Can Homophobia Be Justified?

[Argyns]

Explained: yes

Excused: sometimes

Accepted: rarely

Justified: NEVER

[Larom]

No.

[New Astri]

Y'all ever notice how cishets portraying their relationships ubiquitously in all forms of media and treating those relationships as the default and norm isn't "shoving their relationship in our faces," but the second gay people have the audacity to exist in public, we're shoving our relationship in THEIR faces? For many straight people, even just remembering that we exist is too much to bear.

[Greater Mobile]

Y'all ever notice how cishets portraying their relationships ubiquitously in all forms of media and treating those relationships as the default and norm isn't "shoving their relationship in our faces," but the second gay people have the audacity to exist in public, we're shoving our relationship in THEIR faces? For many straight people, even just remembering that we exist is too much to bear.

“It’s not that I’m heterophobic, I just think that straight people are disgusting and should not exist. I don’t care if they exist where I can’t see them, that’s none of my business. But they should not exist near me.”

[Necroghastia]

Y'all ever notice how cishets portraying their relationships ubiquitously in all forms of media and treating those relationships as the default and norm isn't "shoving their relationship in our faces," but the second gay people have the audacity to exist in public, we're shoving our relationship in THEIR faces? For many straight people, even just remembering that we exist is too much to bear.

We can advertise "male supplements" with "she'll like it too " and no one bats an eye but if there's a lesbian wedding some people go apeshit

[Nakena]

A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.

[Saint Arsenio]

A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.

That's actually a really good point.

[New Astri]

A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.

I see this idea a lot, but I'm not really a fan of it.
The presence of homophobic gay people is because homophobia is so deeply engrained in society that gay people are taught by the straight people around them to hate their own sexuality from a young age. But the majority of people are straight, and the majority of homophobes are straight. A rather small proportion of homophobes are actually gay.

The "fear of one's own sexuality" is a direct result of the homophobia that straight people have created and been perpetuating for thousands of years. It's always traceable back to straight people. I don't like how this idea subtly places some blame for homophobia onto gay people without acknowledging why those gay people are homophobic in the first place.

[Greater Mobile]

A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.

I see this idea a lot, but I'm not really a fan of it.
The presence of homophobic gay people is because homophobia is so deeply engrained in society that gay people are taught by the straight people around them to hate their own sexuality from a young age. But the majority of people are straight, and the majority of homophobes are straight. A rather small proportion of homophobes are actually gay.

The "fear of one's own sexuality" is a direct result of the homophobia that straight people have created and been perpetuating for thousands of years. It's always traceable back to straight people. I don't like how this idea subtly places some blame for homophobia onto gay people without acknowledging why those gay people are homophobic in the first place.

I agree that the “homophobes are gay” thing can be harmful when used the wrong way. Homophobia, regardless of the sexuality of the person being homophobic, is precisely the result of a hostile heteronormative society.

I know it’s almost never the intention, but sometimes it can come off as blaming gay people for our own oppression - especially when the argument is “that person is homophobic therefore he must be secretly gay”. We aren’t doing this to ourselves.

[Daarwyrth]

Daar: Then we are agreed on the "Live and Let Live" principle which makes certain conservatives and leftists the main issue to deal with.

I'll always be a huge proponent of this principle, until the moment certain conservatives will try to enforce their ideals upon me or others. Then I will push back. Hard.

[Nakena]

A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.

I see this idea a lot, but I'm not really a fan of it.
The presence of homophobic gay people is because homophobia is so deeply engrained in society that gay people are taught by the straight people around them to hate their own sexuality from a young age. But the majority of people are straight, and the majority of homophobes are straight. A rather small proportion of homophobes are actually gay.

The "fear of one's own sexuality" is a direct result of the homophobia that straight people have created and been perpetuating for thousands of years. It's always traceable back to straight people. I don't like how this idea subtly places some blame for homophobia onto gay people without acknowledging why those gay people are homophobic in the first place.

I disagree. I do not believe that there is like a continual millenia long repression of homosexual tendencies amongst humans. Not even in christian europe. (and i am no fan of christianity at all...) In history and across various cultures the attitudes towards sexuality has been in a state of changing and often constant flux. For example until, historically speaking, relatively recently the arabic and islamic world used to be a lot more tolerant of homosexuality than the west was for a long time.

This isn't about blame or anything, it is about the weird and often contradictatory nature of humans. Which is very often - pun intended - anything but straight.

[Nakena]

A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.

That's actually a really good point.

