Can Homophobia Be Justified?

[Nakena]

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

Mhm. And the founding member claiming the group has a "historic mission" to lead the "white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival ... a crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen"? Is that propaganda too?

Sauce me up on that.

[Novokria]

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

What would be your definition of the Azov Battalion?

an Ultra-Nationalist Defense Force fighting against Russian imperialists

[Caraani]

I mean, I thought that free expression meant I didn’t require justifications, even for views considered “hateful”, but y’know, poor Johnny got his feelings hurt, so therefore people say we need to restrict “hate speech”.

I personally believe that the concept of free speech/expression negates the need for a justification of any kind, no matter what beliefs are espoused. However, when Silicon Valley billionaires have a death grip on pretty much all media, free speech is dead.

Stop pandering to SJWs and cancel culture, and for god sakes don’t feel so offended if someone calls you a name/slur. They’re just words, treat them as such.

Luckily we don't all live in the half-baked attempt at creating a dystopian world in real life known as the United States of America, and where I am from if you cause someone to kill themselves with your homophobic s**t you can go to jail.

[Nakena]

What would be your definition of the Azov Battalion?

an Ultra-Nationalist Defense Force fighting against Russian imperialists

Fair enough. So I interpret it, you take issue with the noun "Fascist"?

[Punished UMN]

This whig history -- the idea that advancement towards what is good is inevitable -- is why the LGBT rights movement is failing in these countries. The LGBT rights movement in the West was successful, after decades of fighting, because it was able to win people over using domestically appealing ideas and, eventually, making allies in high places that were sympathetic and viewed the LGBT rights movement as a valuable demographic to court. That is to say, the LGBT movement increased its political capital by investing it in transactions which gained them a net-increase in their political capital.

In many other parts of the globe, the LGBT movement has failed because it has transplanted Western ideology and rhetoric to countries that don't value them, and in doing so, has directly challenged the regimes (by which I mean the state ideology rather than those in power) in these countries, which undermines the state and the government and alienated large segments of the population. Instead of trying to form alliance with groups that have clout and which might be able to help them, the movement, again following the poor judgement of Western governments that have co-opted them to the detriment of the movement, has instead made alliances with anti-regime types, which has provoked strong responses from powers-that-be that otherwise might not give a shit. When my Arab and Russian friends criticize the LGBT rights movement, it's actually almost never about the principles of the movement, but rather about how their political strategy is harmful to the country. A quote that stands out from a Saudi friend: "No one here cares that her [an activist] fucks women, but we're not gonna sympathize with her as she picks fights with powerful Muftis on social media even after they have tacitly supported her."

I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm saying they're not fucking working.

I'm sure your Arab and Russian friends won't call you a f****t and tell you as far as they are concerned what you do is disgusting and wrong, if you tell them you're gay. If they don't instantly block you. Because I too spoke with people from these parts of the world. I've been to them too. The idea that these people will somehow miraculously overlook the fact that someone is gay or lesbian, if they prove themselves to be allies of the population, is pure fantasy. It's a nice fantasy, for sure; but that's all it is, fantastic, fictional.
Neither am I saying that the local activists should apply western models of thought in their own countries - which by the way, they are not doing. They should continue to do what they are actually doing, which is show themselves, and make themselves noticed, so that the people who despise them understand that they aren't actually "white people" or "westernised people" or "traitors" but their sons and daughters, and put their money where their mouth is.
So no, what you're saying is said from the comfortable position of a straight dude who can theorise about gay people all he wishes. The reality is that those most likely straight friends of yours consider being "neutral" about gay people as having ideas such as "as long as they don't show their faces and shut up about it they can exist". As for my ideas about history, well, they seem to be working. Especially since gay people are more and more a desirable economic demographic, and they're starting to express their opinions with their feet, and with their wallets.

Except that's not what they're doing and it's not been their political strategy. Their political strategy has been to get money from the state department and make condemnations of things like the Annexation of Crimea of all things, and to even publicly insult people who were on their side (the activist from said quote actually insulted a Mufti who said that putting her (a transwoman) in a men's prison was inappropriate and harmful). The problem the LGBT rights movement is having in these countries is that they're not playing the game. Politics is transaction, you gotta scratch other people's backs if you want them to scratch yours, and the strategy unfortunately many have taken has been to go to powerful groups in the country and say "fuck you! Hey, why are you not scratching my back?"

