(TRIGGER WARNING) On the topic of rape and abortion

[RoboScorpions]

Female on male rape is a fairly unknown quantity, with very little data published on rates/effects on it's victims. In many countries, it is not even recognised as "something that happens", although one study has estimated that 10.5% of men are victims of rape, whilst another study by the CDC reports that 5.9% of men have been "forced to penetrate", and this is widely reported to be perpetrated by a female offender (approximately 80% of cases).

Since this is an area which is likely to become more and more relevant as society changes and more victims of female on male rape start to feel confident enough to come forwards, it is probably fair to say that there is likely to be more discussion around this topic in the future.

My question is, what rights/responsibilities should a man have towards a child conceived by the act of rape by a female perpetrator?
Current laws regarding abortion in most western countries generally regard the decision as being solely that of the woman involved (rightly, in my opinion, although I accept this is still controversial to some, and I do not wish for this thread to devolve into a generic abortion thread). As far as I am aware, there have not been any legal cases regarding a pregnancy which has been conceived through female on male rape, but to be fair, I have not carried out an exhaustive search.

Can we really ethically argue that a man who was raped should be forced to take on parental responsibility for a child they do not want? And to take this a step further, is there any justification to be made with regards to removing the female rapist's right to make the decision?

My own views on this (for what it's worth) are that no rape victim should have to deal with the added trauma of having to navigate the minefield of having a child as a product of their own rape. I believe this when it comes to female victims, and I believe the same applies to male victims, so I would tentatively support allowing a female rapist to be forced to undergo an abortion of pregnancy in some circumstances. and wholeheartedly support the idea of allowing male rape victims complete and total anonymity and zero responsibilities with regards to children conceived through rape.

I am, despite that, somewhat uncomfortable with the idea, and am very much open to other people's thoughts and opinions on what I believe to be an incredibly difficult and complex issue.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Men owe zero child support to a rapist, just like how a woman doesn't owe it to a rapist to birth their child.

[RoboScorpions]

Men owe zero child support to a rapist, just like how a woman doesn't owe it to a rapist to birth their child.

I think that's a reasonable stance, but am curious about your opinion regarding the continuation of the pregnancy?

[Fedel]

How are we defining "rape."

[Punished UMN]

Men owe zero child support to a rapist, just like how a woman doesn't owe it to a rapist to birth their child.

Even so, they may owe it to their child.

[Fedel]

Men owe zero child support to a rapist, just like how a woman doesn't owe it to a rapist to birth their child.

Even so, they may owe it to their child.

Why would they? If a man raped a woman, impregnated her and then died committing a crime, should the woman have her pay docked into perpetuity to raise her rapist's child?

Lmao.

[Punished UMN]

Even so, they may owe it to their child.

Why would they? If a man raped a woman, impregnated her and then died committing a crime, should the woman have her pay docked into perpetuity to raise her rapist's child?

Lmao.

The question doesn't even make sense in the context of the thread. Even assuming she carries the child to term, why would her pay be docked?

[Kowani]

i'm sure this will be productive

[Fedel]

Why would they? If a man raped a woman, impregnated her and then died committing a crime, should the woman have her pay docked into perpetuity to raise her rapist's child?

Lmao.

The question doesn't even make sense in the context of the thread. Even assuming she carries the child to term, why would her pay be docked?

You just said that a man in the exact same situation might be obligated to pay child support to their rapist's child. Do you not believe this is the case for women?

[Punished UMN]

The question doesn't even make sense in the context of the thread. Even assuming she carries the child to term, why would her pay be docked?

You just said that a man in the exact same situation might be obligated to pay child support to their rapist's child. Do you not believe this is the case for women?

You don't pay child support to a child that's in your custody.

[Fedel]

You just said that a man in the exact same situation might be obligated to pay child support to their rapist's child. Do you not believe this is the case for women?

You don't pay child support to a child that's in your custody.

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here. The post you responded to asserts that victims or rape do not owe their rapist or their rapist's child anything. You asserted that they might owe their rapist's child something with no other context such as the child being in that person's "custody." Have I missed something?

[Punished UMN]

You don't pay child support to a child that's in your custody.

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here. The post you responded to asserts that victims or rape do not owe their rapist or their rapist's child anything. You asserted that they might owe their rapist's child something with no other context such as the child being in that person's "custody." Have I missed something?

Who would the woman be paying child support to? Who else would have custody of her child? You said the father's dead, either she has sole custody, or gave it up for adoption, so she doesn't have to pay child support, it's a pretty simple concept

[Fedel]

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here. The post you responded to asserts that victims or rape do not owe their rapist or their rapist's child anything. You asserted that they might owe their rapist's child something with no other context such as the child being in that person's "custody." Have I missed something?

Who would the woman be paying child support to? Who else would have custody of her child? You said the father's dead, either she has sole custody, or gave it up for adoption, so she doesn't have to pay child support, it's a pretty simple concept

Just to clarify, you're asserting that this post:

Men owe zero child support to a rapist, just like how a woman doesn't owe it to a rapist to birth their child.

Even so, they may owe it to their child.

Was in reference to a raped male taking their rapist's child into their custody and deciding to raise them and in THOSE circumstances he'd owe something and not necessarily in others? If that is what you meant, I'll just say that your original statement in no way makes it clear that that's your position and I'll ask again if you think that's a standard that women should be held to as well ( the answer to this should be obvious, but then, it's a sign of the times that stuff like this needs to be clarified ).

[Punished UMN]

Who would the woman be paying child support to? Who else would have custody of her child? You said the father's dead, either she has sole custody, or gave it up for adoption, so she doesn't have to pay child support, it's a pretty simple concept

Just to clarify, you're asserting that this post:

Even so, they may owe it to their child.

