Can Homophobia Be Justified?

[Tsarus 2142]

*Snip*

Lmao, you're the one getting pissy about someone not reading your posts when you haven't even read mine to realise I was making a J.O.K.E. and never claimed anyone in this thread specifically was homophobic with said joke.

Ive already addressed that

[The New California Republic]

I do disdain the surrounding culture, I believe hypersexuality is a negative thing.

Not all LGBT people are "hypersexual". Hell, not even most of us are. So tainting us all with that same broad brush is just wrong.

[Daarwyrth]

"My brother once told me that nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts." - Benjen Stark

It really is amusing when conservatives tell me "I am not homophobic, BUT why should you have the same rights as me?". It's a coping mechanism to convince themselves that they're still good people, even if they hate certain people for the most mundane things.

We shouldn't say conservatives, since that's a little rude to assume all conservatives are homophobic.

You're right, we can't employ the same tactics certain conservatives employ and throw them all into the same bin. I apologise for my previous stereotyping and will mend it in the future.

[Ifreann]

"My brother once told me that nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts." - Benjen Stark

It really is amusing when conservatives tell me "I am not homophobic, BUT why should you have the same rights as me?". It's a coping mechanism to convince themselves that they're still good people, even if they hate certain people for the most mundane things.

We shouldn't say conservatives, since that's a little rude to assume all conservatives are homophobic.

Conservatives are homophobic, right up until their fight against gay rights is unequivocally lost, then they just quietly move on.

[Loeje]

You can disagree with them and respect them. It just doesn't seem to be very common among people who are homophobic. But it's possible.

You can't disagree that someone is gay. If an individual is homophobic, they view people who are LGBT as lesser or as repugnant, or unworthy of the same rights and respect as heterosexuals; this extends far further than disagreements. Homophobia inherently means that the level of respect is far far less, you cannot truly respect a member of the LBGT as a homophobe. Anybody who is a homophobe but says that they respect homosexuals are lying to themselves and to you

There is the possibility that they think it's a sin and treat it the same way they treat any other sin. Which would make respect possible.

[Necroghastia]

We shouldn't say conservatives, since that's a little rude to assume all conservatives are homophobic.

Conservatives are homophobic, right up until their fight against gay rights is unequivocally lost, then they just quietly move on to transphobia.

ftfy iffy <3

[Picairn]

I believe that Goatmoon is talking about LGBT culture, which is separate from the LGBT individual.
I've previously discussed this, my conclusion being that it is valid to disdain a dominant culture surrounding an individuals identity.
Personally, I do not disdain anyone for being LGBT as it is a mere trait.
I do disdain the surrounding culture, I believe hypersexuality is a negative thing.

Goatmoon was literally making strawmen about the LGBT community and the left.

I understand that you feel uncomfortable about some assholes displaying their hypersexuality on the streets where children can see and stuff (surprise surprise, I don't like those weirdos either), but you lose all standing when you start agreeing that such behavior is a "dominant" part of LGBT culture.

[Istoreya]

Lmao, you're the one getting pissy about someone not reading your posts when you haven't even read mine to realise I was making a J.O.K.E. and never claimed anyone in this thread specifically was homophobic with said joke.

Ive already addressed that

You actually haven't, you claim I said someone was homophobic and that's not true. You made the mistake of thinking I was, I corrected you, yet to continue to use the false idea that I was as your argument.

[Tundra Terra]

Loaded springs...they're the worst. Perhaps even more than feathers?
I'm just wondering since you happen to be the first responder how is exactly logic going to overthrow bigotry? If i happen to be this homophobic conservative why would i care for that person's argument in the first place?

Granted this is the internet where emotion reigns supreme more often than not, yet most arguments for either side seem to be rather weak as i read on (i'm nearly done).
How do you plan to convince this (not homophobic), but nonetheless opposing conservative who is talking to you now?

Why do you think I'm trying to convince you? If you express bigotry, I will counter it with logic and reason. If you fail to see the logic and reason in what I say, that's frankly your problem, not mine. If the byproduct of my countering is that you see some of the logic and reason I intended to spread, then hurrah! But if you truly didn't care this much, if it truly meant nothing to you, why do you feel the need to respond? I mean, feel absolutely free to respond to every post you see, but something must be ruffling your feathers (there's the feather) that you have decided to come here and engage with me. I mean, you seem fairly certain of your views... right?

I mean, I know why I am engaging with this subject. I have a vested interest in having basic human rights as a gay man. So obviously, homophobia is something I will be highly interested and motivated in, in countering.