It sort of overlaps with my experiences and observations in general. Make no mistake, this doesnt makes it any better.

It makes things a lot more dangerous. Because self-hatred and self-repressed sexual tendencies have, when extreme enough, the potential to transform itself into exogenic violence. I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself, with elements and aspects of their own being and sexuality. When this goes unchecked, the effects can be devastating.

[Daarwyrth]

That's actually a really good point.

It sort of overlaps with my experiences and observations in general. Make no mistake, this doesnt makes it any better. Au contraire!

It makes things a lot more dangerous. Because self-hatred and self-repressed sexual tendencies have, when extreme enough, the potential to transform itself into exogenic violence. I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself, with elements and aspects of their own being and sexuality. When this goes unchecked, the effects can be devastating.

Before I accepted my own sexuality, I was really homophobic. I remember, with shame, how I once even professed in class that gay people should be locked up in mental institutions. Part of this was because my home environment wasn't accepting of gay people (luckily, that has drastically changed over the years), and I was literally taught by my religious parents that it was a disease. So, I internalised this, but oh boy, oh boy, then I fell in love with my best friend, a guy. Thankfully, as the years progressed and I entered into a very tolerant and accepting environment (the Netherlands is like that), I learned that my viewpoints on homosexuality were utterly wrong. I first learned to accept my homosexuality, then to embrace it, and today I am at peace with myself and happy. But that's not all! Thanks to this, I was able to first change the viewpoints of my mother, who is a fervent LGBTQ ally today, and slowly, step by step my dad is also changing his views on the subject. It helped a lot that both my parents and I stepped away from religion and instead embraced science and logic. It broadened our worldviews a thousandfold and made us much happier people today.

Of course, just because I was a perfect example of "homophobes are closeted gays", it doesn't mean that is true for all cases. However, it does seem to be a recurring feature.

[New Astri]

That's actually a really good point.

It sort of overlaps with my experiences and observations in general. Make no mistake, this doesnt makes it any better. Au contraire!

It makes things a lot more dangerous. Because self-hatred and self-repressed sexual tendencies have, when extreme enough, the potential to transform itself into exogenic violence. I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself, with elements and aspects of their own being and sexuality. When this goes unchecked, the effects can be devastating.

Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression. Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans" and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.

" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."

Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.

It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.

[Adamede]

homophobia is always justified because being gay is immoral and wrong. not only is it disgusting, but there are consequences to being gay (example, there are a lot of std's you can get). also despite just being 2% of the population, gays are 50% of child molesters. the average gay man has at about 100 sexual partners per year. 92% of lesbian relationships end up being abusive. 56% of transgenders attempt suicide. if so much pride then why so much suicide? not only that, but generally gays are the most rotten and mean people you will ever meet. they get offended by literally anything and demand to be more privileged than you. if you dont fulfill one of their demands they go ape shit. so yes, homophobia is and will always be justified,

Sources plz k thnx

[SD_Film Artists]

But it is made from people who were actually there or were direct decendents of people who were there.

Aaand?
If I disapprove of of Armenia’s blatant Islamophobia, am I disrespecting survivors of the Armenian Genocide?
If I complain about Buhari, am I disrespecting the martyrs of the Biafran War?

That's the hypocrisy that I was pointing out- you imply that any connection between LGBT people/allies and authoritarianism is 'fucking gross' simply because LGBT people (gay people specifically) were victims of the holocaust, and yet many who'd call themselves allies of LGBT apparently have no issue with making the same 'fucking gross' argument towards Jewish Israelis- many of whom were actually in the holocaust camps rather than simply sharing a sexual identity with those who were.

And again you're falsely equating 'Jews' with the illegal actions of the government of Israel.

Exactly- The existance of holocaust survivers doesn't make it impossible for the government of Israel act in an authoritarian way. Likewise, the fact that gay people were also victims of the holocaust doesn't make it impossible for modern gay people to be authoritarian.

I don't agree with the people who cry 'apartheid' whenever they see the Israeli flag; but not because of the holocaust, rather because of a general valuing of Israel's place in the world as a country and ally.

---

Well it's good that you're not a hypocrite, but I still don't see the logic that gay people have a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to authoritianism, not least since some Nazis were gay. Or were you instead trying to say that it's impossible for gay people to be authoritian simply because some other gay people decades ago were victims of authoritarianism and fascism? Forgive me if I've made a strawman, I'm just trying to see how Novokria's comment was 'fucking gross'.

