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by New Astri » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:43 am
by Greater Mobile » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:46 am
New Astri wrote:Y'all ever notice how cishets portraying their relationships ubiquitously in all forms of media and treating those relationships as the default and norm isn't "shoving their relationship in our faces," but the second gay people have the audacity to exist in public, we're shoving our relationship in THEIR faces? For many straight people, even just remembering that we exist is too much to bear.
by Necroghastia » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:46 am
New Astri wrote:Y'all ever notice how cishets portraying their relationships ubiquitously in all forms of media and treating those relationships as the default and norm isn't "shoving their relationship in our faces," but the second gay people have the audacity to exist in public, we're shoving our relationship in THEIR faces? For many straight people, even just remembering that we exist is too much to bear.
by Saint Arsenio » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:53 am
Nakena wrote:A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.
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by New Astri » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:54 am
Nakena wrote:A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.
by Greater Mobile » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:08 am
New Astri wrote:Nakena wrote:A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.
I see this idea a lot, but I'm not really a fan of it.
The presence of homophobic gay people is because homophobia is so deeply engrained in society that gay people are taught by the straight people around them to hate their own sexuality from a young age. But the majority of people are straight, and the majority of homophobes are straight. A rather small proportion of homophobes are actually gay.
The "fear of one's own sexuality" is a direct result of the homophobia that straight people have created and been perpetuating for thousands of years. It's always traceable back to straight people. I don't like how this idea subtly places some blame for homophobia onto gay people without acknowledging why those gay people are homophobic in the first place.
by Daarwyrth » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:17 am
Tundra Terra wrote:Daar: Then we are agreed on the "Live and Let Live" principle which makes certain conservatives and leftists the main issue to deal with.
by Nakena » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:18 am
New Astri wrote:Nakena wrote:A lot of homophobia is really fear of one's own sexuality and homosexual tendencies. A lot of homophobes are closeted or self-repressed in denial.
I see this idea a lot, but I'm not really a fan of it.
The presence of homophobic gay people is because homophobia is so deeply engrained in society that gay people are taught by the straight people around them to hate their own sexuality from a young age. But the majority of people are straight, and the majority of homophobes are straight. A rather small proportion of homophobes are actually gay.
The "fear of one's own sexuality" is a direct result of the homophobia that straight people have created and been perpetuating for thousands of years. It's always traceable back to straight people. I don't like how this idea subtly places some blame for homophobia onto gay people without acknowledging why those gay people are homophobic in the first place.
by Nakena » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:22 am
by Daarwyrth » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:29 am
Nakena wrote:Saint Arsenio wrote:That's actually a really good point.
It sort of overlaps with my experiences and observations in general. Make no mistake, this doesnt makes it any better. Au contraire!
It makes things a lot more dangerous. Because self-hatred and self-repressed sexual tendencies have, when extreme enough, the potential to transform itself into exogenic violence. I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself, with elements and aspects of their own being and sexuality. When this goes unchecked, the effects can be devastating.
by New Astri » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:30 am
Nakena wrote:Saint Arsenio wrote:That's actually a really good point.
It sort of overlaps with my experiences and observations in general. Make no mistake, this doesnt makes it any better. Au contraire!
It makes things a lot more dangerous. Because self-hatred and self-repressed sexual tendencies have, when extreme enough, the potential to transform itself into exogenic violence. I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself, with elements and aspects of their own being and sexuality. When this goes unchecked, the effects can be devastating.
by Adamede » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:30 am
Holy Valia wrote:homophobia is always justified because being gay is immoral and wrong. not only is it disgusting, but there are consequences to being gay (example, there are a lot of std's you can get). also despite just being 2% of the population, gays are 50% of child molesters. the average gay man has at about 100 sexual partners per year. 92% of lesbian relationships end up being abusive. 56% of transgenders attempt suicide. if so much pride then why so much suicide? not only that, but generally gays are the most rotten and mean people you will ever meet. they get offended by literally anything and demand to be more privileged than you. if you dont fulfill one of their demands they go ape shit. so yes, homophobia is and will always be justified,
by SD_Film Artists » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:33 am
Insaanistan wrote:SD_Film Artists wrote:
But it is made from people who were actually there or were direct decendents of people who were there.
Aaand?
If I disapprove of of Armenia’s blatant Islamophobia, am I disrespecting survivors of the Armenian Genocide?
If I complain about Buhari, am I disrespecting the martyrs of the Biafran War?
Genivaria wrote:SD_Film Artists wrote:
That's the hypocrisy that I was pointing out- you imply that any connection between LGBT people/allies and authoritarianism is 'fucking gross' simply because LGBT people (gay people specifically) were victims of the holocaust, and yet many who'd call themselves allies of LGBT apparently have no issue with making the same 'fucking gross' argument towards Jewish Israelis- many of whom were actually in the holocaust camps rather than simply sharing a sexual identity with those who were.
And again you're falsely equating 'Jews' with the illegal actions of the government of Israel.
Esalia wrote:SD_Film Artists wrote:
Well it's good that you're not a hypocrite, but I still don't see the logic that gay people have a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to authoritianism, not least since some Nazis were gay. Or were you instead trying to say that it's impossible for gay people to be authoritian simply because some other gay people decades ago were victims of authoritarianism and fascism? Forgive me if I've made a strawman, I'm just trying to see how Novokria's comment was 'fucking gross'.
