Can Homophobia Be Justified?

[Novokria]

oh you are a Cultural-Marxist? this World belongs to God weather you like it or not.

Do religious institutions not have the right to refuse to marry same sex couples therefore why shouldnt it occur in a church? Are you against LGBT adoption too?

Well a lot of government officials probably will make Churches allow for such things in the future and no because children need parents its better to be adopted by gay people than to be left abandoned

[Istoreya]

Do religious institutions not have the right to refuse to marry same sex couples therefore why shouldnt it occur in a church? Are you against LGBT adoption too?

Well a lot of government officials probably will make Churches allow for such things in the future and no because children need parents its better to be adopted by gay people than to be left abandoned

"In the future"? I don't know what planet you live on but many churches already have the choice to allow or not allow same-sex marriages.

[An-Tanwir]

oh you are a Cultural-Marxist? this World belongs to God weather you like it or not.

Oh god. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, or if you're just parroting terms you've heard from other anti-lgbt activists, but the term "Cultural-Marxism" refers to an antisemetic conspiracy theory that was spread by, yes, Nazi Germany.

Nevermind. Novokria's sig says theyre "Anti-Judaism". Also says theyre "Pro-Azov", which is a fascist paramilitary org in Ukraine. This guy is full Nazi.

[San Lumen]

Do religious institutions not have the right to refuse to marry same sex couples therefore why shouldnt it occur in a church? Are you against LGBT adoption too?

Well a lot of government officials probably will make Churches allow for such things in the future and no because children need parents its better to be adopted by gay people than to be left abandoned

I can't speak for other countries but in mine they have a right to refuse. Why shouldn't it be called a marriage?

[Novokria]

Well a lot of government officials probably will make Churches allow for such things in the future and no because children need parents its better to be adopted by gay people than to be left abandoned

"In the future"? I don't know what planet you live on but many churches already have the choice to allow or not allow same-sex marriages.

sorry but i mean government officials will probably make Churches allow gay marriages but not allow them to refuse

[Ethel mermania]

Well a lot of government officials probably will make Churches allow for such things in the future and no because children need parents its better to be adopted by gay people than to be left abandoned

"In the future"? I don't know what planet you live on but many churches already have the choice to allow or not allow same-sex marriages.

In the states anyway if we only talk about Protestants, probably more church's than dont

[An-Tanwir]

"In the future"? I don't know what planet you live on but many churches already have the choice to allow or not allow same-sex marriages.

sorry but i mean government officials will probably make Churches allow gay marriages but not allow them to refuse

No they won't.

[San Lumen]

"In the future"? I don't know what planet you live on but many churches already have the choice to allow or not allow same-sex marriages.

sorry but i mean government officials will probably make Churches allow gay marriages but not allow them to refuse

They won't that would be violation of freedom of religion. A church, mosque or synagogue refusing to marry is acceptable a county, town clerk or justice of the peace is not as it part of their job to officiate marriages.

[Novokria]

sorry but i mean government officials will probably make Churches allow gay marriages but not allow them to refuse

No they won't.

I'll give it till June before Biden changes the laws in America

[The Marlborough]

True; and yet here we are, in 2021. I said it before, and I will say it again, slavery was always terrible, and it continued to be terrible after western countries started making it illegal but other countries kept practicing it, and it kept being terrible when most countries in the world finally understood that it was a crime against humanity. Like slavery, the idea that you ought to be able to beat, kill or deny rights to homosexuals is as repulsive today as it would be 105 years ago. We'd be in the wrong, not the idea of tolerating sexual minorities.

This whig history -- the idea that advancement towards what is good is inevitable -- is why the LGBT rights movement is failing in these countries. The LGBT rights movement in the West was successful, after decades of fighting, because it was able to win people over using domestically appealing ideas and, eventually, making allies in high places that were sympathetic and viewed the LGBT rights movement as a valuable demographic to court. That is to say, the LGBT movement increased its political capital by investing it in transactions which gained them a net-increase in their political capital.