From the way that I red Genivaria's comment, it didn't come off as "gay people have a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to authoritarianism" or "gay people can't be authoritarian", more "implying that a group of people who were targeted during a genocide are going to do a genocide back based on the flimsiest of logic is gross".

I haven't been following Novokria's posts for the entirity of the thread so I could be wrong, but it looked like he was paraphrasing the 'First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out' poem rather than literally having information of an imminent left-wing conspiracy trying to put people into camps.

---

Says the political wing which routinely equates holocaust survivers and their decendents with apartheid.

Says the political wing that hates George Soros and uses the fact he as a Jew helped the Nazis to justify that.

This is how stupid your point sounds.

I don't even know who George Soros is let alone what wing you think I am in. Also Genivaria has clarified that my first statement doesn't apply to him and I've recognised such.

[Daarwyrth]

It sort of overlaps with my experiences and observations in general. Make no mistake, this doesnt makes it any better. Au contraire!

It makes things a lot more dangerous. Because self-hatred and self-repressed sexual tendencies have, when extreme enough, the potential to transform itself into exogenic violence. I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself, with elements and aspects of their own being and sexuality. When this goes unchecked, the effects can be devastating.

Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression. Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans" and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.

" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."

Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.

It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.

I think both you and Nakena hold a piece of the truth. To say that all oppression that gays face is a result of self-internalised hatred by closeted gays isn't right, because much of it if not most is caused by heterosexual conservatives, who often, but not always, have ties to religion. However, I do think that because of the strict, conservative environment a part of those people find themselves in, causes them to remain closeted and feel a lot of repressed self-hatred for the fact that they are gay. I am sure there are some instances where this self-internalised hatred manifests itself as endeavours to oppress other gay people, but I think it's rather the exception than the norm. Yet even in those cases, it's the conservative environment enforced by conservative heterosexuals that is the cause of this, not the closeted gay person him or herself.

[New Astri]

Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression. Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans" and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.

" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."

Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.

It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.

I think both you and the quoted poster hold a piece of the truth. To say that all oppression that gays face is a result of self-internalised hatred by closeted gays isn't right, because much of it if not most is caused by heterosexual conservatives, who often, but not always, have ties to religion. However, I do think that because of the strict, conservative environment a part of those people find themselves in, causes them to remain closeted and feel a lot of repressed self-hatred for the fact that they are gay. I am sure there are some instances where this self-internalised hatred manifests itself as endeavours to oppress other gay people, but I think it's rather the exception than the norm. Yet even in those cases, it's the conservative environment enforced by conservative heterosexuals, that is the cause of this, not the closeted gay person him or herself.

I agree with you 100%--I'm not at all denying that some gay people are homophobic, I just think it's important to acknowledge that their homophobia is a result of the environment that straight people have created, not "the weird and often contradictory nature of humans" that the other poster was using as an explanation for homophobic gay people. They're right that some homophobia is perpetuated by gay people, but I disagree with how they seem to be treating those gay people as the root of the homophobia rather than as a vessel for it.

[Nakena]

Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression.

Haha no. I don't even believe that theres that much a destinction between gay and straight people. It's not like they're different races or breeds of humans. I do even believe the fixed categorization of "gay" vs "straight" is harmful and plainly wrong. I say that as someone who myself isnt exactly "heteronormative". lol

Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans"

It's exactly about that. And don't mistake this for downplaying. This weird and contradictory nature can sometimes lead to awful consequences.

and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.

Again, I make no such binary destinction. It is you. It is you talk about straight and gay people as if they were different human races.

" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."

Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.

Again, its not like gay and straights are different races or species.

It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.

It is you, Astri, who is spinning a very bad narrative here for yourself. Do you not perceive what you are doing here?

[Greater Mobile]

Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression.

Haha no. I don't even believe that theres that much a destinction between gay and straight people. It's not like they're different races or breeds of humans. I do even believe the fixed categorization of "gay" vs "straight" is harmful and plainly wrong. I say that as someone who myself isnt exactly "heteronormative". lol

Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans"

It's exactly about that. And don't mistake this for downplaying. This weird and contradictory nature can sometimes lead to awful consequences.

and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.

Again, I make no such binary destinction. It is you. It is you talk about straight and gay people as if they were different human races.

" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."

Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.

Again, its not like gay and straights are different races or species.

It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.

It is you, Astri, who is spinning a very bad narrative here for yourself. Do you not perceive what you are doing here?

This philosophical point of “gay people and straight people aren’t that different” is besides the point when talking about homophobia.