[Novokria]

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

Mhm. And the founding member claiming the group has a "historic mission" to lead the "white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival ... a crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen"? Is that propaganda too?

Also, what do you mean by "Anti-European"?

Most news in controlled by either Russians or Americans and both want to destroy Europe

[San Lumen]

What would be your definition of the Azov Battalion?

an Ultra-Nationalist Defense Force fighting against Russian imperialists

Not relevant to the topic. What makes you think clergy will be forced to marry people they dont want too and why shouldnt same sex marriage be called as such?

Also Biden doesn't have the power to make law.

[Punished UMN]

No, we're discussing that your political strategy has failed and you're falling back on abstract concepts and moral condemnations because you don't have a back-up plan for actually convincing people on the ground to support LGBT people.

I don't need to convince people on the ground to support LGBT people. Please check what we were actually talking about.

Yeah, you do, whether you want to or not, because those people on the ground are the ones who influence their governments to support LGBT rights.

[An-Tanwir]

Mhm. And the founding member claiming the group has a "historic mission" to lead the "white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival ... a crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen"? Is that propaganda too?

Sauce me up on that.

Richard Sawka's book "Frontline Ukraine: Crisis in the Borderlands" is where I found it

[Nakena]

Mhm. And the founding member claiming the group has a "historic mission" to lead the "white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival ... a crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen"? Is that propaganda too?

Also, what do you mean by "Anti-European"?

Most news in controlled by either Russians or Americans and both want to destroy Europe

No it isn't. Theres enough europeans who want to destroy Europe. Weird eh?

[Caraani]

This whig history -- the idea that advancement towards what is good is inevitable -- is why the LGBT rights movement is failing in these countries. The LGBT rights movement in the West was successful, after decades of fighting, because it was able to win people over using domestically appealing ideas and, eventually, making allies in high places that were sympathetic and viewed the LGBT rights movement as a valuable demographic to court. That is to say, the LGBT movement increased its political capital by investing it in transactions which gained them a net-increase in their political capital.

In many other parts of the globe, the LGBT movement has failed because it has transplanted Western ideology and rhetoric to countries that don't value them, and in doing so, has directly challenged the regimes (by which I mean the state ideology rather than those in power) in these countries, which undermines the state and the government and alienated large segments of the population. Instead of trying to form alliance with groups that have clout and which might be able to help them, the movement, again following the poor judgement of Western governments that have co-opted them to the detriment of the movement, has instead made alliances with anti-regime types, which has provoked strong responses from powers-that-be that otherwise might not give a shit. When my Arab and Russian friends criticize the LGBT rights movement, it's actually almost never about the principles of the movement, but rather about how their political strategy is harmful to the country. A quote that stands out from a Saudi friend: "No one here cares that her [an activist] fucks women, but we're not gonna sympathize with her as she picks fights with powerful Muftis on social media even after they have tacitly supported her."

I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm saying they're not fucking working.

^This. Worth noting that the LGBT groups in Russia for example sided with the old oligarchs and "Westernizers" in Russian politics in the 90's and early 2000's which not only pissed off the emerging new Russian regime (initiated by Putin) but also huge swaths of the Russian population who blamed those oligarchs and Westernizers for all the suffering that they had to go through in the 90's when Russia was close to becoming a failed state. That is among the reasons why there was such a quick and extreme backlash. Not even the Russian Orthodox Church was able to curtail it and for awhile the Church was actually kind of okay with gay people until they started attacking the Church directly.

Check my answer. It's always good to hear Eastern European mental gymnastics about why the state can deny me equal rights under the law, after I pay my taxes to said state.

[Novokria]

an Ultra-Nationalist Defense Force fighting against Russian imperialists

Fair enough. So I interpret it, you take issue with the noun "Fascist"?

No most of them are not Fascists i'm against Democracy myself but they are not like the Italian Fascists or German Nazis

[Punished UMN]

Nevermind. Novokria's sig says theyre "Anti-Judaism". Also says theyre "Pro-Azov", which is a fascist paramilitary org in Ukraine. This guy is full Nazi.

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

I see we are back to "#therearenonazisinukraine", is it 2014 again?

[The Marlborough]

I mean the Russians actively went from celebrating a lesbian pop duo and using their popularity in Russia to dunk on America for being homophobic to wanting to beat up gay people because a lot of Russian LGBT groups and figures decided to back the wrong people in the early to mid 2000's power struggles in Russian politics. Same thing with the Church. It's one thing to call out the church for not living up to an ideal another to basically call for its destruction.