Quite. I am not convinced by the arguments going on here mostly due to the history of Athens vs. Sparta. On one hand you had a society that was the cultural beacon of Greece and was very cosmopolitan in how it treated people and on the other you had a society that was xenophobic to even their own people, but nonetheless a military super-power (for the times). Both societies had their pros and cons, but unlike the rest of Greece they went ever more extreme to solve the cracks in their society and failed. Athens went for radical inclusitivity to such an extent that it eroded all meaning to even be Athenian or special in some way and even their enemies would be allowed to vote (which naturally was NOT to the benefit of those living there) and it collapsed to outsiders. Sparta by comparison only trusted Dorian people and the ideas thereof, but to solve their issues of a shrinking army/birth rate they must ban even the Periokoi. Even if you were spartan and had kids with a periokoi (free man/women) who's family and military history stretches back centuries fighting/dying alongside you that couple is to be exiled in disgrace. Unsuprisingly Sparta died off, but so did Athens. One died of starvation of people and the other died choking its lungs with people.

[Esalia]

I am not a 'political wing' so your comment is irrelevant.

Well it's good that you're not a hypocrite, but I still don't see the logic that gay people have a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to authoritianism, not least since some Nazis were gay. Or were you instead trying to say that it's impossible for gay people to be authoritian simply because some other gay people decades ago were victims of authoritarianism and fascism? Forgive me if I've made a strawman, I'm just trying to see how Novokria's comment was 'fucking gross'.

From the way that I red Genivaria's comment, it didn't come off as "gay people have a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to authoritarianism" or "gay people can't be authoritarian", more "implying that a group of people who were targeted during a genocide are going to do a genocide back based on the flimsiest of logic is gross".

[Gongsi]

I believe that Goatmoon is talking about LGBT culture, which is separate from the LGBT individual.
I've previously discussed this, my conclusion being that it is valid to disdain a dominant culture surrounding an individuals identity.
Personally, I do not disdain anyone for being LGBT as it is a mere trait.
I do disdain the surrounding culture, I believe hypersexuality is a negative thing.

The thing is, there isn't a dominant or even popular culture surrounding LGBT. What you have most likely witnessed is a certain vocal minority which may appear dominant due to overexposure. But no, a vast majority of LGBT people don't subscribe to a "hypersexual culture", they just are usually comparatively silent about it.

[Daarwyrth]

I do disdain the surrounding culture, I believe hypersexuality is a negative thing.

Not all LGBT people are "hypersexual". Hell, not even most of us are. So tainting us all with that same broad brush is just wrong.

I barely can keep eye contact with people without getting strong social anxiety, let alone flirt with someone. But I bet some people here see me as some raging homosexual going all out at Gay Prides (I've never been to one, actually, and I'm really self-concious about my body so taking off my shirt is a big no-no for me). But then again harmful stereotyping has been the preferred method of attack and ridicule of certain conservatives.

[Ifreann]

Conservatives are homophobic, right up until their fight against gay rights is unequivocally lost, then they just quietly move on to transphobia.

ftfy iffy <3

That would be correct, yes. We'll see who they move on to when they lose on trans rights.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Aight, time-out's over.

You can't disagree that someone is gay. If an individual is homophobic, they view people who are LGBT as lesser or as repugnant, or unworthy of the same rights and respect as heterosexuals; this extends far further than disagreements. Homophobia inherently means that the level of respect is far far less, you cannot truly respect a member of the LBGT as a homophobe. Anybody who is a homophobe but says that they respect homosexuals are lying to themselves and to you

There is the possibility that they think it's a sin and treat it the same way they treat any other sin. Which would make respect possible.

Not really. People who say they "love the sinner, hate the sin" tend to look down on the people they think are "sinning" with a holier-than-thou kind of attitude, meaning they really don't respect them. Then there's the issue of them trying to force their beliefs on others over something harmless.

[Loeje]

There is the possibility that they think it's a sin and treat it the same way they treat any other sin. Which would make respect possible.

Not really. People who say they "love the sinner, hate the sin" tend to look down on the people they think are "sinning" with a holier-than-thou kind of attitude, meaning they really don't respect them. Then there's the issue of them trying to force their beliefs on others over something harmless.

They sin too. Everyone sins. If they actually recognize that, they can be a lot better.

[Goatmoon]

I'm not a conservative, nor a Christian. Most people, including me, could care less what people do behind closed doors in the privacy of their own home, as long as children or animals aren't being harmed. I don't know anyone outside of religious fanatics who want to persecute homosexuals.

What I have a problem with, is this culture of sexual deviancy, and your sex life being shoved in our faces and being constantly promoted, and the attempt to pervert and destroy national traditions.

[Caraani]

Why do you think I'm trying to convince you? If you express bigotry, I will counter it with logic and reason. If you fail to see the logic and reason in what I say, that's frankly your problem, not mine. If the byproduct of my countering is that you see some of the logic and reason I intended to spread, then hurrah! But if you truly didn't care this much, if it truly meant nothing to you, why do you feel the need to respond? I mean, feel absolutely free to respond to every post you see, but something must be ruffling your feathers (there's the feather) that you have decided to come here and engage with me. I mean, you seem fairly certain of your views... right?