Because yes, while you’re correct, I’m have much more in common with straights than I have different from them - the fact remains that homophobes do not believe that. Not only do they believe that we are extremely different, they believe that we are scum on their boots.

I can tell you mean well, and that we’re on the same side here, but I think that your good faith arguments are just in bad taste. Almost like when a white person compliments a black person by calling them “articulate”. Yes, it’s a compliment, but the implications wrapped up in good intentions are bad. It does feel like you are saying that homophobia is largely something that the gay community does to itself.

Lastly, as a gay man, I don’t want you to look at me as being the same as a straight man. I want equality, but I don’t want it to come at the expense of my identity. I don’t want you to “not see color” in a sense, I want you to see the struggles my community faces, empathize with them, and stand against those who would oppress us. That is what all disenfranchised and oppressed people want. Treat me with equity and kindness, but do not forget what we had to endure in order to make people think we deserved it.

[New Astri]

Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression.

Haha no. I don't even believe that theres that much a destinction between gay and straight people. It's not like they're different races or breeds of humans. I do even believe the fixed categorization of "gay" vs "straight" is harmful and plainly wrong. I say that as someone who myself isnt exactly "heteronormative". lol

Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans"

It's exactly about that. And don't mistake this for downplaying. This weird and contradictory nature can sometimes lead to awful consequences.

and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.

Again, I make no such binary destinction. It is you. It is you talk about straight and gay people as if they were different human races.

" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."

Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.

Again, its not like gay and straights are different races or species.

It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.

It is you, Astri, who is spinning a very bad narrative here for yourself. Do you not perceive what you are doing here?

Well, you see, the distinction between gay and straight people is that gay people like only the same gender and straight people like only the opposite gender. It's interesting that you would call such a objective and harmless categories "harmful," and "plainly wrong," to say the least.

I'm not really sure how you're equating my acknowledgement that
1. Homophobia exists
&
2. Gay people are not a root of homophobia
with treating gay and straight people like different species.

I also don't really understand what point you're trying to make here, but frankly, you sound pseudointellectual right now.

[Viennaria]

This is an interesting topic. It cannot be justified, as homophobia only covers a small part of the problem. I would like to mention that even if you morally believe it is wrong, that doesn't make you homophobic. What makes you homophobic is if you choose to judge someone and not accept them based on their sexual preference.

[Nakena]

This philosophical point of “gay people and straight people aren’t that different” is besides the point when talking about homophobia.

Its totally to Astri's point of painting gay and straight people as basically different human races. That plays right into the narratives of homophobe types.

Because yes, while you’re correct, I’m have much more in common with straights than I have different from them - the fact remains that homophobes do not believe that. Not only do they believe that we are extremely different, they believe that we are scum on their boots.

No disagreements here.

I can tell you mean well, and that we’re on the same side here, but I think that your good faith arguments are just in bad taste. Almost like when a white person compliments a black person by calling them “articulate”. Yes, it’s a compliment, but the implications wrapped up in good intentions are bad. It does feel like you are saying that homophobia is largely something that the gay community does to itself.

I am myself genderqueer and bi-sexual but...

Lastly, as a gay man, I don’t want you to look at me as being the same as a straight man. I want equality, but I don’t want it to come at the expense of my identity. I don’t want you to “not see color” in a sense, I want you to see the struggles my community faces, empathize with them, and stand against those who would oppress us. That is what all disenfranchised and oppressed people want. Treat me with equity and kindness, but do not forget what we had to endure in order to make people think we deserved it.

...I do not share your worldview.

[Nakena]

Well, you see, the distinction between gay and straight people is that gay people like only the same gender and straight people like only the opposite gender. It's interesting that you would call such a objective and harmless categories "harmful," and "plainly wrong," to say the least.

I consider your take of human sexuality to be rather ridiculously reductionist. It is sad that you try to force people like this into specific boxes and categories.

I'm not really sure how you're equating my acknowledgement that
1. Homophobia exists
&
2. Gay people are not a root of homophobia
with treating gay and straight people like different species.

I also don't really understand what point you're trying to make here, but frankly, you sound pseudointellectual right now.

My point is that you keep talking as if gay and straight people are two separate human races. You may not notice it but you do.

[SD_Film Artists]

Justified? No. Explained, yes.

It also depends on what 'homophobia' is.

Inciting violence against gay people = homophobia.

Saying that maybe we don't have to turn all Netflix characters into gay characters and instead focus on actually writing a good story which may or may not include gay characters= not homophobia.