Can Homophobia Be Justified?

[Istoreya]

Lmao, where did I say I was claiming he was against LGBT people? I think you need your joke detector tweaking 'cause it's not going off when it should be.

Let me go into more detail.

"I don't think LGBT people deserve rights, they are unnatural and I hate them"
"I disagree with you"
"HATRED! 'TOLERANT LEFT'! BIGOTRY! WHY WON'T YOU ACCEPT MY OPINIONS??"

So initially I thought you were referring to Tundra. Thats what I meant by "he".
However I read a little closer and concluded that you're referring to people whom you're opposed to.

You imply that everyone on that side hates LGBT people and believes they dont deserve rights. I'm inclined to believe this is untrue for a good chunk of this crowd.

Additionally, "I disagree with you" is an under exaggeration. There is very obviously more nuance to how you react to the other side. You view the other side as hostiles, hateful bigot nazis etc., this is pretty obvious.

Your statement was exaggerated.
Or, if it was a joke, it was unfunny enough so that I wouldn't perceive it as one. Not trying to be offensive, thats just what was going on in my mind.

Please point to where I say everyone on the right hates LGBT people.
That's right, it doesn't exist, because my joke was about a homophobe, not right-wing people, because they are not the same thing. It says more about you than it does about me that I make a joke about homophobes and you assume I mean right-wing people.

[Genivaria]

Sorry is there any evidence that gay people are gearing up to put the straights in camps, as was initially suggested to set off this stupid line of discussion, or are you just bored and seeing if you can pick a fight with any of the people dogpiling Novokria’s ridiculous posts

I presumed he was talking about attacks on free speech, though considering Novokria's track record I wouldn't be touting myself as a defender of all that he says.

Yes, the persecution complex I mentioned before.

[Tundra Terra]

While i do enjoy the occasional sneer contest with certain ladies. I am making a general comment on the thread as a whole so why is your panties up in a bunch Daar?

Oh you know, people thinking you are a lesser being because someone a few thousand years ago said a man loving a man is sinful or abominable. Conservative bigotry brings out the worst in me (or the best, depending on your point of view) but apparently, I ruffled your panties enough to have made a comment in this thread! So, what's bothering you, honey?

Loaded springs...they're the worst. Perhaps even more than feathers?
I'm just wondering since you happen to be the first responder how is exactly logic going to overthrow bigotry? If i happen to be this homophobic conservative why would i care for that person's argument in the first place?

Granted this is the internet where emotion reigns supreme more often than not, yet most arguments for either side seem to be rather weak as i read on (i'm nearly done).
How do you plan to convince this (not homophobic), but nonetheless opposing conservative who is talking to you now?

[Daarwyrth]

You imply that everyone on that side hates LGBT people and believes they dont deserve rights. I'm inclined to believe this is untrue for a good chunk of this crowd.

Oh no, no, that's what conservatives tend to do with minorities. They're the ones creating harmful stereotypes about, for example, gay people. Let me remind you from a few pages ago:

"Accept drag queen story time and half naked men with cock lollipops parading infront of your children or you're literally Hitler and should have your life destroyed." - the "tolerant" left.

[Insaanistan]

Calling Israel an apartheid state is not a comment on Holocaust survivors. The state of Israel is not a Holocaust survivor. Countries aren't people.

But it is made from people who were actually there or were direct decendents of people who were there.

Aaand?
If I disapprove of of Armenia’s blatant Islamophobia, am I disrespecting survivors of the Armenian Genocide?
If I complain about Buhari, am I disrespecting the martyrs of the Biafran War?

[National Capitalist United States]

I presumed he was talking about attacks on free speech, though considering Novokria's track record I wouldn't be touting myself as a defender of all that he says.

Yes, the persecution complex I mentioned before.

Why do they think we're going to install a globalist totalitarian communist dictatorship were LGBT members are at the top of society?

[Istoreya]

Oh no, no, that's what conservatives tend to do with minorities. They're the ones creating harmful stereotypes about, for example, gay people. Let me remind you from a few pages ago:

Uuuuh. I think your quote dun goofed there.

[Ifreann]

Calling Israel an apartheid state is not a comment on Holocaust survivors. The state of Israel is not a Holocaust survivor. Countries aren't people.