I mean, I know why I am engaging with this subject. I have a vested interest in having basic human rights as a gay man. So obviously, homophobia is something I will be highly interested and motivated in, in countering.

Quite. I am not convinced by the arguments going on here mostly due to the history of Athens vs. Sparta. On one hand you had a society that was the cultural beacon of Greece and was very cosmopolitan in how it treated people and on the other you had a society that was xenophobic to even their own people, but nonetheless a military super-power (for the times). Both societies had their pros and cons, but unlike the rest of Greece they went ever more extreme to solve the cracks in their society and failed. Athens went for radical inclusitivity to such an extent that it eroded all meaning to even be Athenian or special in some way and even their enemies would be allowed to vote (which naturally was NOT to the benefit of those living there) and it collapsed to outsiders. Sparta by comparison only trusted Dorian people and the ideas thereof, but to solve their issues of a shrinking army/birth rate they must ban even the Periokoi. Even if you were spartan and had kids with a periokoi (free man/women) who's family and military history stretches back centuries fighting/dying alongside you that couple is to be exiled in disgrace. Unsuprisingly Sparta died off, but so did Athens. One died of starvation of people and the other died choking its lungs with people.

...I'll take bad history takes for 500.
Maybe learning history from memes isn't good? Since Sparta was briefly part of a league of cities that were disgruntled with the Athenian hegemony, and then went back to being a backwater cesspool. The reality is that Syracuse was not only stronger than Sparta, it probably surpassed Athens in the 400s.

[Esalia]

You can't disagree that someone is gay. If an individual is homophobic, they view people who are LGBT as lesser or as repugnant, or unworthy of the same rights and respect as heterosexuals; this extends far further than disagreements. Homophobia inherently means that the level of respect is far far less, you cannot truly respect a member of the LBGT as a homophobe. Anybody who is a homophobe but says that they respect homosexuals are lying to themselves and to you

There is the possibility that they think it's a sin and treat it the same way they treat any other sin. Which would make respect possible.

Depends on how exactly they're treating sins and what they're calling a sin.

I don't believe that you can genuinely respect someone and believe that a core part of them means that they're inherently more evil, or are doing an evil thing just by going about their day-to-day life.

And if the sins are so unimportant that you can hold someone routinely sinning because it is a core, unchangeable part of who they are as somehow not lesser, then I question the point of sins and declaring it a sin in the first place.

[Istoreya]

I'm not a conservative, nor a Christian. Most people, including me, could care less what people do behind closed doors in the privacy of their own home, as long as children or animals aren't being harmed. I don't know anyone outside of religious fanatics who want to persecute homosexuals.

What I have a problem with, is this culture of sexual deviancy, and your sex life being shoved in our faces and being constantly promoted, and the attempt to pervert and destroy national traditions.

So what do you think about the Japanese Penis Festival?

[Daarwyrth]

Quite. I am not convinced by the arguments going on here mostly due to the history of Athens vs. Sparta. On one hand you had a society that was the cultural beacon of Greece and was very cosmopolitan in how it treated people and on the other you had a society that was xenophobic to even their own people, but nonetheless a military super-power (for the times). Both societies had their pros and cons, but unlike the rest of Greece they went ever more extreme to solve the cracks in their society and failed. Athens went for radical inclusitivity to such an extent that it eroded all meaning to even be Athenian or special in some way and even their enemies would be allowed to vote (which naturally was NOT to the benefit of those living there) and it collapsed to outsiders. Sparta by comparison only trusted Dorian people and the ideas thereof, but to solve their issues of a shrinking army/birth rate they must ban even the Periokoi. Even if you were spartan and had kids with a periokoi (free man/women) who's family and military history stretches back centuries fighting/dying alongside you that couple is to be exiled in disgrace. Unsuprisingly Sparta died off, but so did Athens. One died of starvation of people and the other died choking its lungs with people.

And you failed to convince me with your little tale of two cities, so I guess we both accomplished very little here!

It's simple really, the stronger the conservatives push back against equality and inclusivity, the stronger the opposite side will do so as well. It really takes so little effort to accept everyone around you as an equal (unless you have a superiority complex). I have no qualms about you being conservative, or any conservative for that matter. As long as conservatives don't actively seek to infringe upon my rights, by forcefully imposing their ideals upon others. We can literally just coexist as equals if you let us.