In many other parts of the globe, the LGBT movement has failed because it has transplanted Western ideology and rhetoric to countries that don't value them, and in doing so, has directly challenged the regimes (by which I mean the state ideology rather than those in power) in these countries, which undermines the state and the government and alienated large segments of the population. Instead of trying to form alliance with groups that have clout and which might be able to help them, the movement, again following the poor judgement of Western governments that have co-opted them to the detriment of the movement, has instead made alliances with anti-regime types, which has provoked strong responses from powers-that-be that otherwise might not give a shit. When my Arab and Russian friends criticize the LGBT rights movement, it's actually almost never about the principles of the movement, but rather about how their political strategy is harmful to the country. A quote that stands out from a Saudi friend: "No one here cares that her [an activist] fucks women, but we're not gonna sympathize with her as she picks fights with powerful Muftis on social media even after they have tacitly supported her."

I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm saying they're not fucking working.

^This. Worth noting that the LGBT groups in Russia for example sided with the old oligarchs and "Westernizers" in Russian politics in the 90's and early 2000's which not only pissed off the emerging new Russian regime (initiated by Putin) but also huge swaths of the Russian population who blamed those oligarchs and Westernizers for all the suffering that they had to go through in the 90's when Russia was close to becoming a failed state. That is among the reasons why there was such a quick and extreme backlash. Not even the Russian Orthodox Church was able to curtail it and for awhile the Church was actually kind of okay with gay people until they started attacking the Church directly.

[Istoreya]

"In the future"? I don't know what planet you live on but many churches already have the choice to allow or not allow same-sex marriages.

sorry but i mean government officials will probably make Churches allow gay marriages but not allow them to refuse

Well, you see, churches don't pay taxes in a lot of places, so they shouldn't really have the right to refuse service to anyone, as they aren't a business. Now, if we recognised them as businesses and got them to pay taxes...

[Esalia]

Tough shit, they are called marriage and they happen wherever the people involved want.

You can not change the definition of Marriage this not up for discussion we are not in a Liberal Utopia we are in God's World

Marriage is a word invented by humanity, and we can change it to mean whatever we want it to.

[San Lumen]

No they won't.

I'll give it till June before Biden changes the laws in America

The president cannot make law. Congress will not pass such a law and neither will any state legislature.

[Nakena]

No they won't.

I'll give it till June before Biden changes the laws in America

Thats not how it works in the US. lol.

[Istoreya]

No they won't.

I'll give it till June before Biden changes the laws in America

Sure, I'll take you up on this bet. What's the stakes?

[Ethel mermania]

sorry but i mean government officials will probably make Churches allow gay marriages but not allow them to refuse

No they won't.

You may want to look at biden's equality bill.

[Novokria]

Oh god. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, or if you're just parroting terms you've heard from other anti-lgbt activists, but the term "Cultural-Marxism" refers to an antisemetic conspiracy theory that was spread by, yes, Nazi Germany.

Nevermind. Novokria's sig says theyre "Anti-Judaism". Also says theyre "Pro-Azov", which is a fascist paramilitary org in Ukraine. This guy is full Nazi.

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

[The Alma Mater]

sorry but i mean government officials will probably make Churches allow gay marriages but not allow them to refuse

No they won't.

They will, in a sense. If a church is a place that wants to host legal marriages with the priest as the registar, they will be required to accept anyone who can legally get married. That will be an all or none choice.

Ceremonial ones they can ofc refuse. A Catholic Church does not have to host a Wiccan handfast.

[Caraani]

True; and yet here we are, in 2021. I said it before, and I will say it again, slavery was always terrible, and it continued to be terrible after western countries started making it illegal but other countries kept practicing it, and it kept being terrible when most countries in the world finally understood that it was a crime against humanity. Like slavery, the idea that you ought to be able to beat, kill or deny rights to homosexuals is as repulsive today as it would be 105 years ago. We'd be in the wrong, not the idea of tolerating sexual minorities.

This whig history -- the idea that advancement towards what is good is inevitable -- is why the LGBT rights movement is failing in these countries. The LGBT rights movement in the West was successful, after decades of fighting, because it was able to win people over using domestically appealing ideas and, eventually, making allies in high places that were sympathetic and viewed the LGBT rights movement as a valuable demographic to court. That is to say, the LGBT movement increased its political capital by investing it in transactions which gained them a net-increase in their political capital.