But it is made from people who were actually there or were direct decendents of people who were there.

The population of Israel is not exclusively made up of Holocaust survivors and their direct descendants.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

No. Irrational fear and hatred for people’s immutable traits like sexuality is never justified.

Having bounced around the political spectrum like a pinball, I still don't understand where all this weird nonsense is coming from. Why must everything be so inflated out of proportion that it floats far away from reality? This stuff is like "slippery-slope" turned up to 11!

The slippery slope has been proven to be true in regards to LGBT stuff in the west tbh. Conservatives were right that it wouldn't stop with gay marriage, and I think that's played a large part in pushback against trans people.

Not exactly, the slippery slope was that once gay marriage had widespread public support and became legal then pedophilia and beastiality would then have the same widespread public support and would also become legal, and outside of incredibly fringe and maligned groups of people neither of those things have become widely supported or legalized and don’t look to receive widespread support or legalization anytime even remotely soon. Trans support and recognition would be literally the only thing they were “right” on and trans support and recognition is hardly on the same level as child and animal abuse, even tho some folks tend to keep trying to put them on the same level.

[Tsarus 2142]

Let me go into more detail.



So initially I thought you were referring to Tundra. Thats what I meant by "he".
However I read a little closer and concluded that you're referring to people whom you're opposed to.

You imply that everyone on that side hates LGBT people and believes they dont deserve rights. I'm inclined to believe this is untrue for a good chunk of this crowd.

Additionally, "I disagree with you" is an under exaggeration. There is very obviously more nuance to how you react to the other side. You view the other side as hostiles, hateful bigot nazis etc., this is pretty obvious.

Your statement was exaggerated.
Or, if it was a joke, it was unfunny enough so that I wouldn't perceive it as one. Not trying to be offensive, thats just what was going on in my mind.

Please point to where I say everyone on the right hates LGBT people.
That's right, it doesn't exist, because my joke was about a homophobe, not right-wing people, because they are not the same thing. It says more about you than it does about me that I make a joke about homophobes and you assume I mean right-wing people.

My assumptions were related specifically to this thread and not to right wingers as a whole. Apologies for not making that clear.
But you state here that those opposed to you and others, in this thread, are also homophobic thus concluding a few of my statements.
You are assuming that everyone not in agreement with the majority here immediately hates LGBT people, and wants to oppress them
You also are going on the offensive with the opposition by labelling them as homophobes.
I believe this is unfair.

[Daarwyrth]

Oh you know, people thinking you are a lesser being because someone a few thousand years ago said a man loving a man is sinful or abominable. Conservative bigotry brings out the worst in me (or the best, depending on your point of view) but apparently, I ruffled your panties enough to have made a comment in this thread! So, what's bothering you, honey?

Loaded springs...they're the worst. Perhaps even more than feathers?
I'm just wondering since you happen to be the first responder how is exactly logic going to overthrow bigotry? If i happen to be this homophobic conservative why would i care for that person's argument in the first place?

Granted this is the internet where emotion reigns supreme more often than not, yet most arguments for either side seem to be rather weak as i read on (i'm nearly done).
How do you plan to convince this (not homophobic), but nonetheless opposing conservative who is talking to you now?

Why do you think I'm trying to convince you? If you express bigotry, I will counter it with logic and reason. If you fail to see the logic and reason in what I say, that's frankly your problem, not mine. If the byproduct of my countering is that you see some of the logic and reason I intended to spread, then hurrah! But if you truly didn't care this much, if it truly meant nothing to you, why do you feel the need to respond? I mean, feel absolutely free to respond to every post you see, but something must be ruffling your feathers (there's the feather) that you have decided to come here and engage with me. I mean, you seem fairly certain of your views... right?

I mean, I know why I am engaging with this subject. I have a vested interest in having basic human rights as a gay man. So obviously, homophobia is something I will be highly interested and motivated in, in countering.

[Silvedania]

Who's 'he'?

guy you were referencing

Or the people opposed to you and others

To my knowledge, Istoreya wasn't referencing anyone. Just satirizing the argument of this thread.

[SD_Film Artists]

But it is made from people who were actually there or were direct decendents of people who were there.

It's strange that you implied I was acting like LGBT people have some 'get out of jail free card's when that's exactly what you're doing with the state of Israel.