[Greater Mobile]

Why do you think I'm trying to convince you? If you express bigotry, I will counter it with logic and reason. If you fail to see the logic and reason in what I say, that's frankly your problem, not mine. If the byproduct of my countering is that you see some of the logic and reason I intended to spread, then hurrah! But if you truly didn't care this much, if it truly meant nothing to you, why do you feel the need to respond? I mean, feel absolutely free to respond to every post you see, but something must be ruffling your feathers (there's the feather) that you have decided to come here and engage with me. I mean, you seem fairly certain of your views... right?

I mean, I know why I am engaging with this subject. I have a vested interest in having basic human rights as a gay man. So obviously, homophobia is something I will be highly interested and motivated in, in countering.

Quite. I am not convinced by the arguments going on here mostly due to the history of Athens vs. Sparta. On one hand you had a society that was the cultural beacon of Greece and was very cosmopolitan in how it treated people and on the other you had a society that was xenophobic to even their own people, but nonetheless a military super-power (for the times). Both societies had their pros and cons, but unlike the rest of Greece they went ever more extreme to solve the cracks in their society and failed. Athens went for radical inclusitivity to such an extent that it eroded all meaning to even be Athenian or special in some way and even their enemies would be allowed to vote (which naturally was NOT to the benefit of those living there) and it collapsed to outsiders. Sparta by comparison only trusted Dorian people and the ideas thereof, but to solve their issues of a shrinking army/birth rate they must ban even the Periokoi. Even if you were spartan and had kids with a periokoi (free man/women) who's family and military history stretches back centuries fighting/dying alongside you that couple is to be exiled in disgrace. Unsuprisingly Sparta died off, but so did Athens. One died of starvation of people and the other died choking its lungs with people.

Not trying to be overtly contentious here, but this entire paragraph is just nonsensical faux intellectualism. The history of Sparta and Athens (Both of which by the way were very open to sexual acts among males) has absolutely nothing to do with the debate as to whether or not gay people should be treated as free and equal individuals in our society.

In your analogy, gay people are not the “outsiders” and “enemies” in Athens. They are Athenians.

[The New California Republic]

I
What I have a problem with, is this culture of sexual deviancy, and your sex life being shoved in our faces and being constantly promoted, and the attempt to pervert and destroy national traditions.

Vague accusations are vague.

[Gongsi]

Quite. I am not convinced by the arguments going on here mostly due to the history of Athens vs. Sparta. On one hand you had a society that was the cultural beacon of Greece and was very cosmopolitan in how it treated people and on the other you had a society that was xenophobic to even their own people, but nonetheless a military super-power (for the times). Both societies had their pros and cons, but unlike the rest of Greece they went ever more extreme to solve the cracks in their society and failed. Athens went for radical inclusitivity to such an extent that it eroded all meaning to even be Athenian or special in some way and even their enemies would be allowed to vote (which naturally was NOT to the benefit of those living there) and it collapsed to outsiders. Sparta by comparison only trusted Dorian people and the ideas thereof, but to solve their issues of a shrinking army/birth rate they must ban even the Periokoi. Even if you were spartan and had kids with a periokoi (free man/women) who's family and military history stretches back centuries fighting/dying alongside you that couple is to be exiled in disgrace. Unsuprisingly Sparta died off, but so did Athens. One died of starvation of people and the other died choking its lungs with people.

And that is why I am a moderate and opposed to radicalism of any kind. Too much of anything is poison. That is why I think it is good to have opposition in all things, to keep a balance and not fall off the edge. I think neither conservatives nor liberals should vanish, but rather my hope is that both sides can simmer down a bit and end this war of hate and violence.

[Loeje]

There is the possibility that they think it's a sin and treat it the same way they treat any other sin. Which would make respect possible.

Depends on how exactly they're treating sins and what they're calling a sin.

I don't believe that you can genuinely respect someone and believe that a core part of them means that they're inherently more evil, or are doing an evil thing just by going about their day-to-day life.

And if the sins are so unimportant that you can hold someone routinely sinning because it is a core, unchangeable part of who they are as somehow not lesser, then I question the point of sins and declaring it a sin in the first place.

Calling it a sin is a little silly, but even if it is a sin, it is absolutely possible to still treat people the same way because everyone is equally evil.

[Daarwyrth]

What I have a problem with, is this culture of sexual deviancy, and your sex life being shoved in our faces and being constantly promoted, and the attempt to pervert and destroy national traditions.

Literally turn on the TV and heterosexuality is pouring in through every single pixel of your device. Love Island, Temptation Island, Hotel Paradise, it's all about horny heterosexuals humping one another every chance they get. And yet it's the gays that are parading their sexuality in other people's faces, right... it's not like every single movie, or every single tv series is loaded with men and women going at it with one another whenever there is an opportunity. Literally everything in society is catered towards heterosexuals, and yet when gay people demand the tiniest piece of the cake, we're suddenly pushing our sexuality in other people's faces.