydania wrote:
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

First off, culture doesn't have anything to do with it. Do you think every LGBTQ+ person is neck deep in "LGBT culture"? 'cause we're not. I'm so removed from that, that you'd think I was straight if you had a cup of coffee with me.

Secondly...
"What do you call a disdain against LGBT...but not against gay individuals. ?"
I'll make this simple for you. Being gay, a lesbian, bi, transgendered, queer, etc... it's not a choice? You understand that? So since it's not a choice then if you're "against LGBT" then you are against part of what I am. Therefore you think I'm lesser because of it.

And if you think I'm lesser then you can't possibly respect me as a person.

Or to draw on an earlier post I made in this thread...
Why are you expending so much mental energy to justify your bigotry? Surely there are better uses for your time and energy then thinking of justifications to hate your fellow human beings?


By LGBT, again, I mean the culture. Apologies for the misunderstanding... !
And. Again, I never said I hated gays or lgbt individuals. I judge everyone on an individual basis.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:33 pm
by The Reformed American Republic
To answer the OP's question. Hating people just because they're gay, bi, trans, etc is NOT justified at all. People getting annoyed that certain symbols are being shoved in their face every two seconds and they're basically forced to kiss someone's ring, then yes, hostility to that is justified. Reminds me when I would see regions get raided on gameside (such as The Embassy), and the raiders shove a hideous trans flag in everyone's face. Probably a case of classical conditioning (I strongly opposed many of those raids) but still.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:34 pm
by Tsarus 2142
Picairn wrote:
Tsarus 2142 wrote:Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.

Homophobic alert! Why do you believe gays "deserve better"?

Deserve better=deserve a culture that does not promote immorality.
And again that is just an example.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:34 pm
by Heloin
Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:Then you agree that homophobia is never justified because it’s never fucking justified Gen.

I definitely don't agree with it. But there are people who are actually trying to be helpful and I don't think it would be right to blame them.

No they’re not. They’re trying to make your life worse. If it was up to them you would suffer. I’ve lived in a society where the bigots you’re calling “helpful” have had power. They become butchers.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:37 pm
by Loeje
Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:I definitely don't agree with it. But there are people who are actually trying to be helpful and I don't think it would be right to blame them.

No they’re not. They’re trying to make your life worse. If it was up to them you would suffer. I’ve lived in a society where the bigots you’re calling “helpful” have had power. They become butchers.

Wanting anyone to suffer is unjustifiable. And that's what I already said. That is wrong.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:38 pm
by Prydania
Tsarus 2142 wrote:Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.

Again, do you think every LGBTQ+ is into what could be described as "mainstream gay culture"? Plenty aren't.

Secondly, as a gay guy who finds "mainstream gay culture" annoying...get over yourself, will you? It's not my cup of tea but who am I to tell people how to live their lives? Who are you to impose your view of morality on people? Behind all of the tropes of gay culture you ultimately have a culture that supports people being who they are and come together to mutually uplift people. Sure, maybe its sexual morals aren't to YOUR liking, but you have no right to impose your view of morality on anyone else.

And for you to think you know what's better for another adult capable of making their own decisions is peak arrogance on your part. If you want to live your life a certain way go for it. Just don't impose it on other people.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:38 pm
by Heloin
Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:No they’re not. They’re trying to make your life worse. If it was up to them you would suffer. I’ve lived in a society where the bigots you’re calling “helpful” have had power. They become butchers.

Wanting anyone to suffer is unjustifiable. And that's what I already said. That is wrong.

That’s what all homophobia is.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:39 pm
by Alcala-Cordel
Tsarus 2142 wrote:
Picairn wrote:Homophobic alert! Why do you believe gays "deserve better"?

Deserve better=deserve a culture that does not promote immorality.
And again that is just an example.

Nothing immoral about being gay.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:41 pm
by Loeje
Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:Wanting anyone to suffer is unjustifiable. And that's what I already said. That is wrong.

That’s what all homophobia is.

Usually, yes, but not always.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:42 pm
by Prydania
The Reformed American Republic wrote:To answer the OP's question. Hating people just because they're gay, bi, trans, etc is NOT justified at all. People getting annoyed that certain symbols are being shoved in their face every two seconds and they're basically forced to kiss someone's ring...

How do you think LGBTQ+ people feel about living in a heteronormative society?

And to be clear- heteronormative CIS people make up the vast majority of the population. So I'm NOT suggesting we remake society into some rainbow-pattered utopia.
That being said...if I can deal with the barrage of heteronormative advertising, media, and coding in every aspect of my life year round then you can deal with seeing some rainbow flags every June or a trans flag on a NS region after a raid. Buck up, you're (presumably) a straight person. Society is catering to you on a constant basis. A few bits of LGBTQ+ symbols being propped up here and there in the push for basic equality and human decency isn't an attack on your near-impenetrable culture hegemony.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 pm
by Heloin
Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:That’s what all homophobia is.

Usually, yes, but not always.

It always is. No form of bigotry is ever justified for any reason.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:44 pm
by The Reformed American Republic
Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:That’s what all homophobia is.

Usually, yes, but not always.

It depends on who is defining it. Obviously those who want to cause LGBTQ+ people harm are not very good people in my view, and should be opposed. With that being said, some people define it more vaguely than that, where neutrality or "meh" is considered "homophobia."

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:48 pm
by Loeje
Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:Usually, yes, but not always.

It always is. No form of bigotry is ever justified for any reason.

There are people who don't feel that way and still qualify as homophobic. They're the exception, but they exist and if we give them a chance they might change their minds.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:49 pm
by Prydania
The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Loeje wrote:Usually, yes, but not always.

It depends on who is defining it. Obviously those who want to cause LGBTQ+ people harm are not very good people in my view, and should be opposed. With that being said, some people define it more vaguely than that, where neutrality or "meh" is considered "homophobia."

I've never seen this fabled "honest person who thinks LGBT people should be afforded respect but is persecuted by the woke mob for being homophobic because they weren't enthusiastic enough," and I did volunteer work for LGBTory when I lived in Canada. You'd think we would have gotten a lot of hate, but it was...as you would say..."meh."

So this sob story of "I believe gay people are cool but I wasn't enthusiastic enough one Pride Month and now they're saying I'm a homophobe," seems like just that. A sob story.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:50 pm
by The Free Joy State
No.

To expand, I think homophobic people are very good at self-justification of their hatred (usually in the form of statements, generally tinged with self-righteousness, that they "love the person" but "just/simply" hate a fundamental part of that person's self), but no form of bigotry can ever actually be justified.