That's the hypocrisy that I was pointing out- you imply that any connection between LGBT people/allies and authoritarianism is 'fucking gross' simply because LGBT people (gay people specifically) were victims of the holocaust, and yet many who'd call themselves allies of LGBT apparently have no issue with making the same 'fucking gross' argument towards Jewish Israelis- many of whom were actually in the holocaust camps rather than simply sharing a sexual identity with those who were.

[Istoreya]

Please point to where I say everyone on the right hates LGBT people.
That's right, it doesn't exist, because my joke was about a homophobe, not right-wing people, because they are not the same thing. It says more about you than it does about me that I make a joke about homophobes and you assume I mean right-wing people.

My assumptions were related specifically to this thread and not to right wingers as a whole. Apologies for not making that clear.
But you state here that those opposed to you and others, in this thread, are also homophobic thus concluding a few of my statements.
You are assuming that everyone not in agreement with the majority here immediately hates LGBT people, and wants to oppress them
You also are going on the offensive with the opposition by labelling them as homophobes.
I believe this is unfair.

Not believing gay people should have rights = homophobia. So how exactly is it unfair to label people who are against LGBT rights homophobic?

[Tsarus 2142]

My assumptions were related specifically to this thread and not to right wingers as a whole. Apologies for not making that clear.
But you state here that those opposed to you and others, in this thread, are also homophobic thus concluding a few of my statements.
You are assuming that everyone not in agreement with the majority here immediately hates LGBT people, and wants to oppress them
You also are going on the offensive with the opposition by labelling them as homophobes.
I believe this is unfair.

Not believing gay people should have rights = homophobia. So how exactly is it unfair to label people who are against LGBT rights homophobic?

Like I said...
Nevermind.

[Istoreya]

Not believing gay people should have rights = homophobia. So how exactly is it unfair to label people who are against LGBT rights homophobic?

Like I said...
Nevermind.

No, go on. Back up your point. Please explain to me
1) How it is unfair to call a homophobe a homophobe?
2) Where I assume that all right-wingers are homophobic?

Because it is not unfair, and I did not assume. Like I said, go get your joke detector fixed, because it's out of whack.

[Genivaria]

It's strange that you implied I was acting like LGBT people have some 'get out of jail free card's when that's exactly what you're doing with the state of Israel.

That's the hypocrisy that I was pointing out- you imply that any connection between LGBT people/allies and authoritarianism is 'fucking gross' simply because LGBT people (gay people specifically) were victims of the holocaust, and yet many who'd call themselves allies of LGBT apparently have no issue with making the same 'fucking gross' argument towards Jewish Israelis- many of whom were actually in the holocaust camps rather than simply sharing a sexual identity with those who were.

Then you continue to misunderstand.

And again you're falsely equating 'Jews' with the illegal actions of the government of Israel.

[Tsarus 2142]

Like I said...
Nevermind.

No, go on. Back up your point. Please explain to me
1) How it is unfair to call a homophobe a homophobe?
2) Where I assume that all right-wingers are homophobic?

Because it is not unfair, and I did not assume. Like I said, go get your joke detector fixed, because it's out of whack.

1. Because not everyone here that you claim is homophobic is ACTUALLY homophobic, they dont ACTUALLY hate and believe LGBT should be oppressed
2. For goodness sake read what I said! I never was talking about right wingers.

[Daarwyrth]

My assumptions were related specifically to this thread and not to right wingers as a whole. Apologies for not making that clear.
But you state here that those opposed to you and others, in this thread, are also homophobic thus concluding a few of my statements.
You are assuming that everyone not in agreement with the majority here immediately hates LGBT people, and wants to oppress them
You also are going on the offensive with the opposition by labelling them as homophobes.
I believe this is unfair.

Homophobes have no qualms about saying things like this about us:

"Accept drag queen story time and half naked men with cock lollipops parading infront of your children or you're literally Hitler and should have your life destroyed." - the "tolerant" left.

Somehow I don't see you criticising them for propagating harmful stereotypes about gay people?

[Greater Mobile]

Oh you know, people thinking you are a lesser being because someone a few thousand years ago said a man loving a man is sinful or abominable. Conservative bigotry brings out the worst in me (or the best, depending on your point of view) but apparently, I ruffled your panties enough to have made a comment in this thread! So, what's bothering you, honey?