Was in reference to a raped male taking their rapist's child into their custody and deciding to raise them and in THOSE circumstances he'd owe something and not necessarily in others? If that is what you meant, I'll just say that your original statement in no way makes it clear that that's your position and I'll ask again if you think that's a standard that women should be held to as well ( the answer to this should be obvious, but then, it's a sign of the times that stuff like this needs to be clarified ).

The standard doesn't apply to women because they automatically have custody of their children, there's no one they would be able to pay child support to. I don't know what part of this you're having trouble with.

[Stellar Colonies]

This is probably something which could be added into the Feminism thread, although it is a thorny enough issue to merit one of its own.

Personally, I do not believe that a rape victim should be compelled to interact with their rapist in any way, considering the negative effects that would have on their life. This question, but mirrored with a male rapist and a female victim, intersects with the debate on abortion, which makes it contentious in general.

By contrast, the question of a female rapist and a male victim is more clear-cut, considering men are not as physically attached to their children as women are before the child is born. Since he is a victim in this, and there is really no reason to force him to stay with her unless he wants to protect the child from, well, a literal rapist, I don't see any obligation for him to stay around with the rapist if he doesn't wish to do so, and forcing him to pay child support to his rapist is an incredibly f*cked up thing to do.

Unfortunately though, this absolute travesty of a court decision has essentially given a green light for underage(?) girls to rape underage boys and force child support payments out of them when they reach the age of a majority, so we have a great deal of work to do on this problem.

[Fedel]

Just to clarify, you're asserting that this post:



Was in reference to a raped male taking their rapist's child into their custody and deciding to raise them and in THOSE circumstances he'd owe something and not necessarily in others? If that is what you meant, I'll just say that your original statement in no way makes it clear that that's your position and I'll ask again if you think that's a standard that women should be held to as well ( the answer to this should be obvious, but then, it's a sign of the times that stuff like this needs to be clarified ).

The standard doesn't apply to women because they automatically have custody of their children, there's no one they would be able to pay child support to. I don't know what part of this you're having trouble with.

I think we may be talking about very different things. Were you asserting an opinion on who you personally believe should be held responsible or a legal distinction?

[RoboScorpions]

How are we defining "rape."

Sexual intercourse without consent

[The Marlborough]

If the woman is convicted of rape and has a child, chances are she wouldn't have custody and either the man will have custody in which case child support from him is moot or he's placed them up for adoption which once again means it is moot.

[Fedel]

How are we defining "rape."

Sexual intercourse without consent

Going by this definition, correct?

[Punished UMN]

The standard doesn't apply to women because they automatically have custody of their children, there's no one they would be able to pay child support to. I don't know what part of this you're having trouble with.

I think we may be talking about very different things. Were you asserting an opinion on who you personally believe should be held responsible or a legal distinction?

I was asserting that people are generally responsible for the safety of their children. I don't think you understand what is meant by child support. A woman who is raped literally cannot pay child support, because she would have custody of the child. She would be the recipient of child support payments.

[Fedel]

I think we may be talking about very different things. Were you asserting an opinion on who you personally believe should be held responsible or a legal distinction?

I was asserting that people are generally responsible for the safety of their children. I don't think you understand what is meant by child support. A woman who is raped literally cannot pay child support, because she would have custody of the child. She would be the recipient of child support payments.

Ah, so your post was pre-assuming the male rape victim had assumed custody of their rapist's child. Gotcha.

[Punished UMN]

I was asserting that people are generally responsible for the safety of their children. I don't think you understand what is meant by child support. A woman who is raped literally cannot pay child support, because she would have custody of the child. She would be the recipient of child support payments.

Ah, so your post was pre-assuming the male rape victim had assumed custody. Gotcha.

No, a male rape victim who has custody wouldn't pay child support, he would be the recipient of child support.

Child support is payment made by a parent without (or with less) custody to a parent who has (or has more) custody to cover childcare expenses. People who have sole custody do not pay child support.

[Fedel]

Ah, so your post was pre-assuming the male rape victim had assumed custody. Gotcha.

No, a male rape victim who has custody wouldn't pay child support, he would be the recipient of child support.

Child support is payment made by a parent without (or with less) custody to a parent who has (or has more) custody to cover childcare expenses. People who have sole custody do not pay child support.

Honestly, you seem to be acting purposefully obtuse here. Can you, and assuming you can, will you elaborate on what you intended to get across with this post:



Are you stating that if the rapist has custody over the child she bears ( which I assume she wouldn't under most legal systems ) the man may legally owe child support on that basis? If so, that's fine and it's not something I care to discuss.

My only question is whether or not you were making an assertion based on a personal opinion or not. Let's verify that first with a simple "yes" or "no" before we proceed.

[Punished UMN]

No, a male rape victim who has custody wouldn't pay child support, he would be the recipient of child support.

Child support is payment made by a parent without (or with less) custody to a parent who has (or has more) custody to cover childcare expenses. People who have sole custody do not pay child support.

Honestly, you seem to be acting purposefully obtuse here. Can you, and assuming you can, will you elaborate on what you intended to get across with this post:

That child support would still be owed even if a man was raped because he is still legally a father.

[Fedel]

Honestly, you seem to be acting purposefully obtuse here. Can you, and assuming you can, will you elaborate on what you intended to get across with this post:

(Image)

That child support would still be owed even if a man was raped because he is still legally a father.

Ah, damn. I tacked this on as you were responding to my post but I still have the same followups for you given the way you choose to respond:

Are you stating that if the rapist has custody over the child she bears ( which I assume she wouldn't under most legal systems ) the man may legally owe child support on that basis? If so, that's fine and it's not something I care to discuss.

My only question is whether or not you were making an assertion based on a personal opinion or not. Let's verify that first with a simple "yes" or "no" before we proceed.