Also I wouldn't toot that horn too loud about your approach working.

[Punished UMN]

^This. Worth noting that the LGBT groups in Russia for example sided with the old oligarchs and "Westernizers" in Russian politics in the 90's and early 2000's which not only pissed off the emerging new Russian regime (initiated by Putin) but also huge swaths of the Russian population who blamed those oligarchs and Westernizers for all the suffering that they had to go through in the 90's when Russia was close to becoming a failed state. That is among the reasons why there was such a quick and extreme backlash. Not even the Russian Orthodox Church was able to curtail it and for awhile the Church was actually kind of okay with gay people until they started attacking the Church directly.

Check my answer. It's always good to hear Eastern European mental gymnastics about why the state can deny me equal rights under the law, after I pay my taxes to said state.

Mental gymnastics or not, you have to work with those people to advance your agenda, because they're not going away.

[Novokria]

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

I see we are back to "#therearenonazisinukraine", is it 2014 again?

Yes sure some are Nazis but most are just against Russian Imperialism

[The Marlborough]

^This. Worth noting that the LGBT groups in Russia for example sided with the old oligarchs and "Westernizers" in Russian politics in the 90's and early 2000's which not only pissed off the emerging new Russian regime (initiated by Putin) but also huge swaths of the Russian population who blamed those oligarchs and Westernizers for all the suffering that they had to go through in the 90's when Russia was close to becoming a failed state. That is among the reasons why there was such a quick and extreme backlash. Not even the Russian Orthodox Church was able to curtail it and for awhile the Church was actually kind of okay with gay people until they started attacking the Church directly.

Check my answer. It's always good to hear Eastern European mental gymnastics about why the state can deny me equal rights under the law, after I pay my taxes to said state.

How the relationship between the state and citizens is seen is vastly different in Eastern Europe than it is in the West. Simply shouting "I pay my taxes" isn't enough. That doesn't even work in all Western countries, that's basically limited to the US and to a lesser extent Canada and Britain.

[An-Tanwir]

Fair enough. So I interpret it, you take issue with the noun "Fascist"?

No most of them are not Fascists i'm against Democracy myself but they are not like the Italian Fascists or German Nazis

Their symbol is literally a combination of the Nazi Black Sun and the symbol of the 2nd SS panzer division. Theyre neonazis.

[Russiyskaya Respublica]

What would be your definition of the Azov Battalion?

an Ultra-Nationalist Defense Force fighting against Russian imperialists

Ultra-nationalists are fascists.

[Punished UMN]

I see we are back to "#therearenonazisinukraine", is it 2014 again?

Yes sure some are Nazis but most are just against Russian Imperialism

That's why your sig says you're a Banderite, right? The guy who massacred tens of thousands of Ethnic Poles and was allied briefly with Nazi Germany? And why you say you're anti-Poland and anti-Judaism, right? And why you support Svoboda, which is a rebranding of the National Socialist Party of Ukraine, yeah? Do you think I can't do word-association games lmao

[Novokria]

No most of them are not Fascists i'm against Democracy myself but they are not like the Italian Fascists or German Nazis

Their symbol is literally a combination of the Nazi Black Sun and the symbol of the 2nd SS panzer division. Theyre neonazis.

Sure it may have a Neo-Nazi background but most are just Ultra-Nationalists

[An-Tanwir]

I see we are back to "#therearenonazisinukraine", is it 2014 again?

Yes sure some are Nazis but most are just against Russian Imperialism

And what about you? Your sig says you're "anti-judaism"

[An-Tanwir]

Their symbol is literally a combination of the Nazi Black Sun and the symbol of the 2nd SS panzer division. Theyre neonazis.

Sure it may have a Neo-Nazi background but most are just Ultra-Nationalists

Ultranationalism and fascism are the same thing.

[The Marlborough]

Tbf Russian imperialism wouldn't be so bad for Ukraine. Hell, Belarus annexing Ukraine would be an improvement. I'm pretty certain the quality of life inside the Chernobyl sarcophagus is better than in huge swaths of Ukraine.

[Caraani]

I don't need to convince people on the ground to support LGBT people. Please check what we were actually talking about.

Yeah, you do, whether you want to or not, because those people on the ground are the ones who influence their governments to support LGBT rights.

Actually, I don't. People aren't convinced with words, most of the time. They're convinced by seeing and interacting with gay people. Again, looking forward to you tell me how this function.