Loaded springs...they're the worst. Perhaps even more than feathers?
I'm just wondering since you happen to be the first responder how is exactly logic going to overthrow bigotry? If i happen to be this homophobic conservative why would i care for that person's argument in the first place?

Granted this is the internet where emotion reigns supreme more often than not, yet most arguments for either side seem to be rather weak as i read on (i'm nearly done).
How do you plan to convince this (not homophobic), but nonetheless opposing conservative who is talking to you now?

“I’m not homophobic, I’m just opposed to the argument that gay people and straight people should be equals”

[Istoreya]

No, go on. Back up your point. Please explain to me
1) How it is unfair to call a homophobe a homophobe?
2) Where I assume that all right-wingers are homophobic?

Because it is not unfair, and I did not assume. Like I said, go get your joke detector fixed, because it's out of whack.

1. Because not everyone here that you claim is homophobic is ACTUALLY homophobic, they dont ACTUALLY hate and believe LGBT should be oppressed
2. For goodness sake read what I said! I never was talking about right wingers.

Lmao, you're the one getting pissy about someone not reading your posts when you haven't even read mine to realise I was making a J.O.K.E. and never claimed anyone in this thread specifically was homophobic with said joke.

[Daarwyrth]

Loaded springs...they're the worst. Perhaps even more than feathers?
I'm just wondering since you happen to be the first responder how is exactly logic going to overthrow bigotry? If i happen to be this homophobic conservative why would i care for that person's argument in the first place?

Granted this is the internet where emotion reigns supreme more often than not, yet most arguments for either side seem to be rather weak as i read on (i'm nearly done).
How do you plan to convince this (not homophobic), but nonetheless opposing conservative who is talking to you now?

“I’m not homophobic, I’m just opposed to the argument that gay people and straight people should be equals”

"My brother once told me that nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts." - Benjen Stark

It really is amusing when conservatives tell me "I am not homophobic, BUT why should you have the same rights as me?". It's a coping mechanism to convince themselves that they're still good people, even if they hate certain people for the most mundane things.

[Tsarus 2142]

My assumptions were related specifically to this thread and not to right wingers as a whole. Apologies for not making that clear.
But you state here that those opposed to you and others, in this thread, are also homophobic thus concluding a few of my statements.
You are assuming that everyone not in agreement with the majority here immediately hates LGBT people, and wants to oppress them
You also are going on the offensive with the opposition by labelling them as homophobes.
I believe this is unfair.

Homophobes have no qualms about saying things like this about us:

"Accept drag queen story time and half naked men with cock lollipops parading infront of your children or you're literally Hitler and should have your life destroyed." - the "tolerant" left.

Somehow I don't see you criticising them for propagating harmful stereotypes about gay people?

I believe that Goatmoon is talking about LGBT culture, which is separate from the LGBT individual.
I've previously discussed this, my conclusion being that it is valid to disdain a dominant culture surrounding an individuals identity.
Personally, I do not disdain anyone for being LGBT as it is a mere trait.
I do disdain the surrounding culture, I believe hypersexuality is a negative thing.

[Daarwyrth]

Homophobes have no qualms about saying things like this about us:



Somehow I don't see you criticising them for propagating harmful stereotypes about gay people?

I believe that Goatmoon is talking about LGBT culture, which is separate from the LGBT individual.
I've previously discussed this, my conclusion being that it is valid to disdain a dominant culture surrounding an individuals identity.
Personally, I do not disdain anyone for being LGBT as it is a mere trait.
I do disdain the surrounding culture, I believe hypersexuality is a negative thing.

So, let me translate what you just said to me: "Stereotyping is really bad if liberals/lefties/LGBTQ'ers do it, but it's okay when we conservatives harmfully stereotype minorities! Because we mean it well."

That is how your post came across.

[Silvedania]

“I’m not homophobic, I’m just opposed to the argument that gay people and straight people should be equals”

"My brother once told me that nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts." - Benjen Stark

It really is amusing when conservatives tell me "I am not homophobic, BUT why should you have the same rights as me?". It's a coping mechanism to convince themselves that they're still good people, even if they hate certain people for the most mundane things.

We shouldn't say conservatives, since that's a little rude to assume all conservatives are homophobic.