From the way that I red Genivaria's comment, it didn't come off as "gay people have a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to authoritarianism" or "gay people can't be authoritarian", more "implying that a group of people who were targeted during a genocide are going to do a genocide back based on the flimsiest of logic is gross".
by Daarwyrth » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:37 am
New Astri wrote:Nakena wrote:
It sort of overlaps with my experiences and observations in general. Make no mistake, this doesnt makes it any better. Au contraire!
It makes things a lot more dangerous. Because self-hatred and self-repressed sexual tendencies have, when extreme enough, the potential to transform itself into exogenic violence. I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself, with elements and aspects of their own being and sexuality. When this goes unchecked, the effects can be devastating.
Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression. Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans" and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.
" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."
Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.
It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.
by New Astri » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:43 am
Daarwyrth wrote:New Astri wrote:
Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression. Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans" and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.
" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."
Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.
It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.
I think both you and the quoted poster hold a piece of the truth. To say that all oppression that gays face is a result of self-internalised hatred by closeted gays isn't right, because much of it if not most is caused by heterosexual conservatives, who often, but not always, have ties to religion. However, I do think that because of the strict, conservative environment a part of those people find themselves in, causes them to remain closeted and feel a lot of repressed self-hatred for the fact that they are gay. I am sure there are some instances where this self-internalised hatred manifests itself as endeavours to oppress other gay people, but I think it's rather the exception than the norm. Yet even in those cases, it's the conservative environment enforced by conservative heterosexuals, that is the cause of this, not the closeted gay person him or herself.
by Nakena » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:53 am
New Astri wrote:Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression.
New Astri wrote:Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans"
New Astri wrote:and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.
New Astri wrote:" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."
Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.
New Astri wrote:It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.
by Greater Mobile » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:08 pm
Nakena wrote:New Astri wrote:Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression.
Haha no. I don't even believe that theres that much a destinction between gay and straight people. It's not like they're different races or breeds of humans. I do even believe the fixed categorization of "gay" vs "straight" is harmful and plainly wrong. I say that as someone who myself isnt exactly "heteronormative". lolNew Astri wrote:Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans"
It's exactly about that. And don't mistake this for downplaying. This weird and contradictory nature can sometimes lead to awful consequences.New Astri wrote:and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.
Again, I make no such binary destinction. It is you. It is you talk about straight and gay people as if they were different human races.New Astri wrote:" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."
Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.
Again, its not like gay and straights are different races or species.New Astri wrote:It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.
It is you, Astri, who is spinning a very bad narrative here for yourself. Do you not perceive what you are doing here?
by New Astri » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:13 pm
Nakena wrote:New Astri wrote:Yeah, uh, now you're just blaming gay people for our own oppression.
Haha no. I don't even believe that theres that much a destinction between gay and straight people. It's not like they're different races or breeds of humans. I do even believe the fixed categorization of "gay" vs "straight" is harmful and plainly wrong. I say that as someone who myself isnt exactly "heteronormative". lolNew Astri wrote:Saying that homophobia is about "the weird and contradictory nature of humans"
It's exactly about that. And don't mistake this for downplaying. This weird and contradictory nature can sometimes lead to awful consequences.New Astri wrote:and not straight people's constant oppression of us is ridiculous. Gay people aren't engaging in self-hatred and sexual repression for no reason. They're engaging in it because straight people have taught them to do so.
Again, I make no such binary destinction. It is you. It is you talk about straight and gay people as if they were different human races.New Astri wrote:" I believe a lot of homophobe people are ultimatively at war with themself."
Gonna quote a person from a few posts up here: You're wrong. We aren't doing this to ourselves.
Again, its not like gay and straights are different races or species.New Astri wrote:It's both homophobic and illogical to place so much blame for our own oppression on us. It all goes back to straight people teaching us to feel this way. If you're not acknowledging that, you're not understanding how our oppression works.
It is you, Astri, who is spinning a very bad narrative here for yourself. Do you not perceive what you are doing here?
by Viennaria » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:15 pm
by Nakena » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:24 pm
Greater Mobile wrote:This philosophical point of “gay people and straight people aren’t that different” is besides the point when talking about homophobia.
Greater Mobile wrote:Because yes, while you’re correct, I’m have much more in common with straights than I have different from them - the fact remains that homophobes do not believe that. Not only do they believe that we are extremely different, they believe that we are scum on their boots.
Greater Mobile wrote:I can tell you mean well, and that we’re on the same side here, but I think that your good faith arguments are just in bad taste. Almost like when a white person compliments a black person by calling them “articulate”. Yes, it’s a compliment, but the implications wrapped up in good intentions are bad. It does feel like you are saying that homophobia is largely something that the gay community does to itself.
Greater Mobile wrote:Lastly, as a gay man, I don’t want you to look at me as being the same as a straight man. I want equality, but I don’t want it to come at the expense of my identity. I don’t want you to “not see color” in a sense, I want you to see the struggles my community faces, empathize with them, and stand against those who would oppress us. That is what all disenfranchised and oppressed people want. Treat me with equity and kindness, but do not forget what we had to endure in order to make people think we deserved it.
by Nakena » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:29 pm
New Astri wrote:Well, you see, the distinction between gay and straight people is that gay people like only the same gender and straight people like only the opposite gender. It's interesting that you would call such a objective and harmless categories "harmful," and "plainly wrong," to say the least.
New Astri wrote:I'm not really sure how you're equating my acknowledgement that
1. Homophobia exists
&
2. Gay people are not a root of homophobia
with treating gay and straight people like different species.
I also don't really understand what point you're trying to make here, but frankly, you sound pseudointellectual right now.
by SD_Film Artists » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:34 pm
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