In many other parts of the globe, the LGBT movement has failed because it has transplanted Western ideology and rhetoric to countries that don't value them, and in doing so, has directly challenged the regimes (by which I mean the state ideology rather than those in power) in these countries, which undermines the state and the government and alienated large segments of the population. Instead of trying to form alliance with groups that have clout and which might be able to help them, the movement, again following the poor judgement of Western governments that have co-opted them to the detriment of the movement, has instead made alliances with anti-regime types, which has provoked strong responses from powers-that-be that otherwise might not give a shit. When my Arab and Russian friends criticize the LGBT rights movement, it's actually almost never about the principles of the movement, but rather about how their political strategy is harmful to the country. A quote that stands out from a Saudi friend: "No one here cares that her [an activist] fucks women, but we're not gonna sympathize with her as she picks fights with powerful Muftis on social media even after they have tacitly supported her."

I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I'm saying they're not fucking working.

I'm sure your Arab and Russian friends won't call you a f****t and tell you as far as they are concerned what you do is disgusting and wrong, if you tell them you're gay. If they don't instantly block you. Because I too spoke with people from these parts of the world. I've been to them too. The idea that these people will somehow miraculously overlook the fact that someone is gay or lesbian, if they prove themselves to be allies of the population, is pure fantasy. It's a nice fantasy, for sure; but that's all it is, fantastic, fictional.
Neither am I saying that the local activists should apply western models of thought in their own countries - which by the way, they are not doing. They should continue to do what they are actually doing, which is show themselves, and make themselves noticed, so that the people who despise them understand that they aren't actually "white people" or "westernised people" or "traitors" but their sons and daughters, and put their money where their mouth is.
So no, what you're saying is said from the comfortable position of a straight dude who can theorise about gay people all he wishes. The reality is that those most likely straight friends of yours consider being "neutral" about gay people as having ideas such as "as long as they don't show their faces and shut up about it they can exist". As for my ideas about history, well, they seem to be working. Especially since gay people are more and more a desirable economic demographic, and they're starting to express their opinions with their feet, and with their wallets.

[An-Tanwir]

No they won't.

I'll give it till June before Biden changes the laws in America

Biden doesn't have the power to "change laws". He's not part of the legislative branch.

Also, why do you support a fascist org, Azov Battalion, and why does your sig say you're Anti-Judaism?

[Nakena]

Nevermind. Novokria's sig says theyre "Anti-Judaism". Also says theyre "Pro-Azov", which is a fascist paramilitary org in Ukraine. This guy is full Nazi.

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

What would be your definition of the Azov Battalion?

[Mercatus]

I mean, I thought that free expression meant I didn’t require justifications, even for views considered “hateful”, but y’know, poor Johnny got his feelings hurt, so therefore people say we need to restrict “hate speech”.

I personally believe that the concept of free speech/expression negates the need for a justification of any kind, no matter what beliefs are espoused. However, when Silicon Valley billionaires have a death grip on pretty much all media, free speech is dead.

Stop pandering to SJWs and cancel culture, and for god sakes don’t feel so offended if someone calls you a name/slur. They’re just words, treat them as such.

[San Lumen]

No they won't.

The
You may want to look at biden's equality bill.

Does it say clergy must preform all marriages? I doubt it because it does im not in favor of that.

[Caraani]

And this is just you being a gadfly on a forum on the internet because Coronavirus made you miss the opportunity to do it in person at your philosophy lesson. We're discussing real people getting killed, not the objectivity of western morality.

No, we're discussing that your political strategy has failed and you're falling back on abstract concepts and moral condemnations because you don't have a back-up plan for actually convincing people on the ground to support LGBT people.

I don't need to convince people on the ground to support LGBT people. Please check what we were actually talking about.

[An-Tanwir]

Nevermind. Novokria's sig says theyre "Anti-Judaism". Also says theyre "Pro-Azov", which is a fascist paramilitary org in Ukraine. This guy is full Nazi.

Lol a fascist paramilitary? no you are brainwashed by the anti-European media

Mhm. And the founding member claiming the group has a "historic mission" to lead the "white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival ... a crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen"? Is that propaganda too?

Also, what do you mean by "Anti-European"?